Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

[AddyTheWrath]

I dunno ask Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, they've been in Pittsburgh for what 16 years? They've talent always put in around them over and over again, have they not?

Can only win 1 Cup? Why here's a THIRD guy who's a franchise star for you to play with, go get two more. MAF not good enough, here we'll just pull Matt Murray out of our ass. Would you like to play with Jarome Iginla?

I think once you get 3-4 stars out of the 1st round you're good. You don't need to keep going back to the well or collecting 1st round picks like a fat 40 year old collecting Pokemon cards. Even if you do that like what is the plan, you're going to sign all of those players to $9 million dollar contracts? You're good dude, start filling the blanks on the rest of the roster.

We totally fell in love too hard with the concept that picking 1st round picks would solve all the team issues, when really actually none of the 1st round picks on this team have solved even 1 issue the team has (like even Bouchard, we would've been good with Barrie too who we got for 0 asset cost).

The best pick the Oilers have made in the last 8 years since getting McDavid is probably picking Stuart Skinner in the 3rd round. So like he's made more of a difference on this team than all the 1st round guys. You don't need to worship at the altar of 1st round picks. Once you got a few really, really good ones (which we did) move on already sheesh, get on with the business of actual team building.

Crosby and Malkin stayed because the won. We don’t have that luxury.

The rest of your post is just rambling and doesn’t address my point. With one eye on the present you also need to one eye on the future. Otherwise be prepared for another decade of darkness if McDrai leave.

There’s a reason teams don’t get better all at once. It takes time to build up, identify the right players, and get them. Not everyone is available just cuz you want them to be. And if you want a case study in spending everything too quickly when your team isn’t good enough, take a look at the Vancouver Canucks.

In any case, this seems like a really stupid thing to be arguing about when the team is playing as well as it is.

 

[Soundwave]

Crosby and Malkin stayed because the won. We don’t have that luxury.

The rest of your post is just rambling and doesn’t address my point. With one eye on the present you also need to one eye on the future. Otherwise be prepared for another decade of darkness if McDrai leave.

There’s a reason teams don’t get better all at once. It takes time to build up, identify the right players, and get them. Not everyone is available just cuz you want them to be. And if you want a case study in spending everything too quickly when your team isn’t good enough, take a look at the Vancouver Canucks.

In any case, this seems like a really stupid thing to be arguing about when the team is playing as well as it is.

Replace Petterson and Horvat with McDavid and Draisaitl on the Canucks and I think they'd be doing fine. Their philosophy is not that bad, case in point JT Miller IS better than the generic 1st round pick in most cases that you would get (way better honestly).

Petterson is just not a Crosby/McDavid/Ovechkin tier player, but if they had that tier of player they'd be fine.

Like you can acknowledge and support that team and still admit we did a lot of shit wrong, it's not some f***ing family secret you have to protect at all costs. Everyone knows, we haven't really been knocking it out of the park in terms of great moves. We're getting closer to competency now in terms of management but that's where we're at, still getting there.

Decisions like banking heavily on Yamamoto/Puljujarvi hard (which is OK I guess if you have no choice but when there were like 10 better options available in the summer ... it's valid criticism) and signing Jack Campbell to a 5 year deal are still signs of a management group that aren't the brightest bulb in the pack.

Like thank goodness the Chiarelli era is over, no one was louder and more critical of that group than me here long before it was popular to point it out, but just because we're better than that now doesn't mean we have one of the smart management groups in the league.

 

[MessierII]

Replace Petterson and Horvat with McDavid and Draisaitl on the Canucks and I think they'd be doing fine.

With that D? I doubt it.

 

[Soundwave]

With that D? I doubt it.

With Demko behind it I think they'd be fine.

Beyond though I don't think the Canucks philosophy in itself is wrong entirely. JT Miller IS way better than a Podkolzine or Yamamoto or Puljujarvi or even Boeser ... everyone thinks every 1st round pick is going to be a superstar when really that's not the case for guys taken 5th or later in most cases.

I think their major mistake was losing Tanev though. It was clear he was the glue guy for them on their back end and helped Hughes a lot too ... and they let him walk for 4 million bucks? Dude wanted to stay and wasn't even asking for a lot of money or term. I understand Demko over Markstrom (the right call) but letting Tanev walk and then spending the money on guys like Tyler Myers, Ethan Bear, and even OEL? Yikes.

 

[MessierII]

With Demko behind it I think they'd be fine.

Beyond though I don't think the Canucks philosophy in itself is wrong entirely. JT Miller IS way better than a Podkolzine or Yamamoto or Puljujarvi or even Boeser ... everyone thinks every 1st round pick is going to be a superstar when really that's not the case for guys taken 5th or later in most cases.

I think their major mistake was losing Tanev though. It was clear he was the glue guy for them on their back end and helped Hughes a lot too ... and they let him walk for 4 million bucks? Dude wanted to stay and wasn't even asking for a lot of money or term. I understand Demko over Markstrom (the right call) but letting Tanev walk and then spending the money on guys like Tyler Myers, Ethan Bear, and even OEL? Yikes.

Yeah I don’t know Demko has even crumbled behind that D. I agree on Tanev but. I think Canucks made a huge mistake going for OEL. Screwed their cap situation and made it harder to improve the D.

 

[Soundwave]

Yeah I don’t know Demko has even crumbled behind that D. I agree on Tanev but. I think Canucks made a huge mistake going for OEL. Screwed their cap situation and made it harder to improve the D.

He had a poor stretch earlier this year but I think he was hurt because since coming back from injury his numbers have shot up again. So I attribute that to more of a one time thing.

The Tanev thing is just baffling, it's not even like he was asking for a lot of money. We agreed to pay Kris Russell almost the same contract, lol.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Simple Q: if the Oilers fail to win a playoff round what would be the feeling about Holland? He had a great TDL, he did exactly what I wanted him to. But there’s still a long road ahead and nothing is guaranteed.

If they fail to win a playoff round its on the players.
Its incredible the team that he has assembled (yes there were some errors but every, every GM has them). Yet somehow he has done a bad job if they don't win? Some geniuses say only a Cup says hes done a good job.

I mean he ideally should've upgraded the defense from the get-go. Once again, better late than never.

Which great dmen were available? 2nd rounder for Doughty? That one

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Whatever, heard this same shit before on this board with people saying "you have no clue, Chiarelli is a real NHL manager with Stanley Cup winning pedigree, who are you to criticize him! How dare you question the company line" ... and two years later they didn't have shit to say, lol.

Sorry I don't buy your logic that this year and this year only is the ONLY year in the last eight years where the Oilers could've traded draft picks to make the team better immediately and give McDavid and Draisaitl real help. The logic behind that is just stupid to begin with (there's only one good player available for picks every 8 years!).

Chiarelli won a Stanley Cup. According to you, that makes a guy a good GM. Too funny
Btw, you were the guy who thought a Nurse & Drai trade for Oliver Ekman Larsson and
Dylan Strome.
Yeah, I think we are good without that.

2 or 3 years ago? For their 1st + like Puljujarvi the Oilers probably could've landed a player like Hampus Lindholm (now on the Bruins).

People can give me shit about this all they want but show me a team with like 10 1st round picks (home grown selected) on any good NHL team.

No one f***ing builds that way because it's a stupid, slow motion way of building a team. Thank god some urgency was finally put into a management team here because Draisaitl's contract is ticking down and even they aren't dumb enough to ignore that.

This is kinda odd. Not too long ago you were pumped about signing Puju & thought it was great value.

 

[Soundwave]

Chiarelli won a Stanley Cup. According to you, that makes a guy a good GM. Too funny
Btw, you were the guy who thought a Nurse & Drai trade for Oliver Ekman Larsson and
Dylan Strome.
Yeah, I think we are good without that.


This is kinda odd. Not too long ago you were pumped about signing Puju & thought it was great value.

Are you just pulling random shit out of your ass now? Got a bridge up there too? When and where did I ever suggest that?

You can ask belair who is a regular poster here what I thought about adding OEL when he was suggesting that last summer.

Dylan Strome I wanted over Puljujarvi and Yamamoto yes, when there was a chance to buy low on him. He is better than Puljujarvi or Yamamoto and that's even more obvious today.

That actually is the strategy the Oilers should have employed more often -- buying low on discarded 1st round picks and reclaiming them for a cheap cost, not overvaluing magic bean picks of their own and hoping that after 4-5 years they'd be star players.

No one on this board was as vocal of a critic of Chiarelli so lol that probably isn't the tree you want to be barking up if you want to look like you're some kind of gotcha wizard.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Are you just pulling random shit out of your ass now? Got a bridge up there too? When and where did I ever suggest that.

Are you just pulling random shit out of your ass now? Got a bridge up there too? When and where did I ever suggest that?

You can ask belair who is a regular poster here what I thought about adding OEL when he was suggesting that last summer.

Dylan Strome I wanted over Puljujarvi and Yamamoto yes, when there was a chance to buy low on him. He is better than Puljujarvi or Yamamoto and that's even more obvious today.

That actually is the strategy the Oilers should have employed more often -- buying low on discarded 1st round picks and reclaiming them for a cheap cost, not overvaluing magic bean picks of their own and hoping that after 4-5 years they'd be star players.

No one on this board was as vocal of a critic of Chiarelli so lol that probably isn't the tree you want to be barking up if you want to look like you're some kind of gotcha wizard.

If his agent is being really unreasonable, this is the type of type I'd think long and hard about.

Leon Draisaitl
Darnell Nurse

for

Oliver Ekman Larsson
Dylan Strome

Sign UFA Jaromir Jagr (x1 year)

Maroon McDavid R.Strome
Lucic RNH Jagr
Caggiula D.Strome Kassian
Khaira Letestu Slepyshev
Puljujarvi

OEL Larsson
Klefbom Sekera
Russell Benning
Gryba

Talbot
Broissoit

McDavid loses his two buds in Leon and Nurse, but gains his Erie buddie Dylan Strome. That d-corps is quite good, like Stanley Cup good. Might not an add to the forward group at the deadline, plus Strome (x2) and Larsson (x2), lol.

Hi.
All I can say is, thank god you're not the GM. It would be like Chia all over again.
Im not going through the effort again to see when you were waiving the pom poms over the Puju signing last summer.

 

[Soundwave]

Hi.
All I can say is, thank god you're not the GM. It would be like Chia all over again.
Im not going through the effort again to see when you were waiving the pom poms over the Puju signing last summer.

Lol you’re cherry picking posts from like 6 years ago without context?

The context there I believe was he wanted as much as McDavid and his agent was not willing to sign a reasonable deal which wasn’t the reality of the situation but that was what I was responding to.

But it’s flattering you’re that far up my ass that hang onto to things I mentioned one time over half a decade ago lol

What was your alt back then btw?

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Lol you’re cherry picking posts from like 6 years ago without context?

The context there I believe was he wanted as much as McDavid and his agent was not willing to sign a reasonable deal which wasn’t the reality of the situation but that was what I was responding to.

But it’s flattering you’re that far up my ass that hang onto to things I mentioned one time over half a decade ago lol

What was your alt back then btw?

No alt buddy. I just think you'd be quite the GM. Likely could exceed Chia if you employed the same crystal ball as you exhibit in the threads here.
The real funny thing is that you basically denied ever making such an insanely stupid proposal.

 

[Soundwave]

No alt buddy. I just think you'd be quite the GM. Likely could exceed Chia if you employed the same crystal ball as you exhibit in the threads here.
The real funny thing is that you basically denied ever making such an insanely stupid proposal.

If this was ever appropriate

But please do keep remembering and cherry picking one off posts that I made 8 years ago, lol.

My views on the GM/owner are plain ... they're not cute/cuddly mascots I have to like. I cheer for the players/team and sure you develop an affinity for players personalites, but to me that's the beginning and end of it. I don't give a f*** about the owner/GM other than they hold up their end of the bargain. I'm not a fanboy for an owner or a GM nor do I feel I have to defend them.

The bargain was always simple: McDavid holds up his end (which is to be the best player in the world and a generational player as he was hyped to be) and then the management holds up their end of the bargain which is to give him a supporting cast capable of winning a Cup in a reasonable time frame. Simple as that. If people want to cry about me putting the bar too high, well that's perfectly reasonable to me, I don't need to win friends on this one.

I don't need to like Ken Holland or Peter Chiarelli or Daryl Katz, frankly I never really liked Peter Pocklington much either and I didn't even really care to know who the 8000000 people on EIG were just how much money they were giving the team to spend.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

If this was ever appropriate

But please do keep remembering and cherry picking one off posts that I made 8 years ago, lol.

My views on the GM/owner are plain ... they're not cute/cuddly mascots I have to like. I cheer for the players/team, I don't give a f*** about the owner/GM other than they hold up their end of the bargain. I'm not a fanboy for an owner or a GM nor do I feel I have to defend them.

The bargain was always simple: McDavid holds up his end of the bargain (which is to be the best player in the world and a generational player) and then the management holds up their end of the bargain which is to give him a supporting cast capable of winning a Cup in a reasonable time frame. Simple as that. If people want to cry about me putting the bar too high, well that's perfectly reasonable to me, I don't need to win friends on this one.

Yes, its clear. You have legitimately high expectations.
If only we were actually as smart today as we will be in a few years in retrospect. Most recognize it doesnt work that way however.
A few others, not so much.

 

[Soundwave]

Yes, its clear. You have legitimately high expectations.
If only we were actually as smart today as we will be in a few years in retrospect. Most recognize it doesnt work that way however.
A few others, not so much.

Yeah sorry I just don't buy the whole "well it's haaaaaaaaaaaard and no one can do this job well without the magic of hindsight!".

It's not *that* hard when you have the two best players in the world that anyone should feel sorry for the Oilers management (Holland or even Chiarelli).

You think Calgary or Vancouver or Winnipeg probably like 10 other franchises wouldn't trade every player they've had the last 15 years to just start with McDavid alone? Every one of their fans would bend over backwards and kiss their own ass for that even if they won't admit it.

So yeah the whole "yeah but you have to understand it's sooooooo hard" shit went out the window that one April day in 2015.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Yeah sorry I just don't buy the whole "well it's haaaaaaaaaaaard and no one can do this job well without the magic of hindsight!".

It's not *that* hard when you have the two best players in the world that anyone should feel sorry for the Oilers management (Holland or even Chiarelli).

You think Calgary or Vancouver or Winnipeg probably like 10 other franchises wouldn't trade every player they've had the last 15 years to just start with McDavid alone? Every one of their fans would bend over backwards and kiss their own ass for that even if they won't admit it.

So yeah the whole "yeah but you have to understand it's sooooooo hard" shit went out the window that one April day in 2015.

True, but you'd think a guy would be a little circumspect knowing that not everyone has the magic crystal ball . And looking at things thru that lens. Guess not though.
But then again, if one isn't circumspect after making perhaps the worst proposal that has ever been seen on HF Oilers, I guess my expectations are a bit high.
You werent the guy who thought McDavid was overrated after his 1st few games were you?

 

[Soundwave]

True, but you'd think a guy would be a little circumspect knowing that not everyone has the magic crystal ball . And looking at things thru that lens. Guess not though.
But then again, if one isn't circumspect after making perhaps the worst proposal that has ever been seen on HF Oilers, I guess my expectations are a bit high.
You werent the guy who thought McDavid was overrated after his 1st few games were you?

My expectation for McDavid was and is to this day, right now today that he be the best player in the world and a generational player.

He's held up his end of the bargain.

The Oilers management side of that bargain is they give him a team that he can win a Cup with.

That is still a question mark 8 years later.

I'm not interested in excuses about "well it's hard if you don't have a crystal ball", you know what else is hard? Trying to win a Cup without a Connor McDavid tier player, but last I checked 31 other teams still get out of bed and some succeed in doing it so it can't be impossible.

I think the difference some people need to make the GM + owner like parts of the team directly, to me I learned long ago not to fall into that trap. They're employees with a specific job, they're not like the players, I wouldn't pay 10 cents to watch Daryl Katz or Ken Holland play any sport or do anything for that matter.

 

[Lay Z Boy GM]

Hollands about to get a new banner in the rafters. Fire him into the hall of fame when it’s all said and done

 

[Ol' Jase]

The only reason for this thread to still have so much traction is a mindset along the lines of “F*** Holland, I would have won a Cup by now if I was GM.”

 

[CupofOil]

I think we should have followed a model more like the Penguins where they traded away plenty of 1st round picks, and you know what they don't give a flying f*** about it today.

People also underestimate how much just adding even "1 good player" can do to a team like McDavid/Draisaitl. They don't need much help. Last year basically they got Evander Kane (thank you Anna Kane for being nuts) and said "alright, well guess we'll just drag this team to a conference final".

So yeah I think there is a fair case to be made "well why weren't some better players like that added before?".

Nothing unreasonable about that at all.

If you look at the Pens cup rosters, not one of their key players was acquired by a 1st. Most were homegrown, some were player for player trades (Dumoulin for Staal namely) but trading 1sts is not what won them Cups. In fact, them trading all those 1sts for rentals mostly is why they have no future now, no way to transition into the next phase.

Regardless, why does the past matter now? Holland, with his patient approach, has built the best roster the Oilers have had in decades with a pipeline of prospects (those 1sts) that will be ready to filter in soon and help extend the competitive window. Also, being patient is what allowed them to acquire Ekholm because if Holland traded the 1st (Schaefer) last year for...whoever, they don't get Ekholm this season. Holland had a long term plan and now he's starting to bear the fruit of his patience. If they don't make a legit Cup run or three in the next 3 years, it won't be due to Holland not supplying them with a good enough roster to make a run. Now it's up to the players to execute.

 

[Soundwave]

The only reason for this thread to still have so much traction is a mindset along the lines of “F*** Holland, I would have won a Cup by now if I was GM.”

A championship should be expected in any sport when you have a generational talent.

End of discussion.

If Kevin Lowe can get to a Stanley Cup final as a manager it's clearly not impossible, excuses are for losers.

 

[guymez]

Name one team that doesn't have an overpayment.

To complain about Foegele (who has been pretty good in his role for the most part) when the team is in the midst of one of its best runs in 30 years seems fruitless.

Yes we're all aware that Holland isn't perfect and has some overpays on his record. Maybe he should have addressed the defense sooner. Does it really matter now?

Foegele would be leading the Flames in even strength goals.

 

[OilynutEsquire]

Kenny Holland knows what he is doing, 99.99% of hockey fans would be trash GM's

 

[JustNapalmIt]

A championship should be expected in any sport when you have a generational talent.

End of discussion.

If Kevin Lowe can get to a Stanley Cup final as a manager it's clearly not impossible, excuses are for losers.

For a guy who luvvved the Puju signing and was all in on a Nurse & Drai trade for Ekman Larsson & Strome, you sure are not very understanding that no one has a crystal ball.
You have quite a few others too.

The only reason for this thread to still have so much traction is a mindset along the lines of “F*** Holland, I would have won a Cup by now if I was GM.”

Maybe I guess. If you think Ekman Larson & Strome would have put us over the top while not having Drai & Nurse.
Im sure we can all agree its a bold move.

 

[Soundwave]

For a guy who luvvved the Puju signing and was all in on a Nurse & Drai trade for Ekman Larsson & Strome, you sure are not very understanding that no one has a crystal ball.
You have quite a few others too.

If Crosby + Malkin have 3 Cups, I don't think asking for 1 when McDavid + Draisaitl have shown themselves to be fairly equivalent maybe even better is unreasonable.

There's RNH and Nurse and Bouchard already in the cupboards and another top 10 pick when Holland inherited the team too so it's not like there was absolutely zero here to work with.

And no again the Draisaitl thing you took out of context was out of spite because as I recall McDavid signed first and then there was a hold up signing Draisaitl and the rumors were abound that Draisaitl's agent was holding the Oilers hostage and trying to get a contract north of 10 or 11+ million (which he hadn't even come close to earning at that time) something close to McDavid and my response to that was "go blow chunks" basically. Of course it turned out that wasn't the truth and his camp wanted 8.5, not something right around the same as McDavid.

I am one of Leon's biggest backers, even more than Drivesaitl who was giving it to him earlier this year, I know plain and simple Leon gets gassed when you play him to death with Connor because Connor has superhuman stamina and Leon isn't on that tier. You can't utilize him that way and then expect non-stop performance, you gas the poor guy out. That's why he has those shitty December months. I don't give him a lot of shit because really it's a coaching/roster issue if you're playing Leon 25+ minutes a night ... next to McDavid for a lot of those minutes.

I don't want to hear excuses about how it's how to build a team around the two best players in the world. If I'm solo in the camp I could give zero f***s. Do or do not. But excuses are for people who aren't good enough for their job. Plain and simple.