Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

[JustNapalmIt]

You're aware that a star basketball player has much more control over how good their team is right?

Come on now. Let’s not talk logic, common sense.

 

[trick91]

Come on now. Let’s not talk logic, common sense.

Same with a QB in football. Not to mention NBA and MLB have no salary caps.

 

[Soundwave]

Same with a QB in football. Not to mention NBA and MLB have no salary caps.

The bottom line is expectations will be high when you have a player who is not only the MVP but having an absolute generational season. The 95-96 Penguins that keep getting brought up as that was the last time anyone was scoring at the rate McDavid is ... they finished (guess where) in their division.

I mean winning the division is a low bar to be honest when you have a player having this kind of season. Not to mention RNH, Hyman, Draisaitl on top of that.

People just need to stop whining about this. This is what you have when you have top end talent ... people expect top end results. No f***ing excuses or crying about "well this and this" ... no one wants to hear that shit.

It's not like the Oilers have had a terrible season, but they should have more wins than what they have and the GM has ownership of that. There should be significant separation between them and a team like ... Seattle. Nothing crazy or unreasonable about that. Until you build a team that has the best player in the game in the Cup Final and competitive in that Cup final, your job as a GM is not done. Period.

And no "wah wah, it's not basketball" is not an excuse either. A hockey player putting up a 60+ goal pace and 150+ point rate is a monstrous advantage over what any other hockey GM has, it's not some little bonus.

 

[MessierII]

Hopefully Oilers fans don’t become like Canuck fans did in that way. Where there’s zero excitement in the city during the regular season and they couldn’t even sell tickets to the first round of the playoffs because the fans kept on moving the goalposts to what they considered an acceptable and successful season. I guess it also allows fans to be constantly pessimistic and generally negative, which for some here is their MO

Sure... How about we give kudos to Holland then for adding enough depth that MessierII doesn't have to worry about regular season.


Name the new guy that isn't EK..

Top pair RDs don't grow on trees and don't become available..

We are looking at Klingbergs , Paraykos and Dumbas of NHL .. Ceci might actually be the best RHD out of this bunch

Point is we’re a playoff team and that’s never really been in question. We’ve been a playoff team for years now. Our success or failure comes in the postseason. Whether we finish 1st or 2nd, 3rd etc in the division means nothing to me.

 

[LTIR]

Point is we’re a playoff team and that’s never really been in question. We’ve been a playoff team for years now. Our success or failure comes in the postseason. Whether we finish 1st or 2nd, 3rd etc in the division means nothing to me.

Not a good point. There is a lot of parity in this league and teams like COL, PIT, WSH, STL and FLA were considered as good if not better than us. All of them are fighting for their playoff lives.

Having McDavid on the team doesn't guarantee us anything.

 

[MessierII]

Not a good point. There is a lot of parity in this league and teams like COL, PIT, WSH, STL and FLA were considered as good if not better than us. All of them are fighting for their playoff lives.

Having McDavid on the team doesn't guarantee us anything.

Did I miss something are we in some danger of missing?

 

[LTIR]

Did I miss something are we in some danger of missing?

We were until Flames choked and we Desharnais'd the defense. Are you thinking that we are somehow the Bruins of the West?
In either case you are praising Holland in a fire Holland thread..
He built a powerhouse that is guaranteed playoffs as per you.

 

[Arpeggio]

The bottom line is expectations will be high when you have a player who is not only the MVP but having an absolute generational season. The 95-96 Penguins that keep getting brought up as that was the last time anyone was scoring at the rate McDavid is ... they finished (guess where) in their division.

I mean winning the division is a low bar to be honest when you have a player having this kind of season. Not to mention RNH, Hyman, Draisaitl on top of that.

People just need to stop whining about this. This is what you have when you have top end talent ... people expect top end results. No f***ing excuses or crying about "well this and this" ... no one wants to hear that shit.

It's not like the Oilers have had a terrible season, but they should have more wins than what they have and the GM has ownership of that. There should be significant separation between them and a team like ... Seattle. Nothing crazy or unreasonable about that. Until you build a team that has the best player in the game in the Cup Final and competitive in that Cup final, your job as a GM is not done. Period.

And no "wah wah, it's not basketball" is not an excuse either. A hockey player putting up a 60+ goal pace and 150+ point rate is a monstrous advantage over what any other hockey GM has, it's not some little bonus.

The Oilers aren't winning the division for two reasons:

1) Campbell's performance

2) Horrendous OT record

If Campbell was league average, or even slightly below, they'd be among the top teams in the league in goal differential, and would obviously have at least a couple more wins (modestly). OT record is second worst in the league, which is likely an outlier, and is probably the difference between first in the division and where they currently are.

I'm not even disagreeing with you, I think this team should be putting up seasons closer to the Bruins than the Kraken given the talent at the top of the roster. I think that's where an addition like Erik Karlsson in the offseason gets you. But they do have the second most regulation wins in the entire league, and in my opinion are clearly the best team in the Pacific. Whether they put it together in the playoffs is anyone's guess, but this is an extremely solid roster imo.

 

[MessierII]

We were until Flames choked and we Desharnais'd the defense. Are you thinking that we are somehow the Bruins of the West?
In either case you are praising Holland in a fire Holland thread..
He built a powerhouse that is guaranteed playoffs as per you.

I’m not praising Holland show me where I did that? We aren’t the bruins but we sure aren’t the flames. Missing the playoffs has never really been a danger. I don’t care about winning the division I care about winning the cup. My opinion on hollands work this year will be formed around how close we get to that goal. The standings are meaningless we are comfortably in a spot…..again for the 4th straight year.

 

[Soundwave]

The Oilers aren't winning the division for two reasons:

1) Campbell's performance

2) Horrendous OT record

If Campbell was league average, or even slightly below, they'd be among the top teams in the league in goal differential, and would obviously have at least a couple more wins (modestly). OT record is second worst in the league, which is likely an outlier, and is probably the difference between first in the division and where they currently are.

I'm not even disagreeing with you, I think this team should be putting up seasons closer to the Bruins than the Kraken given the talent at the top of the roster. I think that's where an addition like Erik Karlsson in the offseason gets you. But they do have the second most regulation wins in the entire league, and in my opinion are clearly the best team in the Pacific. Whether they put it together in the playoffs is anyone's guess, but this is an extremely solid roster imo.

Who signed Campbell again?

No one’s even asking for a Bruins like season but being top 5 in the league points wise shouldn’t be a big ask given what McDavid is doing.

For that reason alone Holland deserves zero pats on the back.

 

[Harry Curry]

Sure... How about we give kudos to Holland then for adding enough depth that MessierII doesn't have to worry about regular season.


Name the new guy that isn't EK..

Top pair RDs don't grow on trees and don't become available..

We are looking at Klingbergs , Paraykos and Dumbas of NHL .. Ceci might actually be the best RHD out of this bunch

No human being grows on a tree. You have to develop top pairing RD. That's why an upgrade on Ceci is both needed now and doing so via free agency is only a short term fix.

This is about upgrading on Codi Ceci as Nurse's partner. Maybe Klingberg on a shorter term deal. Two or three years. I'll be shocked if he gets $7M aav again from anybody. No, Ceci is not better than Klingberg. Dumba is going to want term. Parayko is just a ridiculous suggestion. Why would anyone consider Parayko?

Whoever it is a shorter term deal is preferable. See if Bouchard can grow into that top pairing guy. Because as you say top pairing RDs don't become available.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

I’m not praising Holland show me where I did that? We aren’t the bruins but we sure aren’t the flames. Missing the playoffs has never really been a danger. I don’t care about winning the division I care about winning the cup. My opinion on hollands work this year will be formed around how close we get to that goal. The standings are meaningless we are comfortably in a spot…..again for the 4th straight year.

Missing the playoffs was absolutely a danger up until the New Year. I do agree that playoff success>>>regular season standings but we were legit barely above .500 at one point thanks to Campbell.

 

[MessierII]

Missing the playoffs was absolutely a danger up until the New Year. I do agree that playoff success>>>regular season standings but we were legit barely above .500 at one point thanks to Campbell.

They crap the bed for a stretch every year. This year was nothing new. They were always going to come out of it just like they have every year in recent memory.

 

[Soundwave]

They crap the bed for a stretch every year. This year was nothing new. They were always going to come out of it just like they have every year in recent memory.

Its not acceptable to do that every year.

 

[MessierII]

It’s not acceptable to do that every year.

Who cares? We’ve got in every year comfortably. Why do you care about regular season results so much? Would you rather be the Leafs? I don’t remember who won the eastern conference in 2011 I remember Boston won the cup. I don’t remember who won the presidents trophy in 1999 I remember Dallas won the cup. History is made in the playoffs.

 

[nabob]

I’m not praising Holland show me where I did that? We aren’t the bruins but we sure aren’t the flames. Missing the playoffs has never really been a danger. I don’t care about winning the division I care about winning the cup. My opinion on hollands work this year will be formed around how close we get to that goal. The standings are meaningless we are comfortably in a spot…..again for the 4th straight year.

Saying that a team is built well enough to be a very safe bet to be a lock to make the playoffs every year in the NHL is about the highest praise a NHL GM can get.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

They crap the bed for a stretch every year. This year was nothing new. They were always going to come out of it just like they have every year in recent memory.

I've seen those bad stretches devolve into season threatening disasters. 2017-18's November/early December implosion resulted in us missing playoffs. Last season would have too if Tippett had lost, say, 13/14 of 17 games instead of 16 b/c nothing was working with the Tippett system and probably wasn't gonna be fixed before that stretch forced Holland to fire him.

 

[MessierII]

Saying that a team is built well enough to be a very safe bet to be a lock to make the playoffs every year in the NHL is about the highest praise a NHL GM can get.

I disagree

 

[The Nuge]

Saying that a team is built well enough to be a very safe bet to be a lock to make the playoffs every year in the NHL is about the highest praise a NHL GM can get.

Yep. Florida just won the presidents trophy and has a bunch of guys having career years, and they’re on the outside looking in. It’s a massive accomplishment for a team to be a near lock

 

[MessierII]

I've seen those bad stretches devolve into season threatening disasters. 2017-18's November/early December implosion resulted in us missing playoffs. Last season would have too if Tippett had lost, say, 13/14 of 17 games instead of 16 b/c nothing was working with the Tippett system and probably wasn't gonna be fixed before that stretch forced Holland to fire him.

Those teams just weren’t that good. As soon as the Sekera went down those 17-19 teams were doomed. We had to rely on Klefbom staying 100% healthy and that was just not gonna happen. Our roster is on a different planet now.

I mean Colorado had even worse struggles than us this year with their injury woes but did any of you actually for a second think that by game 82 they wouldn’t be in the dance? I sure didn’t.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Those teams just weren’t that good. As soon as the Sekera went down those 17-19 teams were doomed. We had to rely on Klefbom staying 100% healthy and that was just not gonna happen. Our roster is on a different planet now.

I mean Colorado had even worse struggles than us this year with their injury woes but did any of you actually for a second think that by game 82 they wouldn’t be in the dance? I sure didn’t.

Unlike Colorado, we didn't really have injury woes this year. We had Jack Campbell woes. Campbell was single handedly derailing our season, and still can. If we don't win the Cup b/c of goaltending it'll be Campbell's fault regardless of how badly Skinner plays b/c Campbell is the reason Skinner is overworked/will have to start in playoffs whether he's ready or not.

 

[MessierII]

Unlike Colorado, we didn't really have injury woes this year. We had Jack Campbell woes. Campbell was single handedly derailing our season, and still can. If we don't win the Cup b/c of goaltending it'll be Campbell's fault regardless of how badly Skinner plays b/c Campbell is the reason Skinner is overworked/will have to start in playoffs whether he's ready or not.

We absolutely had some injury woes. Not to the extent of Colorado obviously but we missed Kane for most of the year. Coming into the year he was probably our 3rd most important forward. Other support players like Yamamoto, McLeod and Foegele haven’t played well for stretches due to being in and out with injuries. We’ve been far from perfectly healthy all year.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Honestly, I don't see a case that the 2005-2006 team is better. Take Pronger and McDavid away and I think the current team is better. As good as Pronger was McDavid is playing at a level perhaps only matched by Gretzky and Lemieux.

But any team can go on an unsustainable run. There is no chance that Pisani for example duplicates his playoffs.

I think the 2006 team had fewer holes on the roster. Our team is an offensive juggernaut unseen in almost 30 years, but our roster feels uneven with our defense and goaltending. In 2006, we had a HOF D-Man in Pronger, a puck-moving D man in Spacek, an actual great goalie in Roloson, and even a Selke winner in Peca. Stoll and Horcoff were having career years that made them a great 1-2 punch at centre, supported by offensively potent wingers in Smyth, Hemsky, and Samsanov. And yeah, Pisani's unexpected, fleeting brilliance helped a lot too.

Obviously we have waaay more offensive firepower than that team, or maybe any team since the 1996 Pens, but the 2006 Oilers, come playoff time, looked like it had all the necessary pieces. And remember that Roli went down too, yet we still made it to game 7. If Skinner goes down, we are beyond f***ed.

 

[nabob]

I disagree

Is the goal of a NHL not to build a team that is going to make the playoffs and be a perennial favorite to win it all?

Seems like even if they win the cup this year and not next you’ll say he’s a failure because his team doesn’t win the cup every year. Even though it’s proven in that scenario he built a team that’s good enough to win the cup.

 

[MessierII]

Is the goal of a NHL not to build a team that is going to make the playoffs and be a perennial favorite to win it all?

Seems like even if they win the cup this year and not next you’ll say he’s a failure because his team doesn’t win the cup every year. Even though it’s proven in that scenario he built a team that’s good enough to win the cup.

There’s a massive difference between making the playoffs and being a perennial favorite to win it all.