Speculation: Fire Glen Sather

[NickyFotiu]

Right, which is why ultimately, everyone gets judged on the results. You may look at the most recent 3 year stretch and be happy with the results, but I feel that it's necessary to look at the entire body of work. IMO, and in the opinion of many others, Sather should have been fired long ago. Our recent success doesn't change that, and it doesn't make me confident in Sather's ability to run this team going forward.

We fired Torts because he wasn't the best option to coach this team going forward. Can you honestly say that Sather is the best option as GM for the foreseeable future?

Torts was fired because he wore out his welcome with the players. Its easier to fire 1 coach than 20 players. He was going to be brought back before the player exit interviews.

Sather had a great season this season so I would not see any reason to replace him based on his recent history.

 

[GAGLine]

Torts was fired because he wore out his welcome with the players. Its easier to fire 1 coach than 20 players. He was going to be brought back before the player exit interviews.

True, but Sather did say that he wanted a team that plays a more puck-possession style. The exit interviews might have been the final straw, but there was some obvious discord before that, particularly in the handling of Kreider and Richards.

Sather had a great season this season so I would not see any reason to replace him based on his recent history.

That isn't what I asked. Do you feel Sather is the best option for GM of the Rangers going forward?

 

[bagh]

I was against signing Drury but most the hockey talking heads picked us us for the cup after those signings. How much money and years did Nylander want? Were any Ranger fans in favor of giving him the contract he sought? How did it work out for the Caps? Sometimes we need to look at things in full context. Marty Straka retired (from the NHL) as a Ranger. If Slats did not think long term a lot of our younger players would have been traded. You can not always think long term or short term. There has to be some balance. I believe our current team with Lundy, Kreider, Stepan, Zooks, McD, Nash, and St. Louis show a balance.

See this where we differ. You speak of context, then lets look at the larger context then.

1. We didnt have a 1st rounder last year and won't have one until 2016 (assuming he doesn't trade it away in some fashion).

2. We have a cap number next year of 63 million but that only accounts for out top 2 lines and top 2 pairings with Kreider being an RFA.

3. Our top scorers are on the downside of their careers but some of their contract still has at least 3 years to go.

4. Sather has a bad track record when it comes to negotiating with players and overpays them. Next year most of our core young player will be free agents.

Given point 1, we wont have the talent ready to step in when we buyout some of the old guys for point 3. If we buyout the old guys given point 4, we may not be able to retain who we need to.

Given point 2, next year we have to have an entirely new 3 and 4th lines and bottom pairing guys. traditionally, this is where you plug in some young guys and cheap vets, but we only have maybe Miller ready to step in. Also, the cap number next year is going to be what like 71 million. I can almost guarantee you that Kreider will be looking for around 3-4 million a year if sather doesnt find someway to overpay him. So that leave roughly 4 million for 2 lines and 2 bottom pairing defencement. This wouldn't be a bad situation if Sather hadn't traded our depth for Rick Nash.

So your position that Sather has some balance in terms of long term and short term thinking in my mind seems to ignore the totality of all his moves and their ramifications.

I have been a Knicks fan and I have been a Rangers fan. Both Dolan owned teams often employ team execs who are more flash than substance. the only difference was when the Knicks had Donny Walsh. He rebuilt that team only to have Dolan tear it down. He goes back to Indiana and gives them input and they are playing the Heat for a chance at the finals with a great young core. Given that, I have a healthy respect for building for the ground up, vision, and talent evaluators. Glen Sather in my mind is the opposite of all 3. I don't want what happend to the Knicks this year to happen to the Rangers.

 

[Vitto79]

If this old bugger wins the cup it's going to be classic . Then go to pres and hire gottron ASAP

 

[Fletch]

all great points, bagh, and it makes a great case for anti-Sather remarks. But many are pro Sather since this team has made it to the conference finals a couple times in the last few years, and what's wrong with that, and thus will deal with the future when it happens. I think every owner would be doing the same at this point. Sather has a couple mulligan years under his belt from this run alone, and while we all should have reason to believe this team may have difficulties in the future, his boss should not be making that opinion and rather should be a results-oriented boss. Further, the goal is a Stanley Cup. What would you give up in the future for a Stanley Cup win, or a Stanley Cup trip? The present value of future happiness always can be measured. Personally, i'm just going with the flow at the moment. It's nice to be able to just root for the team today and not worry about tomorrow because I don't have the time to put in to analyze the entire league, farm systems, draft picks, etc. Guess I've become a bandwagoner.

 

[NickyFotiu]

True, but Sather did say that he wanted a team that plays a more puck-possession style. The exit interviews might have been the final straw, but there was some obvious discord before that, particularly in the handling of Kreider and Richards.



That isn't what I asked. Do you feel Sather is the best option for GM of the Rangers going forward?

The plan was to keep him. In fact I think his contract may have been previously extended. I agree that Slats wanted a more modern style of hockey but ultimately the reason Torts got fired was the players couldn't stand him anymore.

Why would I suspect that Slats would be a poor GM going forward when we are going to be one of the last 2 teams playing and he just had a great season? The Habs coach just said we are the best team they have played in the playoffs.

 

[NickyFotiu]

See this where we differ. You speak of context, then lets look at the larger context then.

1. We didnt have a 1st rounder last year and won't have one until 2016 (assuming he doesn't trade it away in some fashion).

2. We have a cap number next year of 63 million but that only accounts for out top 2 lines and top 2 pairings with Kreider being an RFA.

3. Our top scorers are on the downside of their careers but some of their contract still has at least 3 years to go.

4. Sather has a bad track record when it comes to negotiating with players and overpays them. Next year most of our core young player will be free agents.

Given point 1, we wont have the talent ready to step in when we buyout some of the old guys for point 3. If we buyout the old guys given point 4, we may not be able to retain who we need to.

Given point 2, next year we have to have an entirely new 3 and 4th lines and bottom pairing guys. traditionally, this is where you plug in some young guys and cheap vets, but we only have maybe Miller ready to step in. Also, the cap number next year is going to be what like 71 million. I can almost guarantee you that Kreider will be looking for around 3-4 million a year if sather doesnt find someway to overpay him. So that leave roughly 4 million for 2 lines and 2 bottom pairing defencement. This wouldn't be a bad situation if Sather hadn't traded our depth for Rick Nash.

So your position that Sather has some balance in terms of long term and short term thinking in my mind seems to ignore the totality of all his moves and their ramifications.

I have been a Knicks fan and I have been a Rangers fan. Both Dolan owned teams often employ team execs who are more flash than substance. the only difference was when the Knicks had Donny Walsh. He rebuilt that team only to have Dolan tear it down. He goes back to Indiana and gives them input and they are playing the Heat for a chance at the finals with a great young core. Given that, I have a healthy respect for building for the ground up, vision, and talent evaluators. Glen Sather in my mind is the opposite of all 3. I don't want what happend to the Knicks this year to happen to the Rangers.

We are going to the Stanley Cup finals. There are 28 teams that may have more first round picks in the next year or 2 that are sitting home.

Our top 2 scorers were Zooks and Stepan. How are they on the downside of their careers?

Our young players (McD, Kreider, Zooks, Stepan, Staal, etc) are most likely not going anywhere.

Richards contract will likely be amnestied. If he is then our cap number will be fine.

 

[GAGLine]

Why would I suspect that Slats would be a poor GM going forward when we are going to be one of the last 2 teams playing and he just had a great season? The Habs coach just said we are the best team they have played in the playoffs.

You're still evading the question. Is he the best option? Do you think keeping him as GM would be better than promoting Gorton to GM?

The reason you might think he's not the best option (rather than just a poor option), is that it's taken him 14 years to get to this point, a much larger amount of time than is afforded to most GMs. Furthermore, Sather's recent success coincides with the appointment of Gorton as the AGM. Given Sather's entire body of work, do you feel confident that he is the best option for this team going forward?

 

[ltrangerfan]

Count me in as someone who would fire Sather.

He gave up a first round draft pick to Tampa and the captain.

What did the Rangers get back in return??

An old player who needs a shave.

 

[bagh]

We are going to the Stanley Cup finals. There are 28 teams that may have more first round picks in the next year or 2 that are sitting home.

Yeah but the point you raised was that Sather has some inkling of a long term vision, and I argued that he doesn't have a long term vision. We haven't gone to the Cup final yet, though it does seem likely we will. That doesn't guaratee us the cup. Assuming we get there and don't win, will you trade a trip to the Cup final for years of mediocrity?

Our top 2 scorers were Zooks and Stepan. How are they on the downside of their careers?

Actually let me clarify that our top 2 goal scorers are what I meant and that is Nash whom we acquired to be a sniper and Richards. Nash is pretty much one or two concussions from turning into Lindros.

Our young players (McD, Kreider, Zooks, Stepan, Staal, etc) are most likely not going anywhere.

Can you say that definitively? They are going to want to get paid and like I said Sather has a track record of overpaying guys. You also don't know if he is going to fall into his old habits of going after a big free agent or trade target. We may not be able to afford them all given his track record. If he hands out say 2 $6 million dollar contracts to Stepan and Staal and a slightly higher one to McD, given what we have committed, we will likely lose one or two guys.

Richards contract will likely be amnestied. If he is then our cap number will be fine.

How? If you are amnestied than half of your salary is counted against the cap for double the amount of years. Richards is making what like 6.7 and has 4 years left. Assuming we cut him say this offseason. That is 3.3 million against the cap for 8 years. If we cut him next year same thing for 6 years. I don't care how you look at it, that's just bad cap management and bad long term thinking.

 

[bagh]

all great points, bagh, and it makes a great case for anti-Sather remarks. But many are pro Sather since this team has made it to the conference finals a couple times in the last few years, and what's wrong with that, and thus will deal with the future when it happens. I think every owner would be doing the same at this point. Sather has a couple mulligan years under his belt from this run alone, and while we all should have reason to believe this team may have difficulties in the future, his boss should not be making that opinion and rather should be a results-oriented boss. Further, the goal is a Stanley Cup. What would you give up in the future for a Stanley Cup win, or a Stanley Cup trip? The present value of future happiness always can be measured. Personally, i'm just going with the flow at the moment. It's nice to be able to just root for the team today and not worry about tomorrow because I don't have the time to put in to analyze the entire league, farm systems, draft picks, etc. Guess I've become a bandwagoner.

I am not trying to take away from the euphoria of a cup run. I am just trying to be realistic.

As I said earlier, and at the risk of going on ad nauseum, I attribute our success more to Maloney than Sather. He just took picks maloney made and either traded them for "superstars" or made them the core.

I am just playing devil's advocate. To make an analogy, You don't want to chase a temporary high like a drug addict at the risk of long term consequences.

I do think NickyFotiu is correct in saying that the Hawks are a model franchise. Just like the Penguins and in my mind Boston. All 3 teams have built a good young corps and continue to supplement them with good young players either through the draft or trades of vets for younger players. I think there are numerous examples from the Staal trade and getting Maata, drafting Brandon Saad, getting Seguin and Hamilton for a crucial piece in Kessel. They have long term vision and if they do go into the free agent pool they do saw with great thought and not hand out crazy contracts that may hamstring them in the future.

Do I view the team as continual stanley cup contenders? Thats a big maybe. Even that has a shrinking window. If we don't win anything in the next 3 years we will be in trouble because the guy carrying (Henrik) us will be in decline.

I don't expect anyone to agree with my analysis or least of all even like it. I just think it needs to be pointed out.

 

[419forever]

How? If you are amnestied than half of your salary is counted against the cap for double the amount of years. Richards is making what like 6.7 and has 4 years left. Assuming we cut him say this offseason. That is 3.3 million against the cap for 8 years. If we cut him next year same thing for 6 years. I don't care how you look at it, that's just bad cap management and bad long term thinking.

Wrong, Rangers have one more compliance buyout remaining to use this offseason the latest...aka no cap hit

 

[NickyFotiu]

Can you say that definitively? They are going to want to get paid and like I said Sather has a track record of overpaying guys. You also don't know if he is going to fall into his old habits of going after a big free agent or trade target. We may not be able to afford them all given his track record. If he hands out say 2 $6 million dollar contracts to Stepan and Staal and a slightly higher one to McD, given what we have committed, we will likely lose one or two guys.



How? If you are amnestied than half of your salary is counted against the cap for double the amount of years. Richards is making what like 6.7 and has 4 years left. Assuming we cut him say this offseason. That is 3.3 million against the cap for 8 years. If we cut him next year same thing for 6 years. I don't care how you look at it, that's just bad cap management and bad long term thinking.

No offense intended but either you or I have no idea what we are talking about regarding the points I put in bold. It could be me but I hope it is not.

 

[NickyFotiu]

You're still evading the question. Is he the best option? Do you think keeping him as GM would be better than promoting Gorton to GM?

The reason you might think he's not the best option (rather than just a poor option), is that it's taken him 14 years to get to this point, a much larger amount of time than is afforded to most GMs. Furthermore, Sather's recent success coincides with the appointment of Gorton as the AGM. Given Sather's entire body of work, do you feel confident that he is the best option for this team going forward?

I'm not evading. I can not say for sure what Slats or any other GM will do based on the future. I wish I could predict their futures. I have been happy with the teams that Slats has put out the last 3 seasons (short term) and the last 9 seasons (long term).

 

[bagh]

Wrong, Rangers have one more compliance buyout remaining to use this offseason the latest...aka no cap hit

You are right. For some reason I keep thinking Drury counts as the second buyout.

 

[bagh]

No offense intended but either you or I have no idea what we are talking about regarding the points I put in bold. It could be me but I hope it is not.

No, I was mistaken about the Richards piece, but at the risk of sounding obstinate, that still leaves Nash. As I said, top scorers awon't be worth their contract and buy outs are expensive. He can't rely upon the NHL to always bail him out with these loopholes. Again, bad long term thinking.

As for the McDonagh piece, dude handed out 5.5 million to Dan Girardi, is it really that much of a stretch to say he will not hand out a higher contract to a guy who basically is young and showing himself to be our bes defensemen?

As for the very first part of your statement, you can implicitely or explicitely insult me all you want. Don't really care either way. It's not like I am saying anything that reflects my actual person.

 

[NickyFotiu]

No, I was mistaken about the Richards piece, but at the risk of sounding obstinate, that still leaves Nash. As I said, top scorers awon't be worth their contract and buy outs are expensive. He can't rely upon the NHL to always bail him out with these loopholes. Again, bad long term thinking.

As for the McDonagh piece, dude handed out 5.5 million to Dan Girardi, is it really that much of a stretch to say he will not hand out a higher contract to a guy who basically is young and showing himself to be our bes defensemen?

As for the very first part of your statement, you can implicitely or explicitely insult me all you want. Don't really care either way. It's not like I am saying anything that reflects my actual person.

I was definitely not trying to insult you at all. Please accept my apology if I came across in that manner. I was totally serious. We saw things in such a dramatically different way in regards to those 2 points I knew one of us had to be dramatically in error and I got scared it was me. I know I make mistakes.

The Nash deal may turn out to be a poor deal but we could trade him for some good prospects or a high draft choice easily. In a league with few goal scorers he is almost a lock to score 30-40 goals every season. You mentioned his concussions. There is no way we could have predicted that before the trade.

In regards to McD. Why would Slats give him a contract at over 6 mill a season when Slats (who was thinking ahead) just signed him to a long term deal at 4.7 mill annually?

 

[GAGLine]

I'm not evading. I can not say for sure what Slats or any other GM will do based on the future. I wish I could predict their futures. I have been happy with the teams that Slats has put out the last 3 seasons (short term) and the last 9 seasons (long term).

Fair enough, but then how you can argue against those of us who would like to see Sather leave?

For me, it isn't a matter of being happy with the last 3 years. It's a matter of not trusting Sather. He's spent a lot of time earning that mistrust and I feel his recent success is due more to Gorton's influence than anything else.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Count me in as someone who would fire Sather.

He gave up a first round draft pick to Tampa and the captain.

What did the Rangers get back in return??

An old player who needs a shave.

An extremely late first round draft pick. And that "old player who needs a shave" is tied for the team lead in goals and points in the playoffs.

The way this team is playing, I don't get how anyone can be upset with Sather. He's built at the very worst the second best team in the East, and at the very best it still has a shot to prove to be the best in the NHL, something only three other teams can say today.

 

[bagh]

I was definitely not trying to insult you at all. Please accept my apology if I came across in that manner. I was totally serious. We saw things in such a dramatically different way in regards to those 2 points I knew one of us had to be dramatically in error and I got scared it was me. I know I make mistakes.

The Nash deal may turn out to be a poor deal but we could trade him for some good prospects or a high draft choice easily. In a league with few goal scorers he is almost a lock to score 30-40 goals every season. You mentioned his concussions. There is no way we could have predicted that before the trade.

In regards to McD. Why would Slats give him a contract at over 6 mill a season when Slats (who was thinking ahead) just signed him to a long term deal at 4.7 mill annually?

With regards to Nash, just out curiosity, what makes you think we can get that big of a return?

We got lucky with Gomez because their GM was fighting for his job. In terms of Gaborik, he was coming of an almost 80 point season. Granted, Gaborik had injury issues, but I think teams will be more wary of Nash's concussions and a contender will think twice about his playoff play history.

In terms of McD, I think he will sign another extension in a year or two to tell you the truth. Under the CBA, a player cant renegotiate like the NFL. It's just a sinking feeling I get that Sather may try to pull a Wang. Obviously you cant to crazy long contracts any more, but I think if McD puts in one more years worth of work he can ask for the extension. It hasn't been done yet, but I have read reports of some agents considering doing so for their clients.

 

[McRanger]

Firing Sather after winning the cup? Definitely the only way to properly bring a finish to this long and absurd tale.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

An extremely late first round draft pick. And that "old player who needs a shave" is tied for the team lead in goals and points in the playoffs.

The way this team is playing, I don't get how anyone can be upset with Sather. He's built at the very worst the second best team in the East, and at the very best it still has a shot to prove to be the best in the NHL, something only three other teams can say today.

I think that post was pretty obviously sarcastic lirl

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I think that post was pretty obviously sarcastic lirl

Nah.

 

[bagh]

Fair enough, but then how you can argue against those of us who would like to see Sather leave?

For me, it isn't a matter of being happy with the last 3 years. It's a matter of not trusting Sather. He's spent a lot of time earning that mistrust and I feel his recent success is due more to Gorton's influence than anything else.

This is my thought as well. The man's track record and the totality of his actions are what I judge him by.

I was absolutely giddy when I was 14 or 15 when I heard he was coming to the Rangers from Edmonton. I thought if this guy could have Edmonton's success with basically no budget, think what he could do in New York.

All I have seen him do is smoke his cigar and try and make free agent all star teams in his first few years. When he brought in Fleury and Lindros I was freaking out, but after a while it wore off.

It seems every year he adds a big name free agent and mostly we always get bounced out in the first or second rounds. Hell, in one situation we got Gaborik in the offseason and didnt even make the playoffs.

People are excited about going to the Finals because Price is out and that's great, but would anyone give Sather the benefit of the doubt if Price pulled a superman and knocked us out? What would happen if he remakes the team after a playoff letdown like 2007 with Drury and Gomez or even 2009 with Gaborik and doesn't duplicate the success of the season past?

Like I said, I am just playing devil's advocate amidst the euphroia going around and trying to remain realistic.

 

[Baumer582]

Count me in as someone who would fire Sather.

He gave up a first round draft pick to Tampa and the captain.

What did the Rangers get back in return??

An old player who needs a shave.

Please, please, please be sarcasm. If it is, I laughed. If it isn't, you sir, are everything that is wrong with the majority of Ranger fans. You want 25 Sean Avery's, you yell "shoot" every 10 seconds, and you buy those embarrassingly fake Chinese knockoff jerseys and tell me it's an "Authentic" jersey.


Ryan Callahan was a lovable grinder, the type of player who helps get a team a ring when their superstars are scoring the majority of the time. He would have fit in quite well with the '94 team for sure.

But in this modern game, you need more goal scorers and quick, puck possession players than you do shot blockers. The 2012 team is proof of that. That was an EXCELLENT trade. You gave up a 3rd liner and 2 future picks for last year's ART ROSS WINNER.

And like it or not, Glen Sather cleaned up Neil Smith's mess and built a team. Not the greatest team in the world, but considering that they weren't handed lottery picks like Pitt or Chicago, I think he's done a fine job getting them to be competitive and developing young talent.

Did he whiff on Hugh Jessiman, Al Montoya, Bobby Sanguenetti, and the Drury/Gomez/Redden signings? Yes, he did. Was McILrath a bad pick? Probably.

But the McDonagh trade, Kreider and Miller picks, Dubinsky/Callahan picks, the forgotten Jagr trade, and the Nash trade (yes, the trade of grinders for a talented player) were all great moves. The bottom line is, has he developed some young players and built a playoff team? Yes, he has. Stop complaining. And anyone who thinks this team is comparable to the Knicks needs to have their head examined.

You might all be too young to remember the late 90's, but I sure as hell remember them. Once Gretzky left, this team was an embarrassment. No future, no farm system, and relying on players who were 10 years past their prime. The rebuild started in '04, and since then this team has missed the playoffs once, and barely at that.

And right now, this is legitimately a Cup contending team with the right mix of stars, young players, and grinding veterans. He also hired the right coach.


Be happy with what you have and cheer your team on. Glen Sather has done a fine job. Not a perfect job, but a fine job nonetheless.