Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

[Soundwave]

"They beat Boston once so the roster must be perfect" is a pretty dumb take, lol.

Did they make the Conference Finals last year because the roster was amazing or because McDavid and Draisaitl went into supernova mode and dragged a half dead d corps, a 40 year old goalie, and a non-contributing bottom 6 to the Conference Final?

 

[MessierThanThou]

Holy crap this place is toxic as hell.

Since Holland has taken over the team has made the playoffs every year and just went to the western conference last year. Hes clearly doing something right.

The problem isnt roster construction. The team literally beat the best team in the league the previous game. The ability is there. The talent is there. However, this is fragile group. They get to high on themselves when things go well and think they can half ass it when they are leading or playing weaker competition. This team clearly has more to off but continues to not only do they take shifts off but they take periods and games off. That speaks volumes to the leaders on the ice and the coaching.

Nurse and Draisaitl continue to lead the team with bonehead decisions and timely turnovers and they are supposed to be our leaders. Woody either needs to hold his guys accountable or they will keep walking all over him. I dont think hes up to the job.

We beat the best team when they played their backup... Their starter is the Vezina frontrunner. I wouldn't be so confident about our chances just yet.

 

[Stoneman89]

Holy crap this place is toxic as hell.

Since Holland has taken over the team has made the playoffs every year and just went to the western conference last year. Hes clearly doing something right.

The problem isnt roster construction. The team literally beat the best team in the league the previous game. The ability is there. The talent is there. However, this is fragile group. They get to high on themselves when things go well and think they can half ass it when they are leading or playing weaker competition. This team clearly has more to off but continues to not only do they take shifts off but they take periods and games off. That speaks volumes to the leaders on the ice and the coaching.

Nurse and Draisaitl continue to lead the team with bonehead decisions and timely turnovers and they are supposed to be our leaders. Woody either needs to hold his guys accountable or they will keep walking all over him. I dont think hes up to the job.

So did the Wings and Hawks, and they laid a beating on them. I'm glad we beat the Bruins, but man, some people were making it out that the cup was ours after that game. And I suspect the team was full of themselves a bit too, until the Leafs gave them a tuning in.

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

Nothing ridiculous about any of this. Expectations are high and the regular season largely as a team hasn't been good enough. Bringing in one good dman doesn't give you a free pass when you have McDavid having the best season the league has seen since like Mario Lemieux 20+ years ago.

That's the job, can't take the heat here, don't take the job, simple as that. You're not owed shit as a GM in this market, and really shouldn't be in any market. If you want to ask "when do I get the benefit of the doubt tho?", when the team has made a Cup Final, that's the *minimum*, period.

The team is going to squeak into the playoffs in a wildcard spot or in 3rd in their division. Sorry that some have higher expectations with the greatest player of this generation scoring at a near 2ppg rate.

Nah, I'll stick with the term I used, "ridiculous".

The fact that we also had a "fire Woody" thread 2 months into his first season after making it to the WCF makes it even more ridiculous.

Although I was on the Flyers board & they already had a "fire Briere" thread that was started BEFORE his son pushed a disabled persons wheelchair down the stairs for no apparent reason so we're in great company when it comes to being ridiculous.

 

[Soundwave]

Nah, I'll stick with the term I used, "ridiculous".

The fact that we also had a "fire Woody" thread 2 months into his first season after making it to the WCF makes it even more ridiculous.

Although I was on the Flyers board & they already had a "fire Briere" thread that was started BEFORE his son pushed a disabled persons wheelchair down the stairs for no apparent reason so we're in great company when it comes to being ridiculous.

Nothing ridiculous about it.

People expect a top 3-4 team in the league this season from start to finish, so when they've been a wild card team for most of the year while McDavid is having the best season of his career (Hyman and RNH too, Leon being no.2 in league scoring also) ... it's going to ruffle feathers.

If you don't want that kind of pressure or don't like it, you don't need to have a generational player on your team. Expectations and the heat in that situation are always going to be magnified.

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

Nothing ridiculous about it.

People expect a top 3-4 team in the league this season from start to finish, so when they've been a wild card team for most of the year while McDavid is having the best season of his career (Hyman and RNH too, Leon being no.2 in league scoring also) ... it's going to ruffle feathers.

If you don't want that kind of pressure or don't like it, you don't need to have a generational player on your team. Expectations and the heat in that situation are always going to be magnified.

Cool story.

 

[Soundwave]

Cool story.

Like lol why wouldn't that be the expectation after last season?

You were expecting a wild card team for most of the year?

The problem there is too that McDavid is having the best season the league has seen in a quarter century, the best season since some guy named Mario Lemieux. Yeah, people expect a lot, the fact that this is news to some people is hilarious.

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

Like lol why wouldn't that be the expectation after last season?

You were expecting a wild card team for most of the year?

Because I live in reality not fantasy land.

 

[Soundwave]

Because I live in reality not fantasy land.

McDavid is having the best season in NHL history in a quarter century. You're OK with being in 7th place?

Maybe that's you, but you're definitely in a minority if you think that's OK. They should be no.1 in this division by a mile.

 

[LTIR]

McDavid is having the best season in NHL history in a quarter century. You're OK with being in 7th place?

Maybe that's you, but you're definitely in a minority if you think that's OK. They should be no.1 in this division by a mile.

Well f*** Holland then for not stopping Kings and Vegas from winning.

 

[Soundwave]

Well f*** Holland then for not stopping Kings and Vegas from winning.

They're not doing anything special, we shouldn't be sitting here waiting around for other teams to lose on the OOT scoreboard. That's a loser mentality.

You take care of your own business, plain and simple.

This team has been painfully slow in getting McDavid real help on the defensive side and it's bottlenecked the team for ages. Finally this year in like McDavid's 8th season they decide to give up a 1st round pick to get some actual help, it shouldn't have taken this long, that should have been done 2-3 years ago.

 

[LTIR]

They're not doing anything special, we shouldn't be sitting here waiting around for other teams to lose on the OOT scoreboard. That's a loser mentality.

You take care of your own business, plain and simple.

This team has been painfully slow in getting McDavid real help on the defensive side and it's bottlenecked the team for age. Finally this year in like McDavid's 8th season they decide to give up a 1st round pick to get some actual help, it shouldn't have taken this long, that should have been done 2-3 years ago.

Oilers have been doing that since Jan01,2023. They have been special despite Campbell.

We can talk hindsight and bash Holland for signing Kane and Campbell and not using the 10M on other pieces but this team he has assembled is the best we have had since 1992.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

My opinion of Holland has improved after the TDL.... But that said, defense and goaltending are still a sore spot for this team. Had we one or the other there's no doubt in my mind we're comfortably atop the division. Campbell has been poor, to put it lightly.

The expectations have been raised. A first round exit and he should go. A second round exit and he should be evaluated. If the Oilers make it further than that then obviously he's safe.

The West is there for the taking. With McDavid putting up absurd numbers even finishing in a WC spot is not good enough. I will not call for his head at this time, but if the team fails to win a playoff round then it should be his last day as Oilers GM.

 

[Soundwave]

Oilers have been doing that since Jan01,2023.

We can talk hindsight and bash Holland for signing Kane and Campbell and not using the 10M on other pieces but this team he has assembled is the best we have had since 1992.

Not exactly a high bar since the teams through 2005 were crippled by low spending ownership, then they had 2006, then they had Pronger-gate which impacted the team for a few years before they decided to just full on rebuild which lasted a decade because they're stupid.

The fact is McDavid in his career here has had an average D corps basically just twice in his career ... 16-17 season and only now here at the trade deadline and it's not even like these are blue lines worth doing backflips over, they're the *bare minimum* a Cup contending team should have maybe even still a bit less because we're running 2-3 young/rookie players back there constantly which shouldn't be the case.

This organization should have made a big move for a good D man 2-3 years ago, they didn't want to because they too hung up on collecting draft picks instead of getting help, thank goodness this year they finally made a tangible move.

And still we have giant question marks in net because the GM bet the farm on Jack Campbell, which is something he has to answer for. Now we're running a rookie in net and that's far from ideal.

 

[LTIR]

My opinion of Holland has improved after the TDL.... But that said, defense and goaltending are still a sore spot for this team. Had we one or the other there's no doubt in my mind we're comfortably atop the division. Campbell has been poor, to put it lightly.

The expectations have been raised. A first round exit and he should go. A second round exit and he should be evaluated. If the Oilers make it further than that then obviously he's safe.

The West is there for the taking. With McDavid putting up absurd numbers even finishing in a WC spot is not good enough. I will not call for his head at this time, but if the team fails to win a playoff round then it should be his last day as Oilers GM.

No way Holland is getting fired with a first round exit. Woodcroft would go first..What would be the expectation for the new GM? The core is locked up.

 

[North Cole]

They're not doing anything special, we shouldn't be sitting here waiting around for other teams to lose on the OOT scoreboard. That's a loser mentality.

You take care of your own business, plain and simple.

This team has been painfully slow in getting McDavid real help on the defensive side and it's bottlenecked the team for ages. Finally this year in like McDavid's 8th season they decide to give up a 1st round pick to get some actual help, it shouldn't have taken this long, that should have been done 2-3 years ago.

We just had an inconsistent first part of the year, cap issues and some injury trouble. Team has been taking care of it's own business for a while and all of the stats and on-ice play has been trending up since the new year.

LA has been riding some crazy goaltending and special teams play, just their streak of riding that wave last a lot longer than Seattle who already came back to earth. The current iteration of the NHL doesn't allow you to just take care of your own business anymore, unless you managed to be like Boston and do that for all 82 games. We had a stretch of games like...12-0-2 and made up exactly 2 spots/6 points in the standings.

I think the issue is more that we are in an echo chamber of HF and media narratives about how the Pacific is a trash division, which lends itself to the idea they aren't doing anything impressive . LA and VGK have put together a lot of wins/OT losses in their last 13 respectively. We have done pretty well through our last difficult stretch of the year, it's just hard to pass teams. Said the same thing to VAN fans last year, they were like 7 points back at the 30 game mark and thought they had a shot, but they had to pass 6 teams to get a WC spot. That's insurmountable.

At the end of the day, I agree that we should have done more sooner, but at the same time - I'm much happier Holland was more patient then doing a Chiarelli and going all-in when the team is extremely mid. That f***ed our whole complexion up and we couldn't get out of it for a while. You only get one-shot to go all-in.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

No way Holland is getting fired with a first round exit. Woodcroft would go first..What would be the expectation for the new GM? The core is locked up.

Why on Earth would they fire the coach before the GM? If Holland picked two dud coaches in a row (I don't believe Woodcroft is a dud for the record) why would the next guy he hire be all that much better?

The expectation for the next NHL GM would be the exact same as it was when Holland was hired: Goaltending, defense, depth forwards. Thankfully we don't seem to need the last one anymore but defense/goaltending are paramount.

 

[Soundwave]

We just had an inconsistent first part of the year, cap issues and some injury trouble. Team has been taking care of it's own business for a while and all of the stats and on-ice play has been trending up since the new year.

LA has been riding some crazy goaltending and special teams play, just their streak of riding that wave last a lot longer than Seattle who already came back to earth. The current iteration of the NHL doesn't allow you to just take care of your own business anymore, unless you managed to be like Boston and do that for all 82 games. We had a stretch of games like...12-0-2 and made up exactly 2 spots/6 points in the standings.

I think the issue is more that we are in an echo chamber of HF and media narratives about how the Pacific is a trash division, which lends itself to the idea they aren't doing anything impressive . LA and VGK have put together a lot of wins/OT losses in their last 13 respectively. We have done pretty well through our last difficult stretch of the year, it's just hard to pass teams. Said the same thing to VAN fans last year, they were like 7 points back at the 30 game mark and thought they had a shot, but they had to pass 6 teams to get a WC spot. That's insurmountable.

Even as is the blue line still has large weaknesses.

On the right side D, our no.1 RD is either Ceci or Bouchard and realistically neither has any business playing that role on what's supposed to be a Cup contender.

Holland needs to get that fixed too and taking another 2-3 years to do it isn't going to cut it.

Ceci in general shouldn't be in the top 4 of a top end D group. A player like Ekholm should have been acquired 2-3 years ago to fix that problem with 1st round picks given up if need be.

We should be at this point also getting rid of the Cecis of the world, but this management group has been very slow and very late in getting real help for the D.

It's telling the coach at some point had to resort to getting a guy he knew from the AHL to beef up the defensive ability of the back end and that's an embarrassing byproduct of when you have GM after GM here not being able to bring in good enough defenders.

 

[LTIR]

Why on Earth would they fire the coach before the GM? If Holland picked two dud coaches in a row (I don't believe Woodcroft is a dud for the record) why would the next guy he hire be all that much better?

The expectation for the next NHL GM would be the exact same as it was when Holland was hired: Goaltending, defense, depth forwards. Thankfully we don't seem to need the last one anymore but defense/goaltending are paramount.

Same goes for GM, what makes you think next GM would be better? Ownership will have to continue to pay Holland his money and another GM on top. From all reports Holland was in on many quality Dmen at deadline.
Defense will get better as Bouchard, Broberg and maybe even Desharnais progress.

What we really need is Bob Essensa as our goalie coach. Throw 5M at him instead of a GM.

 

[Soundwave]

People expect when you have an MVP player on your team that your team is among the top teams in the league. That's just how it goes. Look at other sports.

NBA, this year Nikola Jokic is being favored to win the MVP, what spot is his team in? 1st place in Western Conference.

NFL, Patrick Mahomes is the MVP, his team finished 1st in their division and won the Super Bowl.

MLB, Judge is the MVP, his Yankees finished 1st in their division.

McDavid is not just the MVP of hockey, he's having a generational season, we're talking like the best season the sport has seen in 25 years. Yet the Oilers are sitting 3rd/4th in their division.

Like which of these pictures doesn't quite line up?

Holland should be getting some heat, he has the greatest talent the sport has seen in a long, long time, and even has other players like RNH and Hyman having career years AND has the no.2 top scorer in the league on top of all that. It shouldn't be that hard to have a top team.

He made an enormous mistake on Campbell, overpaid Nurse, and has been taking too long to bring in a good defender (it's not like the Oilers didn't have 1st round picks in 2019, 2020, 2021, etc.). The bets on Puljujarvi and Yamamoto were extremely poor too. Criticism is fair, making a bad move for every good move you make isn't good enough.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Same goes for GM, what makes you think next GM would be better? Ownership will have to continue to pay Holland his money and another GM on top. From all reports Holland was in on many quality Dmen at deadline.
Defense will get better as Bouchard, Broberg and maybe even Desharnais progress.

What we really need is Bob Essensa as our goalie coach. Throw 5M at him instead of a GM.

I mean if it were up to me there would be a complete torching of the front office if things go sideways... But at the same time, the GM hires the coach and the GM has been here for 4 years now.

We definitely said that our D will develop naturally from within after last season and this season has produced mixed results in that area. It can happen but I still think we need at least one more NHL calibre defenseman.

You're not going to get any argument from me about the goalie coach. I've called for Schwartz's head for years but he still manages to survive somehow.

 

[North Cole]

Even as is the blue line still has large weaknesses.

On the right side D, our no.1 RD is either Ceci or Bouchard and realistically neither has any business playing that role on what's supposed to be a Cup contender.

Holland needs to get that fixed too and taking another 2-3 years to do it isn't going to cut it.

Ceci in general shouldn't be in the top 4 of a top end D group. A player like Ekholm should have been acquired 2-3 years ago to fix that problem with 1st round picks given up if need be.

We should be at this point also getting rid of the Cecis of the world, but this management group has been very slow and very late in getting real help for the D.

It's telling the coach at some point had to resort to getting a guy he knew from the AHL to beef up the defensive ability of the back end and that's an embarrassing byproduct of when you have GM after GM here not being able to bring in good enough defenders.

The only weakness is Ceci as we got rid of Barrie in the trade, but you don't really go out and trade for a 1RD, it's just not available and I'm not sure we get a better player than Ceci to slot in as 1RD for the amount of money he makes. The idea has always been Bouch/Bro to play there, that's why they were drafted high. Ekholm coming in 2-3 years ago doesn't fix our 1RD.

I think it's less embarassing on the GM not being able to bring in enough good defenders and more embarassing that the guy we brought up was a 7RD pick because the Org can't develop or graduate f*** all from the AHL on the back end. Kesselring, Samo, and others are all junk. If the expectation is to just do trades to rework the entire right side of the D, then we have bigger issues than our GM sitting on his hands not making trades. That's an organizational failure.

 

[Soundwave]

The only weakness is Ceci as we got rid of Barrie in the trade, but you don't really go out and trade for a 1RD, it's just not available and I'm not sure we get a better player than Ceci to slot in as 1RD for the amount of money he makes. The idea has always been Bouch/Bro to play there, that's why they were drafted high. Ekholm coming in 2-3 years ago doesn't fix our 1RD.

I think it's less embarassing on the GM not being able to bring in enough good defenders and more embarassing that the guy we brought up was a 7RD pick because the Org can't develop or graduate f*** all from the AHL on the back end. Kesselring, Samo, and others are all junk. If the expectation is to just do trades to rework the entire right side of the D, then we have bigger issues than our GM sitting on his hands not making trades. That's an organizational failure.

On a traditional Cup contender, a Bouchard or Ceci should honestly be the bottom pairing defender on the right side. It's only in Edmonton that the bar is set so low for D that we think that is supposed to be normal, it's not normal.

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

JFC.

I stand by my ridiculous comment as well as my comment that I, & I'll include most oiler fans, live in reality while a vocal few, who obviously have PTSD from the decade of darkness & the Chiarelli regime, live in some fantasy land.

 

[Soundwave]

JFC.

I stand by my ridiculous comment as well as my comment that I, & I'll include most oiler fans, live in reality while a vocal few, who obviously have PTSD from the decade of darkness & the Chiarelli regime, live in some fantasy land.

You have low expectations, plain and simple.