Traded Erik Brännström - D - Part III

[Korpse]

Are they? Being subjective doesn't intrinsically make something worse than not subjective, in fact, subjectivity often improves evaluation. Certainly there's less consistency when you add subjectivity, but I disagree with you that hits for example is worse than plus minus. Hits, describes what it intends to describe quite well, there's not a lot of ambiguity what it means. It's clear looking at the hits stats on a given team who throws more hits, look at Ottawa and you can tell who's throwing hits. it's not clear what Chris Phillip's plus minus compared to Karlssoms in 10-11 meant, or Priessing's +42 vs Redden's +1 in 06-07.

Do hits describe what it intends? I'm honestly not even sure what it intends to describe, there's a lot ambiguity there too. How would Pageau's 161 hit's compare to Phaneuf's 132 in 16-17.

 

[Micklebot]

Do hits describe what it intends? I'm honestly not even sure what it intends to describe, there's a lot ambiguity there too. How would Pageau's 161 hit's compare to Phaneuf's 132 in 16-17.

It describes quantity of hits, not a lot of ambiguity there. Pageau threw more than Phaneuf.

 

[Korpse]

It describes quantity of hits, not a lot of ambiguity there. Pageau threw more than Phaneuf.

If that was the case, you'd be able to tell me what qualifies as a hit.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Plus minus is kind of a fools gold statistic. If there's a massive outlier then I give it more thought, but besides that you cant judge shit rly by plus/minus

I always point back to Tom Preissing and Jeff Schultz are prime examples

NHL All-Time Plus-Minus Leaders

NHL players who hold the all-time record for the best plus-minus in NHL. All-time plus-minus leaders for NHL players.

www.quanthockey.com

Hard to argue with anyone on the first page here ^ or here v

Best Plus-Minus in One NHL Season

NHL players who hold the single season record for the best plus-minus in one NHL season.

www.quanthockey.com

Players pay attention to plus minus over many games I'd much rather lead my team in plusses than minuses.
Getting scored against 5 on 5 is never a good feeling no matter how the goal goes in.

 

[cudi]

NHL All-Time Plus-Minus Leaders

NHL players who hold the all-time record for the best plus-minus in NHL. All-time plus-minus leaders for NHL players.

www.quanthockey.com

Hard to argue with anyone on the first page here ^ or here v

Best Plus-Minus in One NHL Season

NHL players who hold the single season record for the best plus-minus in one NHL season.

www.quanthockey.com

Players pay attention to plus minus over many games I'd much rather lead my team in plusses than minuses.
Getting scored against 5 on 5 is never a good feeling no matter how the goal goes in.

ok. Doesnt change my point. Its not a good stat to base judgement on. Of course players want to be plusses. That isnt breaking news

 

[Micklebot]

If that was the case, you'd be able to tell me what a hit qualifies as a hit.

Yes there is some subjectivity to what qualifies, but its typically applied evenly across a single team. Hit numbers on a given team almost always pass the smell test, the guy with more hits is who you'd expect based on watching the games, it gets muddy comparing team to team as some arenas are more generous to the home team.

Plus minus though just doesn't provide useful info because there are too many systemic confounding factors. It's too poorly designed to provide meaningful insight regardless of being easy to more accurately and consistently apply.

+/- is an objectively bad stat, hits is just poor implementation but still provides more insight than +/-

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

ok. Doesnt change my point. Its not a good stat to base judgement on. Of course players want to be plusses. That isnt breaking news

I guess I must have mentioned that it was.. my bad

 

[Korpse]

Yes there is some subjectivity to what qualifies, but its typically applied evenly across a single team. Hit numbers on a given team almost always pass the smell test, the guy with more hits is who you'd expect based on watching the games, it gets muddy comparing team to team as some arenas are more generous to the home team.

Plus minus though just doesn't provide useful info because there are too many systemic confounding factors. It's too poorly designed to provide meaningful insight regardless of being easy to more accurately and consistently apply.

+/- is an objectively bad stat, hits is just poor implementation but still provides more insight than +/-

I'll concede it can be applied evenly across a team, as long as those players are playing in the exact same games. Having said that whatever you qualify as a hit from Pageau and Phanuef probably aren't the same to the player receiving the hit.

I'm not even arguing +/- is a good stat but it's a stat you can provide context to. I don't know how to apply a 40lbs difference to a hit.

 

[Micklebot]

I'll concede it can be applied evenly across a team, as long as those players are playing in the exact same games. Having said that whatever you qualify as a hit from Pageau and Phanuef probably aren't the same to the player receiving the hit.

I'm not even arguing +/- is a good stat but it's a stat you can provide context too. I don't know how to apply a 40lbs difference to a hit.

Hits are quantitative stats, they don't pretend to tell you anything qualitative. You can look for more context like the size of the guy giving those hits if you want, but overall it's an unambiguous stat, the guy with more hits threw more hits.

+/- just doesn't really tell you much because it's not linked directly to a players actions, it's applied differently depending on the context (es, pk, pp) but doesn't delineate between those contextual differences and requires you to start digging into mounds on context before you can even get a glimpse at what it might mean.

 

[Korpse]

Hits are quantitative stats, they don't pretend to tell you anything qualitative. You can look for more context like the size of the guy giving those hits if you want, but overall it's an unambiguous stat, the guy with more hits threw more hits.

+/- just doesn't really tell you much because it's not linked directly to a players actions, it's applied differently depending on the context (es, pk, pp) but doesn't delineate between those contextual differences and requires you to start digging into mounds on context before you can even get a glimpse at what it might mean.

I disagree but it's unimportant. I'm not supporting the argument of Brannstrom vs Brown just think +/- can be useful when applied in context, which with the existance of sites like naturalstatstrick is easy to find, and find hits as a useless stat.

Brannstrom and Brown are sheltered defensemen who aren't effective together and neither player is effective away from the other.

 

[HSF]

cant believe people want to trade this guy

Chabot goes down and this guy becomes our number 1 option

 

[Micklebot]

cant believe people want to trade this guy

Chabot goes down and this guy becomes our number 1 option

I don't see much point trading him till he builds his value back up, but once Sanderson is in the mix it will be tough for Brannstrom to get his mins.

 

[HSF]

I don't see much point trading him till he builds his value back up, but once Sanderson is in the mix it will be tough for Brannstrom to get his mins.

maybe...maybe not

lets wait and see

as of right now we can't lose him

 

[TheDebater]

Chabot's injury might be just what the doctor ordered for Brannstrom; an opportunity to show he belongs.

For the team, it is a win-win situation, because if he plays well it will soften the blow of losing Chabot for the rest of the season, and at the same time should increase Branny's trade value again if Dorion decides he does not fit in long term here.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

NHL All-Time Plus-Minus Leaders

NHL players who hold the all-time record for the best plus-minus in NHL. All-time plus-minus leaders for NHL players.

www.quanthockey.com

Hard to argue with anyone on the first page here ^ or here v

Best Plus-Minus in One NHL Season

NHL players who hold the single season record for the best plus-minus in one NHL season.

www.quanthockey.com

Players pay attention to plus minus over many games I'd much rather lead my team in plusses than minuses.
Getting scored against 5 on 5 is never a good feeling no matter how the goal goes in.

All those players played on powerhouse teams. And the sample size is decades.

Not sure how this applies to the 2021-22 Ottawa Senators.

Within one season +/- is the absolute worst stat out there.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I get that Brann has his flaws but you have to be blind if you can't see what he does bring to the club.

and to fixate on him as one of the problems is a little weird considering he is still basically a rookie and routinely gets asked to babysit Josh Brown.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I get that Brann has his flaws but you have to be blind if you can't see what he does bring to the club.

and to fixate on him as one of the problems is a little weird considering he is still basically a rookie and routinely gets asked to babysit Josh Brown.

He filled in for Chabot admirably tonight. It's weird that our fanbase wouldn't want a guy who can fill in for our #1 D in case of injury.

He did it successfully last year and is on his way to doing it this year. And he's likely to keep getting better, having played less than 100 games and being a 22 year old. But let's make sure that Zaitsev and J. Bro are regulars.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I see a guy that’s good in transition and the offensive zone, who still gets killed in the D zone.

Not sure how to feel about him yet, but he’s still new to the NHL as a defenceman.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

All those players played on powerhouse teams. And the sample size is decades.

Not sure how this applies to the 2021-22 Ottawa Senators.

Within one season +/- is the absolute worst stat out there.

Everything is connected ... consider this a clue. If you have trouble after a couple of weeks circle back and I will offer further guidance.

 

[Sweatred]

It can be used within teams to compare, plus along with other stats, but I agree across different teams isn’t much use.

you could I say this about every stat….

 

[SlapJack]

I see a guy that’s good in transition and the offensive zone, who still gets killed in the D zone.

Not sure how to feel about him yet, but he’s still new to the NHL as a defenceman.

He's not that bad defensively and makes a lot of good plays back there. Definitely still learning though which is to be expected from a small, young offensive D with barely a full season of experience.

I see a guy who is miles ahead of anyone on the roster right now offensively. Like it's not even close. Can you imagine any of the healthy D with the big club right now trying to accomplish anything offensively? Brannstrom creates offense consistently, everybody else is trying not to make a mistake.

 

[Ice-Tray]

He's not that bad defensively and makes a lot of good plays back there. Definitely still learning though which is to be expected from a small, young offensive D with barely a full season of experience.

I see a guy who is miles ahead of anyone on the roster right now offensively. Like it's not even close. Can you imagine any of the healthy D with the big club right now trying to accomplish anything offensively? Brannstrom creates offense consistently, everybody else is trying not to make a mistake.

I think he often looks great in two zones, and is suspect under pressure in one. I think he definitely has a future but I also think he’s a player that needs the perfect complimentary partner.

 

[OD99]

Perfect dump-ins when he has a forechecker with size right on him is when he struggles. I see same but different from our other D too - they may not get pinned as easy but they will lose a battle or give the puck away because of pressure...fumble tbe puck.

If the opposition player can grab Brann and pin him then he has to really battle to get the puck but he has gotten better at that too. With even a little space he tends to make nice plays.

He hates to use the glass, which I love. He is our best passer in transition and is starting to get more confidence skating the puck out too.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Everything is connected ... consider this a clue. If you have trouble after a couple of weeks circle back and I will offer further guidance.

Huh?

Good players make good teams but even some of the best have years with poor plus minus.

Still has nothing to do with our team this year which is what we were talking about.

If I feel I need guidance on idiotic, irrelevant posting I'll give you a shout.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I see a guy that’s good in transition and the offensive zone, who still gets killed in the D zone.

Not sure how to feel about him yet, but he’s still new to the NHL as a defenceman.

It's clear many people on this forum have not watched other NHL teams. You said it well, does his positives well but his weaknesses are absolutely terrible.

I want everyone to watch Sam Girard last playoffs, was a detriment to his team and you can argue he is Brannstrom's ceiling.

For better or for worse, he is still in his developmental stage, and playing with terrible support far too high up the lineup. He will stay here another off-season but if I get a good offer for him, he's gone.