Speculation: Fire Glen Sather
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Slats is the master of trading, and even though he's offered some atrocious contracts to UFAs, he spots talent as well as any GM in the league (McD, Mats, Danny-G and Lundqvist come to mind). Our team -- the one going to the SCF -- is his creation. And we still have good prospects in the pipeline. Cannot complain.
ReggieDunlop68
hey hanrahan!
I'm not a huge fan of Sather, but results are results.
If the Rangers win the cup, he will go down as one of the most successful Rangers general managers.
In terms of playoff appearance and success, the Rangers haven't played this well since the Emile Francis era that included no cups.
In terms of Smith, he did get the cup. No one could ever take that accolade from him, but if the Rangers win the cup this year, how could anyone say Smith was better than Sather in terms of the overall playoff appearance and success.
Yes, Sather inherited the most barren Ranger team that ever existed, and the corporate culture at the Garden prior to the salary cap was despicable.
If the Rangers win the cup, he will go down as one of the most successful Rangers general managers.
In terms of playoff appearance and success, the Rangers haven't played this well since the Emile Francis era that included no cups.
In terms of Smith, he did get the cup. No one could ever take that accolade from him, but if the Rangers win the cup this year, how could anyone say Smith was better than Sather in terms of the overall playoff appearance and success.
Yes, Sather inherited the most barren Ranger team that ever existed, and the corporate culture at the Garden prior to the salary cap was despicable.
Let's talk about key moves this year.
1. Klein for Del Zotto. --> Allowed McDonagh to grow offensively, and provided a solid defender
2. Diaz for 5th round pick --> Huge depth get
3. St. Louis for Callahan and two 1st rounders --> Fell into his lap, but obviously he made the trade happen
Those are all big moves.
1. Klein for Del Zotto. --> Allowed McDonagh to grow offensively, and provided a solid defender
2. Diaz for 5th round pick --> Huge depth get
3. St. Louis for Callahan and two 1st rounders --> Fell into his lap, but obviously he made the trade happen
Those are all big moves.
I am sorry. I hate to seem like I am picking on you but that is revisionist history. The team he inherited had talent. I pointed out earlier that he came in with 2 top 10 picks and that team had guys like Leetch in his prime. Leetch was hurt in 99 but I think he had something like 80 points the next season. We had a line with good chemistry in the Czechmates(remember them) and it looked like some decent pieces in Mike Richter and Fluery. He had pieces to work with.
In terms of Corporate culture, this is my biggest issue with MSG. There is no accountability or long term planning. It's just throw money at the problem to fix it. It being despicable isnt a thing of the past. It's an ongoing fixture. If it wasn't, then why do a lot of Rangers fans fall back to the protection of a compliance buy out whenever talks of a player regressing come up?
You are right in saying we had a long streak of success with him but we have also had the longest streak of failure with him as well. We basically made the playoffs for 8 years and missed it for 8 while being near the top in money spent almost every year.
I said it before and I will say it again. I don't trust Sather with this team's future because I think he isnt a good contract negotiator and long term planner. I think he has been managing the team like a fantasy hockey owner and picking whichever guy strikes his fancy like a kid in a toy store.
If we win the cup and people want to praise him, go right ahead, but I think he is someone who just got incredibly lucky with his moves this year. The number of successfule moves he has made is vastly outnumbered by his bad ones.
I am happy we are in the cup finals, but if we don't win, I am scared that our team might end up like the oilers post cup final who have been basically run by Sather disciples.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,193
- 9,199
It is interesting that you say others are guilty of revisionist history. If you mean Brendl and Lundmark they were top 10 picks that Slats inherited from Smith. They were not good players so how does that help him? Richter was already around 34 years old, injured and in decline. Theo who was one of my favorite players was 32 at that time and battling substance issues.
Slats is the only GM ever that can make the playoffs for 8 seasons and miss the playoffs for 8 seasons all while only being here for 13 seasons. Revisionist history? For the record Slats inherited a team from Smith that had already missed the playoffs 3 seasons. It was a aging team that had almost nothing of value on the farm. Slats missed the playoffs for 4 seasons while rebuilding our farm. Then we made the playoffs 8 times in 9 seasons.
Every GM has some good moves and some bad moves. The ones whose good moves outweigh the bad are the ones that make the playoffs 8 seasons out of 9, the ECF 2 seasons out of 3, and the Cup finals. The ones that bad moves outweigh the good are the ones that do not make the playoffs regularly.
- Jul 20, 2005
- 4,923
- 2,329
That's like saying a single penny has value. It is technically true. But it isn't.
The teams "future" was bleak. The 3 top 10 picks were all busts. The system was barren. I mean completely barren. The young players were not impact players. Was there a single player drafted by Smith over the entire 90's that was still on the team that was or went on to be an impact player? Johnsson? Maybe? The team was set up for years and years of disaster.
The "present" wasn't much better. They had missed the playoffs 3 years in a row. Their core was aging. Leetch was 32 at the start of Sathers first season. Richter was 33. Fleury was 32. The support players were awful. You basically had the Nedved line who were entertaining but streaky and usually on ice for as many goals for as against. And they were the bright spot.
Here's my litmus test: when I find myself praying that the newly assembled Alexander Daigle-Tim Taylor-John Maclean line can continue to carry the team for a few more game.... I know we are in trouble. Scratch that, we aren't just in trouble.... the apocalypse is extremely f'ing nigh.
That team was a f'ing mess.
Talent? HA!
Thats BS. He came in here and operated the team in much the same way that led to the malaise he inherited from 2000-2004. The purge of 2004 changed a lot of things. The emergence of Lundqvist, almost out of nowhere, was the other huge factor.
Theres been speed bumps along the way, but kudos to Sather for finally constructing a team that made it to the finals.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,193
- 9,199
Shocking that you would think that was BS. LOL
The NY Rangers in 2005 with 100 points made the playoffs for the first time in 7 seasons. (4 under Slats).
They had 0 players that Slats had inherited from Smith. So if Slats did not help rebuild that team who did?
Its his responsibility to make sure the draft picks develop. The draft is a crapshoot yes, but if you miss one top ten pick that is bound to happen but miss on both is an issue. On top of that, he gave away picks the next few years, so the team being bereft of talent is on him. Fleury might have had issues but the man still put up almost 70 points for us.
1999–00 New York Rangers 80 15 49 64 68
2000–01 New York Rangers 62 30 44 74 122
2001–02 New York Rangers 82 24 39 63 216
When he did keep his draft picks he whiffed badly. So the talent drain was on him. As for the team aging, you're absolutely right. The teams average age was up there, but who brought back Messier in his first season, and kept the team old by getting guys like Kaspirits and Holik. He also inherited plenty of youth in guys like Malholtra, Jonson, York, and Hlavac who had decent years which you are overlooking.
Again, the only reason the team bounced back in my opinion is because of Don Maloney. he let the guy do his as the VP of Player Personnel and it paid off. Maloney deserves more credit for our turnaround then Sather. For every Jagr Sather had a Lindros, Carter, and Bure. I am not counting Nash and St. Louis yet because I want to see what they can do during the tenure of their Rangers Career. For every Lundqvist (which he got extremely lucky on), he had a Blackburn and Montoya. I really do think people are letting this stanley cup visit cloud them on the totality of the man's accomplishments here. For every Kreider he had a Jessiman. I am trying to think of a free agent signing the man had that was decent to make a comparable but I am genuinely drawing a blank.
Sather had more time than Smith. But yes, if the Rangers win the Cup, one way or the other, Sather gets a place in franchise history alongside of Smith.
Let's be fair, he did not exactly help the situation.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,193
- 9,199
So lets get this straight. Slats is responsible for Brendl and Ludmark being bad top 10 draft picks despite them being drafted before Slats was even a Ranger?
Slats is to blame for any bad draft picks after he was hired.
Slats is not to get credit for any of the good draft picks after he was hired.
Slats is to blame for us missing the playoffs for 7 straight seasons even though he was only a Ranger for 4 of the seasons?
Slats should be fired for missing the playoffs for 4 seasons from 2000-2004 instead of being praised for making the playoffs in 8 of the last 9 seasons 2005-2014 including this seasons run to the cup finals.
Sure that sounds fair and logical.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
- 44,300
- 21,901
He didn't help it and that's not even up for debate in my opinion.
I still hold Smith above Sather even if he does win us the cup. Smith broke a 54 year old curse. Sather just finally did something truly right.
I disagree with people's assessment of our farm. We also have no need to rely on the farm for a good 3 or 4 years so we can afford to have it drained
There are massive differences between what Smith did and what Sather has done with the recent trades.
Look at the quality, ages and careers of the guys traded away (or picks) and the quality and ages of what was brought in. Also look at the massive difference in the quality and age of the players retained.
Fasth, Staal, McD, Hagelin, Moore, Stralman, Talbot, Zucc, Brass, Stepan, kreider ALL are still on or JUST finishing their RFA contracts. That's a TON of youth. Technically Hank is just finishing his RFA contract too but we won't count that for obvious reasons. The team is built primarily on youth right now and can be sustained while the farm builds itself back up for 3 or 4 years.
The moaning about the recent Sather trades was ridiculous in how overblown it was. The ridiculous criteria some people have for evaluating these moves is SMH worthy.
There IS stuff to moan about but it just went too far.
My point is that Sather continued the mess from 2000-2004, and the purge of 2004 was the starting point of something better.
Your counterpoint was that 2005 was a very good year. Way to comprehend!
Still doesn't change the fact that its BS for you to say that Sather was busy building up the farm in his first couple of years. Thats a fallacy if I ever saw one.
Shame on whoever is bumping this thread. Win or lose there will be an entire summer to discuss 'fire glen sather', but this is not the time.
Most of you know my feelings on Sather, but this is not even the time to discuss them. Let's all row in the same direction for a change, and discuss this in three weeks.
We have a common enemy right now (or we will soon), and it is not each other.
Most of you know my feelings on Sather, but this is not even the time to discuss them. Let's all row in the same direction for a change, and discuss this in three weeks.
We have a common enemy right now (or we will soon), and it is not each other.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,193
- 9,199
NYR drafted from 2000-2005 that played on the big club eventually.
Henrik Lundquist, Dominic Moore, Hollweg, Muarry, Fedor Tyutin, Dan Blackburn, Peter Prucha, Nigel Dawes, Corey Potter, Ryan Callaghan, Brandon Dubinsky, Lauri Korposki, Michael Sauer, Marc Staal.
So you want to fire him for 2000-2004? And ignore 2005-2014?
When you bashed Zooks non stop I knew we had a good player.
When you bashed this team non stop I knew we had a good team.
When you bashed the firing of Torts I knew it was the right move.
Almost everything you say out of bitterness I know the opposite will be true.
I hope one day you come to a George Constanza like revelation and do the opposite of what your bitter feelings tell you to do. Instead of tuna on toast try the chicken salad on rye. You might like it.
I agree Bleed Ranger...
told myself I didn't want to get back into this debate while the team is going to the Stanley Cup Finals, but found myself in a bit of a lull. Sather inherited a bad team that picked up some bad habits. He inherited an organization that had few prospects and his first draft pick as GM, after the Rangers once again missed the playoffs, was somewhere around 64. What he did do is inflate the payroll to about $80MM, traded for some guys, signed some others, and never got the right mix of players to get anything going, and he didn't have a coach that could get anything going (although I like some of what Low did, especially with the youth, most of which turned out to sputter after their short Rangers career). He continued the Rangers on the same path as his predecessor and did little to distinguish himself. However, perhaps there was a master plan. Perhaps he was smarter than the rest of the league and he had insight into the coming cap. He got Jagr for a song, signed a bunch of guys that would play well with Jagr, got a few kids to play and the team makes the playoffs the next three seasons in what seemingly was a restart, all the while trying to build the farm (success is debatable, but strategy was sound) and build a winner. My opinion then and today was he should not have been the GM when the league came out of the lockout. My opinion hasn't changed.
told myself I didn't want to get back into this debate while the team is going to the Stanley Cup Finals, but found myself in a bit of a lull. Sather inherited a bad team that picked up some bad habits. He inherited an organization that had few prospects and his first draft pick as GM, after the Rangers once again missed the playoffs, was somewhere around 64. What he did do is inflate the payroll to about $80MM, traded for some guys, signed some others, and never got the right mix of players to get anything going, and he didn't have a coach that could get anything going (although I like some of what Low did, especially with the youth, most of which turned out to sputter after their short Rangers career). He continued the Rangers on the same path as his predecessor and did little to distinguish himself. However, perhaps there was a master plan. Perhaps he was smarter than the rest of the league and he had insight into the coming cap. He got Jagr for a song, signed a bunch of guys that would play well with Jagr, got a few kids to play and the team makes the playoffs the next three seasons in what seemingly was a restart, all the while trying to build the farm (success is debatable, but strategy was sound) and build a winner. My opinion then and today was he should not have been the GM when the league came out of the lockout. My opinion hasn't changed.
Inferno
Registered User
the problem with Sathers teams werent the contracts he gave out nearly as much as their inability to have the depth (from the farm) to replace the players when injuries inevitably happen.
There was no JT Miller to fill in for Stepan when he broke his jaw. There was no Jesper Fasth, or Diaz, or Falk, or all the other players we have had to use ot fill in for injuries.
remember, we lost Nash & kreider for extended injuries this season. thats 2/3rds of your top line for probably 10-15 games each, right?
when sather first got here, when the big players went down with injuries, the season was essentially over.
would a post Smith team have been able to overcome the hororshow henrik had to start the season? Talbot was amazing and really helped settle things down.
The difference between Sather then and now is 1 thing. Depth. He's done a really good job getting scrapheap players to be huge parts of this team, and they step up when the need arise.
we're healthy right now, that's also huge.
There was no JT Miller to fill in for Stepan when he broke his jaw. There was no Jesper Fasth, or Diaz, or Falk, or all the other players we have had to use ot fill in for injuries.
remember, we lost Nash & kreider for extended injuries this season. thats 2/3rds of your top line for probably 10-15 games each, right?
when sather first got here, when the big players went down with injuries, the season was essentially over.
would a post Smith team have been able to overcome the hororshow henrik had to start the season? Talbot was amazing and really helped settle things down.
The difference between Sather then and now is 1 thing. Depth. He's done a really good job getting scrapheap players to be huge parts of this team, and they step up when the need arise.
we're healthy right now, that's also huge.
I mentioned this in a similar thread on the main board but I think Sather also had to learn that an unlimited budget wasn't by itself a recipe for success. I feel like he had all those years in Edmonton trying to put together successful teams on a budget and he had that famous "I'd make the playoffs every year if I could spend like NY" quote. He got to NY, tried to spend like money was water, and eventually found out that you really CAN'T just build a team like that (even if it took him 4 years or so...).
During that time he had to rebuild the teams scouting and farm system infrastructure as well so it's not like he had a healthy farm system to fall back on when the spending didn't work. Maybe he should have tanked for high draft picks in those years, probably the smarter thing to do, but hey I'm not saying he's perfect or excusing him of mistakes.
Another big thing he had to learn is that he had to find an actual good coach instead of the guys he tried.
Maybe the cap did eventually change his ways, or maybe it was him finding the right coach and some of the infrastructure rebuilding coming to fruition, I dunno, but he's been alright overall since then. And if you want to give credit to the guys under him I think you still have to give credit to Sather for hiring them and letting them do their jobs.
Ultimately though...part of me wants the Rangers to win the cup this year so he'll retire and Gorton will take over instead of leaving for Pittsburgh or something. If the Rangers lose Gorton, and Ulf, and have all those free agents to sign...man it could be a rough summer of transition.
During that time he had to rebuild the teams scouting and farm system infrastructure as well so it's not like he had a healthy farm system to fall back on when the spending didn't work. Maybe he should have tanked for high draft picks in those years, probably the smarter thing to do, but hey I'm not saying he's perfect or excusing him of mistakes.
Another big thing he had to learn is that he had to find an actual good coach instead of the guys he tried.
Maybe the cap did eventually change his ways, or maybe it was him finding the right coach and some of the infrastructure rebuilding coming to fruition, I dunno, but he's been alright overall since then. And if you want to give credit to the guys under him I think you still have to give credit to Sather for hiring them and letting them do their jobs.
Ultimately though...part of me wants the Rangers to win the cup this year so he'll retire and Gorton will take over instead of leaving for Pittsburgh or something. If the Rangers lose Gorton, and Ulf, and have all those free agents to sign...man it could be a rough summer of transition.
Ironic and surprised it is not a larger part of this discussion....
The post lockout Glen Sather has done his best work in a salary cap environment.
Smith and then Sather right after thim were both disasters when they tried to run the franchise like the Yankees and buy every new shiny toy available.
Many still accuse the Rangers of buying every shiny new toy, but it's obvious they no longer make those moves in a vaccuum, They are spending the same as everybody else on salaries unlike the late 90's / early 2000 when Ranger payroll was astronomical. Making the playoffs 7 of 8 years is an achievment to be proud of.
The advent of the hard cap actually put Glen Sather's focus back where it belonged all along...Player personnel. We would all agree that in terms of signing free agnets he has been something of a disaster.
The post lockout Glen Sather has done his best work in a salary cap environment.
Smith and then Sather right after thim were both disasters when they tried to run the franchise like the Yankees and buy every new shiny toy available.
Many still accuse the Rangers of buying every shiny new toy, but it's obvious they no longer make those moves in a vaccuum, They are spending the same as everybody else on salaries unlike the late 90's / early 2000 when Ranger payroll was astronomical. Making the playoffs 7 of 8 years is an achievment to be proud of.
The advent of the hard cap actually put Glen Sather's focus back where it belonged all along...Player personnel. We would all agree that in terms of signing free agnets he has been something of a disaster.
that's right, Levitate. I think he underestimated the difficulties of building a team even with an unlimited budget, and that because you have it you fall into traps. An unlimited budget helps tremendously. You can go from cellar to top team in a year (the Rangers did have a huge swing differential from 92-93 to 93-94, and money helped), but you need a base from which to build. You don't start a building with the 21st floor, you start in the basement for a reason, and it's like that with hockey too. The Yankees were successful once that core came through the farm. They kept finding young talent and kept buying what they were missing. It can work, for a period of time, but it's not all that's needed and you need to buy right and staff correctly around them. Still amazing how much this organization spent after Mess left and how bad the results were; it did allow me to get season tickets after being on a waiting list since '93, though, so I had that going for me.
