Speculation: Fire Glen Sather

[bagh]

You would think so.

I really do think whether or not we win the cup, we need a change. I am a firm believer that most of our successes were the direct result of Don Maloney. Most of the guys we drafted who are our core were under Maloney and the guys who we got through trades we got by trading away guys he drafted.

I mean, look at what he has done in Phoenix with limited resources. Him and Tipett are pretty much miracle workers.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Boogaard and Rupp? Brashear, yuck, but Nothing wrong with those two, explain?

Neither contributed much on the ice, and both had multi-year $1.5M+ contracts.

Rupp used to be a semi-useful player, but injuries had done him in when he became a Ranger.

Boogaard was never a good hockey player period. He was a top fighter, but fighting is a useless part of hockey.

Newbury or Mashinter could provide pretty much the same in terms of hockey ability at a much cheaper price.

 

[NickyFotiu]

There is not a team in the NHL that has not made a bad trade, bad draft pick or bad free agent signing. We have done all 3 just like every other team in the league. Years ago lounge chair GMs on Hockey futures were totally bashing Chicago's management over their contract situations yet they won 2 cups in 4 years. The bottom line is we are going to the Stanley Cup finals.

 

[BLOCKERSAVE]

Why can Sather be the President or whatever he was to call himself and let Gorton be the permanent GM. If Sather wants 2 income (President/GM) Let Dolan pay him. How hard can that be?

 

[Inferno]

i think Torts had a lot to do with bringing in those players. it was weird. he always seemed to like having those players, but hated to actually play those players.

AV seems to not give a flying frak about enforceres, which im VERY thankful for.

 

[bagh]

There is not a team in the NHL that has not made a bad trade, bad draft pick or bad free agent signing. We have done all 3 just like every other team in the league. Years ago lounge chair GMs on Hockey futures were totally bashing Chicago's management over their contract situations yet they won 2 cups in 4 years. The bottom line is we are going to the Stanley Cup finals.

Bad comparison. The guy that handed out those contracts is in Florida now after winning the first one and the guy that replaced him got rid off guys with bloated contracts and restructured the team.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Bad comparison. The guy that handed out those contracts is in Florida now after winning the first one and the guy that replaced him got rid off guys with bloated contracts and restructured the team.

Which guy are you referring to? Wasn't Bowman also there from before the first cup and still there?

 

[Trxjw]

There is not a team in the NHL that has not made a bad trade, bad draft pick or bad free agent signing. We have done all 3 just like every other team in the league. Years ago lounge chair GMs on Hockey futures were totally bashing Chicago's management over their contract situations yet they won 2 cups in 4 years. The bottom line is we are going to the Stanley Cup finals.

Ironically they fired the guy who put them in that cap situation..

 

[Beacon]

AV seems to not give a flying frak about enforceres, which im VERY thankful for.

AV did plug in Carbomb (together with Dorsett) the last game over Miller and Fast. He was also here when Carbomb was acquired, so he likely had input on that.

It could be said that Carbomb played because the Habs threatened Hank and Kreider, but I think most coaches place greater value on tough guys than fans realize.

On the other hand, once McIlrath is here, no need for enforcers against teams like Montreal and Pittsburgh. Maybe a team like Boston will need MCI and an enforcer, but against most teams we can run a fourth like made up of guys like Dominic Moore.

 

[bagh]

Which guy are you referring to? Wasn't Bowman also there from before the first cup and still there?

Yeah, but Tallon was the one doing all the contracts and making the trades. Bowman just cleaned up the mess by unloading guys like Brian Campbelll on Tallon.

By the way:

Soon thereafter, on July 14, 2009, the Blackhawks demoted Tallon to the position of Senior Advisor, while Stan Bowman, son of Scotty Bowman, was promoted to general manager.[10] The following day, Havlat, who was no longer a Blackhawk, criticized the team's management and defended Tallon.[11] He stated, "Every single player on that team is with Dale. I still talk to the guys all the time, hockey players know a phony when they see one."[11] He specifically berated John McDonough, the team's president, commenting "McDonough couldn't stand that Dale was so successful and getting the credit for building the Hawks from a last place team to making the Conference Finals in 3 short years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Tallon

Essentially the cap situation was Tallon's doing and his alone. The players he brought in on bloated contracts were his responsibility. Bowman just cleaned up his mess.

 

[GAGLine]

win the cup and all is forgiven. all.

This is it exactly. I've said it many times that we may agree or disagree with the individual moves, but if it results in a cup, who cares?

The problem is that as yet, it hasn't resulted in a cup. Any other GM likely would have been fired long ago, if not for the mistakes he has made, then for the overall lack of success. Ray Shero just got fired 5 years after winning the cup. This isn't a Neil Smith situation either where the team missed the playoffs for 3 years. Pittsburgh made the ECF last year, but got swept by boston. They have very high expectations and the team didn't live up to them, so Shero was fired, and Bylsma is most likely to be gone too.

We've had our best 2 seasons in the last 3 years and have a good chance to make it to the finals this year, so Sather definitely deserves credit for that. But ask yourself this: Why was Torts fired? Was it because the team fell short of expectations, or because management didn't believe that Torts was the right coach for this team going forward?

I think it's pretty obvious that it was the latter. IMO, the same holds true for Sather. Forget for a moment what Sather has done to this point. Do you feel that Sather is the best GM for this team going forward? I don't.

We don't know how much Sather factors into the decisions at this point. Obviously Gorton is involved, but how much control does he have? Personally, I trust Gorton more than I do Sather and would rather see him have full control. If Sather still wants to be involved, then make Gorton the GM and Sather can retain the President title. Gorton has been AGM for 3 years and the last 3 years have been our best since Sather took over. Coincidence? Maybe, but I'd much rather have Gorton running the show going forward.

Obviously Sather isn't going to get fired. My hope is that he will either retire or hand over the GM job to Gorton and remain as President. With the rumors of pittsburgh's interest in Gorton, maybe that will force Sather's hand. Or if we win the cup, maybe Sather will want to go out a winner. Either way, I would be happy.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I did not follow their situation closely so if I'm wrong than I'm wrong but didn't both Talon and Bowman deserve credit for the team that has won 2 cups for Chicago? Didn't Talon play a large role in getting many of their key guys like Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Kane, etc on that team?

 

[pld459666]

Aren't we taking a chance waiting? Shouldn't we fire him now before he has a chance to win any more games?

Or we can wait for him to further deplete the organization setting us up for another 7 year period of darkness.

 

[Inferno]

AV did plug in Carbomb (together with Dorsett) the last game over Miller and Fast. He was also here when Carbomb was acquired, so he likely had input on that.

It could be said that Carbomb played because the Habs threatened Hank and Kreider, but I think most coaches place greater value on tough guys than fans realize.

On the other hand, once McIlrath is here, no need for enforcers against teams like Montreal and Pittsburgh. Maybe a team like Boston will need MCI and an enforcer, but against most teams we can run a fourth like made up of guys like Dominic Moore.

ive never considered carcillo an enforcer. he's as much of an enforcer as dorsett is. a middleweight who will fight if need be.

carcillo is a pest to me.

 

[bagh]

I did not follow their situation closely so if I'm wrong than I'm wrong but didn't both Talon and Bowman deserve credit for the team that has won 2 cups for Chicago? Didn't Talon play a large role in getting many of their key guys like Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Kane, etc on that team?

I will give him credit for acquiring those guys, but in my mind you also got to take into consideration that he was in the position of taking guys like Toews and Kane because he was bad at his job. He went on a spending spree after the lockout and got khabibulin, lapointe and i forget who else on bloated contracts and crapped the bed. Those high picks bailed him out. Tallon is always looking for quick fixes and that knee caps the team he is working for in the long run (see Florida and their first playoff run under him). Also, in terms of Hossa, by signing him, they lost their depth by getting rid of Byfuglin, Sopel, Eager and a whole bunch which took Bowman about a year or so to rebuild.

So to reiterate my original point, it isn't a good comparison.

 

[pld459666]

You would think so.

I'm in 100% agreement with SBOB

I want him gone.

Cup or no Cup.

 

[GAGLine]

I did not follow their situation closely so if I'm wrong than I'm wrong but didn't both Talon and Bowman deserve credit for the team that has won 2 cups for Chicago? Didn't Talon play a large role in getting many of their key guys like Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Kane, etc on that team?

Talon got fired basically because he screwed up on submitting his qualifying offers. He didn't get them in on time and several players became UFA as a result. He had to give them more than he wanted to so that no other team would jump in and sign them. The year after they won the cup, they had to trade a lot of players to get under the cap. It's a huge credit to the current management that they were able to overcome that and build another winner.

If Talon didn't screw up, they still would have had to trade players after their first cup run, but the problem wouldn't have been as bad.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Or we can wait for him to further deplete the organization setting us up for another 7 year period of darkness.

He must be really bad to get the blame for 3 non playoff seasons (98,99,00) and the emptying of a farm system when he was not even with the team.

Do you think what happened from 2000/2001-2004 is more important than from 2005-2014?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Talon got fired basically because he screwed up on submitting his qualifying offers. He didn't get them in on time and several players became UFA as a result. He had to give them more than he wanted to so that no other team would jump in and sign them. The year after they won the cup, they had to trade a lot of players to get under the cap. It's a huge credit to the current management that they were able to overcome that and build another winner.

If Talon didn't screw up, they still would have had to trade players after their first cup run, but the problem wouldn't have been as bad.

Thanks for the explanation. That was a major screw up so I can understand the team removing him but it sounds like he did a lot of good as well. Like many successful GMs they have both good and bad moves. The successful GMs are not perfect. They just have their good moves outweigh their bad moves.

 

[bagh]

He must be really bad to get the blame for 3 non playoff seasons (98,99,00) and the emptying of a farm system when he was not even with the team.

Do you think what happened from 2000/2001-2004 is more important than from 2005-2014?

Again, I give more credit to Maloney than Sather. He came in 2000 and started putting together all star teams and sucked. If you were a big name in 2000-2005, and a FA, Sather had a big hard on for you and went after you like a horny senior on prom night. The only guys we hit on for the Rangers were guys we drafted moreso than on free agency. If you compare Sather's draft pre and post maloney, he only did well on the 2008 draft and only of those guys is a core piece.

if you look at the guys we got that we traded prior to 2007, you will see a lot of those guys were traded for guys we got now (i.e. St. Louis and Nash).

After 2007, you also see a shift back to a focus on free agency (see scott Gomez, Chris Drury, Marion Gaborik, et all).

Like I said before, I believe Don Maloney had a lot more to do with our success than Sather. He just likes going after shiny toys now and makes splashes and has no focus on long term planning any more and that will screw us.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Again, I give more credit to Maloney than Sather. He came in 2000 and started putting together all star teams and sucked. If you were a big name in 2000-2005, and a FA, Sather had a big hard on for you and went after you like a horny senior on prom night. The only guys we hit on for the Rangers were guys we drafted moreso than on free agency. If you compare Sather's draft pre and post maloney, he only did well on the 2008 draft and only of those guys is a core piece.

if you look at the guys we got that we traded prior to 2007, you will see a lot of those guys were traded for guys we got now (i.e. St. Louis and Nash).

After 2007, you also see a shift back to a focus on free agency (see scott Gomez, Chris Drury, Marion Gaborik, et all).

Like I said before, I believe Don Maloney had a lot more to do with our success than Sather. He just likes going after shiny toys now and makes splashes and has no focus on long term planning any more and that will screw us.

I personally can not just give blame for bad moves and not credit for good moves. Guys like Renney, Slats, Maloney, Torts, Clark, etc all have a say in drafts, trades and FA. It is never just 1 guy for good or bad. Renney has said multiple times he was the one that pushed for us to draft Jessiman. When we drafted Cherpy it was Slats who was traveling to Russia multiple times before the draft to scout him. You mention some bad acquisitions and ignore the good (Jagr, Nylander, Straka, McD, etc)

 

[bagh]

Another reason I don't want Sather back as the GM is that he always screws up contract negotiations and gives way more then the player is worth. More than a few people raised their eyebrows at the contracts Drury and Gomez got. He overays everyone. The most recent example I cn think of is Dan Girardi. He makes as much as Martin St. louis, and I can almost gurantee you when McDonagh's contract comes due he is going to use Girardi as a comparisont and wont take less than 8 million a year.

 

[bagh]

I personally can not just give blame for bad moves and not credit for good moves. Guys like Renney, Slats, Maloney, Torts, Clark, etc all have a say in drafts, trades and FA. It is never just 1 guy for good or bad. Renney has said multiple times he was the one that pushed for us to draft Jessiman. When we drafted Cherpy it was Slats who was traveling to Russia multiple times before the draft to scout him. You mention some bad acquisitions and ignore the good (Jagr, Nylander, Straka, McD, etc)

Yeah, and I also mention that Sather lacks long term thinking and has an affinity to chase shiny toys. He broke up Straka, Nylander and Jagr in favor of the Gomez drury experiment. How did that turn out?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yeah, and I also mention that Sather lacks long term thinking and has an affinity to chase shiny toys. He broke up Straka, Nylander and Jagr in favor of the Gomez drury experiment. How did that turn out?

I was against signing Drury but most the hockey talking heads picked us us for the cup after those signings. How much money and years did Nylander want? Were any Ranger fans in favor of giving him the contract he sought? How did it work out for the Caps? Sometimes we need to look at things in full context. Marty Straka retired (from the NHL) as a Ranger. If Slats did not think long term a lot of our younger players would have been traded. You can not always think long term or short term. There has to be some balance. I believe our current team with Lundy, Kreider, Stepan, Zooks, McD, Nash, and St. Louis show a balance.

 

[GAGLine]

Thanks for the explanation. That was a major screw up so I can understand the team removing him but it sounds like he did a lot of good as well. Like many successful GMs they have both good and bad moves. The successful GMs are not perfect. They just have their good moves outweigh their bad moves.

Right, which is why ultimately, everyone gets judged on the results. You may look at the most recent 3 year stretch and be happy with the results, but I feel that it's necessary to look at the entire body of work. IMO, and in the opinion of many others, Sather should have been fired long ago. Our recent success doesn't change that, and it doesn't make me confident in Sather's ability to run this team going forward.

We fired Torts because he wasn't the best option to coach this team going forward. Can you honestly say that Sather is the best option as GM for the foreseeable future?