OT: Everything COVID19 - PART 8

[YouGotAStuGoing]

The savings potential of using all AZ over all moderna to vacinate all Canadians is probably around 2 billion, not that we would ever do all of one or another. I think those savings would probably be exceeded by the savings of getting to heard immunity as quickly as possible though...

Oh, for sure. It's a negligible savings overall relative to the cost. But it's still a better alternative to using the more expensive vaccines and ditching the less expensive but still effective ones. I'm just saying, if we're gonna be bagging on government for being cheap, I'm not sure this is the most logical spot to be critical.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

OK, but there are many factors at play here. Retired people for example do not have to go to work and are much more able to isolate themselves. Stemming spread across society benefits everyone, including the most vulnerable

I agree with what you’re saying. I think we need to give the older population a bit of a chance/head start to get the vaccine. But after that open it up to everyone. I think that’s what our governments are doing. They are moving through the age ranges pretty quickly and with how much vaccine hesitancy there’s been I think they are moving through the age ranges quicker then they originally planned.

 

[Micklebot]

Oh, for sure. It's a negligible savings overall relative to the cost. But it's still a better alternative to using the more expensive vaccines and ditching the less expensive but still effective ones. I'm just saying, if we're gonna be bagging on government for being cheap, I'm not sure this is the most logical spot to be critical.

Yeah, my intent was to amplify that sentiment though I t didn't come off that way

Cost savings will be achieved by maximizing the use of all options and getting to heard immunity quickly, pushing the one that people are currently hesitant about likely has more to do with speeding up the process than saving money by flipping which one gets used. Now if we cancel orders of Moderna for no apparent reason, then we can discuss penny pinching.

 

[Masked]

AZ doesn't require a freezer, so that may have something to do with it.

Exactly why I was wondering about the calculation.

 

[branch]

Does anyone know if vertigo/lightheadedness with fatigue is a symptom?

 

[Stylizer1]

Does anyone know if vertigo/lightheadedness with fatigue is a symptom?

STONE!!!

lol

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Does anyone know if vertigo/lightheadedness with fatigue is a symptom?

Of Covid or the vaccine?

 

[Beech]

if reports are accurate, this will become a new FLU. So yearly shots. Unlike the flu, were we seem to accept about a net 20% of the population getting that vaccine, this virus is way more contagious and 10 times deadlier. In fact much closer to 100 times deadlier.

The flu is around .089% in an uncontrolled society. No one hides from the flu. So far, with humanity undergoing one of the greatest "run and hide" process in its history, we are at 0.4 %. In an unchecked system, the death rate will be much closer to 2-3%.

So every year, roughly 30 million Canadians may need a vaccine. The covid vaccination industry will become on par with the MTO and our drivers licence and car registration, massive.

At 30 million people and growing, and at 2 shots, imagine the costs! Add to it transport and storage, we are talking a cost of about $100 per person in 2022 and increasing as we move outwards if we go with Moderna or Pfizer. That is $3 billion dollars. This amount can be multiplied by 3 or 4 if you figure in the administration costs...ALL YOU GOVERNMENT WORKERS..how much do you cost us?????

So around 9-12 billion a year. How long before the government turns that over to you and say "not covered by the government, you must pay". So a family of 4 must pay around $1200 in 2022 and moving outwards. HOW MANY WILL???? and what happens if we fall below the herd immunity threshold?

Now repeat for AZ...net cost ~ 4 billion. Or a family of 4 will pay $300.....in fact, it would make sense for the government to retain control and offer it free (HA HA..taxes)..But 4 billion is an easier pill than 12 billion. 12 billion means every Canadian tax payer will pay around $800/year, versus the $200 year for AZ.

When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money.

 

[BankStreetParade]

if reports are accurate, this will become a new FLU. So yearly shots. Unlike the flu, were we seem to accept about a net 20% of the population getting that vaccine, this virus is way more contagious and 10 times deadlier. In fact much closer to 100 times deadlier.

The flu is around .089% in an uncontrolled society. No one hides from the flu. So far, with humanity undergoing one of the greatest "run and hide" process in its history, we are at 0.4 %. In an unchecked system, the death rate will be much closer to 2-3%.

So every year, roughly 30 million Canadians may need a vaccine. The covid vaccination industry will become on par with the MTO and our drivers licence and car registration, massive.

At 30 million people and growing, and at 2 shots, imagine the costs! Add to it transport and storage, we are talking a cost of about $100 per person in 2022 and increasing as we move outwards if we go with Moderna or Pfizer. That is $3 billion dollars. This amount can be multiplied by 3 or 4 if you figure in the administration costs...ALL YOU GOVERNMENT WORKERS..how much do you cost us?????

So around 9-12 billion a year. How long before the government turns that over to you and say "not covered by the government, you must pay". So a family of 4 must pay around $1200 in 2022 and moving outwards. HOW MANY WILL???? and what happens if we fall below the herd immunity threshold?

Now repeat for AZ...net cost ~ 4 billion. Or a family of 4 will pay $300.....in fact, it would make sense for the government to retain control and offer it free (HA HA..taxes)..But 4 billion is an easier pill than 12 billion. 12 billion means every Canadian tax payer will pay around $800/year, versus the $200 year for AZ.

When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money.

Vaccine production becomes cheaper over time, not more expensive. You've written all that under a wrong assumption. There's effective vaccines that are being tested now that can be mass produced through chicken eggs at very low cost. Only need to be refrigerated and don't have the same expiries that certain vaccines currently do.

The scenario you're envisioning is not only not on the table, it's not even in the dining room.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

if reports are accurate, this will become a new FLU. So yearly shots. Unlike the flu, were we seem to accept about a net 20% of the population getting that vaccine, this virus is way more contagious and 10 times deadlier. In fact much closer to 100 times deadlier.

The flu is around .089% in an uncontrolled society. No one hides from the flu. So far, with humanity undergoing one of the greatest "run and hide" process in its history, we are at 0.4 %. In an unchecked system, the death rate will be much closer to 2-3%.

So every year, roughly 30 million Canadians may need a vaccine. The covid vaccination industry will become on par with the MTO and our drivers licence and car registration, massive.

At 30 million people and growing, and at 2 shots, imagine the costs! Add to it transport and storage, we are talking a cost of about $100 per person in 2022 and increasing as we move outwards if we go with Moderna or Pfizer. That is $3 billion dollars. This amount can be multiplied by 3 or 4 if you figure in the administration costs...ALL YOU GOVERNMENT WORKERS..how much do you cost us?????

So around 9-12 billion a year. How long before the government turns that over to you and say "not covered by the government, you must pay". So a family of 4 must pay around $1200 in 2022 and moving outwards. HOW MANY WILL???? and what happens if we fall below the herd immunity threshold?

Now repeat for AZ...net cost ~ 4 billion. Or a family of 4 will pay $300.....in fact, it would make sense for the government to retain control and offer it free (HA HA..taxes)..But 4 billion is an easier pill than 12 billion. 12 billion means every Canadian tax payer will pay around $800/year, versus the $200 year for AZ.

When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money.

Everything is about the money in our society. Everything.

Or at least -- money is a strong consideration in every decision our society makes. Maybe not the only consideration, but a very strong consideration.

 

[maclean]

I agree with what you’re saying. I think we need to give the older population a bit of a chance/head start to get the vaccine. But after that open it up to everyone. I think that’s what our governments are doing. They are moving through the age ranges pretty quickly and with how much vaccine hesitancy there’s been I think they are moving through the age ranges quicker then they originally planned.

Yeah, the progress does seem to be happening in Canada...
The places where vaccination has been most successful seem to be those where they've offered it to as many people as possible, Israel and the US come to mind. Here in the Czech Republic it's only just been opened for those 65+ and it's not like they're done with those older - a lot of the highest risk groups are unfortunately also those it's hardest to get the vaccine to logistically. However many months of vaccination and it's still going to be probably the end of June before it will get down to the 40+ age group here. Not to be insensitive or morbid but my ex-wife (who works at an old folks home) recently commented that at her place of work they gave the vaccine to a terminally ill leukemia patient who died the next day... Personally I'm fully content to wait my turn, but a balance does need to be struck.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

if reports are accurate, this will become a new FLU. So yearly shots. Unlike the flu, were we seem to accept about a net 20% of the population getting that vaccine, this virus is way more contagious and 10 times deadlier. In fact much closer to 100 times deadlier.

The flu is around .089% in an uncontrolled society. No one hides from the flu. So far, with humanity undergoing one of the greatest "run and hide" process in its history, we are at 0.4 %. In an unchecked system, the death rate will be much closer to 2-3%.

So every year, roughly 30 million Canadians may need a vaccine. The covid vaccination industry will become on par with the MTO and our drivers licence and car registration, massive.

At 30 million people and growing, and at 2 shots, imagine the costs! Add to it transport and storage, we are talking a cost of about $100 per person in 2022 and increasing as we move outwards if we go with Moderna or Pfizer. That is $3 billion dollars. This amount can be multiplied by 3 or 4 if you figure in the administration costs...ALL YOU GOVERNMENT WORKERS..how much do you cost us?????

So around 9-12 billion a year. How long before the government turns that over to you and say "not covered by the government, you must pay". So a family of 4 must pay around $1200 in 2022 and moving outwards. HOW MANY WILL???? and what happens if we fall below the herd immunity threshold?

Now repeat for AZ...net cost ~ 4 billion. Or a family of 4 will pay $300.....in fact, it would make sense for the government to retain control and offer it free (HA HA..taxes)..But 4 billion is an easier pill than 12 billion. 12 billion means every Canadian tax payer will pay around $800/year, versus the $200 year for AZ.

When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money.

But I think your "when they say it's not about the money" portion is referring to your earlier post about the government pushing AstraZeneca?

If so, that is driven more by current vaccine supply and the dramatic situation we are in with the 3rd wave. IE, we have a number of AstraZeneca doses right now, while the supply of Moderna and PFizer is coming at us too slowly to get us out of the 3rd wave.

IE, if we had 30M Pfizer doses in fridge's right now, the government would probably not be "pushing" AZ. But we don't.

 

[coladin]

Just got my appointment setup

How?
I tried last night but to no avail. Today, I put my name in the databases of Shoppers, Coscto, Pharmasave, etc...but could not make an appointment. Did you do it by walking in or by phone?

 

[coladin]

Does anyone know if vertigo/lightheadedness with fatigue is a symptom?

Don't think so. That sounds like an inner ear infection

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

How?
I tried last night but to no avail. Today, I put my name in the databases of Shoppers, Coscto, Pharmasave, etc...but could not make an appointment. Did you do it by walking in or by phone?

I signed up for about 12 different local pharmacies, a couple of weeks ago. This was for the wait list. I also know someone who owns a pharmacy who can also get us in. I just got a text from Rexall but will cancel that appt., because we are set at the pharmacist we know.

 

[branch]

Of Covid or the vaccine?

The virus itself...

 

[branch]

Don't think so. That sounds like an inner ear infection

I've been thinking this too

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

I've been thinking this too

Probably worth getting checked out at a Doctors office/clinic, although they might give you a hard time getting in with the fatigue symptoms. Might have to do a phone call.

I picked up an ear infection from a strip club in 2017, probably was one of the most sick days I’ve ever had. I was a student at the time, and lived on campus, and the walk to the school Dr was the hardest things.

 

[SPF6ty9]

Vaccine production becomes cheaper over time, not more expensive. You've written all that under a wrong assumption. There's effective vaccines that are being tested now that can be mass produced through chicken eggs at very low cost. Only need to be refrigerated and don't have the same expiries that certain vaccines currently do.

The scenario you're envisioning is not only not on the table, it's not even in the dining room.

Economies of scale would certainly improve over time. That said, and I wish I could find the exact quote but I don't want to have to dive through entire Pfizer earnings reports; I believe their CEO basically came out and said that over the next few years they'll have growing influence and pricing power on vaccinations and boosters. It was kind of sketchy but music to the ears of stockholders.

Pfizer (and others) have created what appears to be a great vaccine. I am a little weary about the claims about length of effectiveness and how often boosters are needed, so I look forward to hearing the unbiased studies on that.

Right now these pharma companies with vaccines are basically holding onto a potential game changing cash cow. It's in their best interests that everyone require vaccinations with constant updates. The vaccination part I agree with, but I think there's still a lot to see about how this push for worldwide vaccination goes and how it affects variants popping up, and whether they break vaccine resistance or not.

Basically, there's way too many variables right now for anyone to come out and say you will need this shot every 6 months - 1 year for the next decade. Lets get this spread down, slow down the emergence of new variants, and then we'll see how things need to go moving forward. I think the messaging however will side with the scare of a vaccine resistant variant popping up and to preventatively update vaccinations to avoid the situation that we were just in.

Anyways, a litttle off topic, but one thing I wish wouldn't happen, is people on each side of the vaccinate or not argument bullying the other side into their way of thinking. I've never seen people so divided as they are these days and the "you're either with us or against us" attitude of both sides doesn't help.

Yes, the other side might have a non-sensical opinion, but I wish more people would try and understand and reason with each other instead of calling people idiots and in doing so entrenching everyone into their current train of thought.

Yes, some people can't be reasoned with. But let's stop lumping people into good and bad and instead help others by understanding their apprehensions or non-apprehensions. If you want more people to get vaccinated, don't just tell them they're stupid for not getting one. Try and understand why they feel this way. Maybe they lost their livelihood in this pandemic and feel the gov. hasn't been there for them and they're angry. Maybe they haven't been able to see close family members and see the lockdowns as an overreaction and inconvenience. Perfect, try and sympathize with these issues, and help them understand the facts and the risks of vaccination versus not.

I don't know about you guys, but it is sooooo tiring when everywhere I go on the internet it's people making their pro or anti vaccination case and just getting into name calling fights. Maybe it's a me issue and I just need to shut off the internet for now, but these either black or white no shades of grey characterizations are just exhausting to read. It's to the point where I almost hesitated to post this last thought because it may not be interpreted as 100% on the pro-vaccine side and maybe I'll get attacked for it, but screw it, have at it.

 

[SPF6ty9]

Probably worth getting checked out at a Doctors office/clinic, although they might give you a hard time getting in with the fatigue symptoms. Might have to do a phone call.

I picked up an ear infection from a strip club in 2017, probably was one of the most sick days I’ve ever had. I was a student at the time, and lived on campus, and the walk to the school Dr was the hardest things.

Well this sounds like an interesting story...

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Well this sounds like an interesting story...

They always warned in school that aural sex was not the way to go.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Economies of scale would certainly improve over time. That said, and I wish I could find the exact quote but I don't want to have to dive through entire Pfizer earnings reports; I believe their CEO basically came out and said that over the next few years they'll have growing influence and pricing power on vaccinations and boosters. It was kind of sketchy but music to the ears of stockholders.

Pfizer (and others) have created what appears to be a great vaccine. I am a little weary about the claims about length of effectiveness and how often boosters are needed, so I look forward to hearing the unbiased studies on that.

Right now these pharma companies with vaccines are basically holding onto a potential game changing cash cow. It's in their best interests that everyone require vaccinations with constant updates. The vaccination part I agree with, but I think there's still a lot to see about how this push for worldwide vaccination goes and how it affects variants popping up, and whether they break vaccine resistance or not.

[snipped]

This might be the case for Pfizer but there are dozens of pharmaceutical companies and labs around the world working on vaccines that can be produced at scale, require standard refrigeration, have longer shelf life and are cheap to produce. I've been reading about a really promising vaccine that can be produced in chicken eggs (which is a super super cheap and old fashioned way) to do it.

The fact is, most of the world is not in the G8. Many countries don't have the resources to pay whatever pharma company xyz wants to charge for their doses - especially if this going to be a yearly dose. The companies that have developed vaccines so far have been very lucky because they haven't been required to spend a dime of their own money thanks to government grants and pre-paid vaccines.

There's no way in hell they'll let pharma companies dictate the cost of these doses. I'm thinking this thing goes down to a few bucks per shot and is most likely integrated into current flu shots. There's simply too much competition in this space for the price to remain inflated. This is a right now problem because there's urgency and overwhelming demand.

 

[SPF6ty9]

This might be the case for Pfizer but there are dozens of pharmaceutical companies and labs around the world working on vaccines that can be produced at scale, require standard refrigeration, have longer shelf life and are cheap to produce. I've been reading about a really promising vaccine that can be produced in chicken eggs (which is a super super cheap and old fashioned way) to do it.

The fact is, most of the world is not in the G8. Many countries don't have the resources to pay whatever pharma company xyz wants to charge for their doses - especially if this going to be a yearly dose. The companies that have developed vaccines so far have been very lucky because they haven't been required to spend a dime of their own money thanks to government grants and pre-paid vaccines.

There's no way in hell they'll let pharma companies dictate the cost of these doses. I'm thinking this thing goes down to a few bucks per shot and is most likely integrated into current flu shots. There's simply too much competition in this space for the price to remain inflated. This is a right now problem because there's urgency and overwhelming demand.

Would the new vaccines would be eligible for Emergency Use Authorization? And then if you factor in accounting for potential variants that could escape the vaccines in the future, the current MRNA vaccines basically have been granted the ability to be altered for boosters and bypass the testing phase. This gives them an incredible advantage in getting to market before other potential vaccines.

I guess you're right that dictating the cost and preying on a pandemic would not be tolerated. But these new vaccines were given an unprecedented quick path to mark and a license to utilize this path over and over if necessary. Perhaps they would take advantage of the "if necessary" portion, ie. our old vaccine is 85% effective with the variants around, but this booster is 96% effective, so lets get this booster into everyone ASAP. But this is just me being skeptical and wondering at what point do we draw the line of determining if a vaccine is effective enough + when and who determines the frequency of shots.

Yeah, I think I remember reading the dramatic difference in cost for drugs in North America vs say a 3rd world country. I'm not sure if it's the same drugs or generic alternatives once the patents have expired and essentially become open source, or if the rich countries basically provide the profits to pharma and the poorer countries are supplied at cost, not familiar with the pharma industry enough to know what the specific situation is.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

Yeah, the progress does seem to be happening in Canada...
The places where vaccination has been most successful seem to be those where they've offered it to as many people as possible, Israel and the US come to mind. Here in the Czech Republic it's only just been opened for those 65+ and it's not like they're done with those older - a lot of the highest risk groups are unfortunately also those it's hardest to get the vaccine to logistically. However many months of vaccination and it's still going to be probably the end of June before it will get down to the 40+ age group here. Not to be insensitive or morbid but my ex-wife (who works at an old folks home) recently commented that at her place of work they gave the vaccine to a terminally ill leukemia patient who died the next day... Personally I'm fully content to wait my turn, but a balance does need to be struck.

Yeah in Alberta when the vaccine rollout our health minister warned us not to be alarmed by how many people will die after receiving the vaccine as they are vaccinating the most vulnerable first, people who didn’t have a lot of life left as it was.

I guess we all just need to try and make the best of this bumpy road that is life these days lol

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

They always warned in school that aural sex was not the way to go.

Awesome. Only thing better would be if the OP took that home to complete the setup.