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Blue Jays Discussion: End of the Hand

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Now that the Jays appear to have fixed their bullpen issues *knock on wood* they just look flat out better then NY. The offence is clearly better and by a good margin. It's shocking we're tied and not ahead of them in the standings.

OPS TOP 12 players Yankees+Blue Jays

  1. Judge .916 < Gurrerro 1.013
  2. Stanton .844 < Springer .920
  3. Gallo .801 < Semien .892
  4. Rizzo .789 < Hernandez .867
  5. Voit .778 < Kirk .866
  6. Sanchez .753 < Bichette .805
  7. LeMahieu .707 < Gurriel Jr. .781
  8. Urshella .697 < Dickerson .736
  9. Gardner .686 < Espinal .732
  10. Wade .684 < Grichcuk .721
  11. Odor .681 < Jansen .714
  12. Torres .670 < McGuire .680
 
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phillipmike said:
If Vladdy was an Angel and Ohtani was a Jay we would all be saying how great Ohtani is he deserves the MVP hands down. And rightfully so.

Vladdy could win the triple crown at 22 and it is extremely likely he doesnt get a single first place vote. Think about that.

I get that you need to compare players against each other THIS YEAR but what Ohtani is doing is something that has NEVER been done before in almost any sport EVER. And something that may not be done again by anyone outside Ohtani which is truly remarkable.

This is the equivalent of being the 2nd best QB in the league and a top 10 defensive player (defensive back or linebacker). Or the 2nd best goalie in the NHL and top 10 in NHL scoring. It is just unheard of.
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I appreciate this analogy. It is like if Auston Matthews was also a top 20 goalie. I would think a player like that would unquestionably be the MVP. The only thing Ohtani isnt doing is coaching.
 
Le Cobra said:
I appreciate this analogy. It is like if Auston Matthews was also a top 20 goalie. I would think a player like that would unquestionably be the MVP. The only thing Ohtani isnt doing is coaching.
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Even better than that. There are around 900 to 1000 pitchers used a season. Last year there were 98 goalies used in the NHL. Ohtani is ranked 43rd in pitching fWAR. You divide that by 10 to match the number of NHL goalies used, that’s the equivalent of the 4th or 5th best goalie in the league.

So that’s like Matthews finishing 2nd in the scoring race and then doing what Marc Andre Fleury did last year. It’s nuts.
 
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phillipmike said:
Even better than that. There are around 900 to 1000 pitchers used a season. Last year there were 98 goalies used in the NHL. Ohtani is ranked 43rd in pitching fWAR. You divide that by 10 to match the number of NHL goalies used, that’s the equivalent of the 4th or 5th best goalie in the league.

So that’s like Matthews finishing 2nd in the scoring race and then doing what Marc Andre Fleury did last year. It’s nuts.
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This is NOT unheard of. Mike Hampton was also an exceptional hitter and pitcher (4.9fWAR pitching and 1.3fWAR hitting in '99) as was Bumgartner (4.9 fWar pitching and 1.2 hitting in 2015 without DHing). They just got reduced at bats because their teams preferred maximizing their pitching value
 


Gotta See It: Jays unload franchise-record 4 home runs against Orioles - Sportsnet.ca

1:49 | September 11, 2021

Watch as the Toronto Blue Jays launch and tie a franchise-record four home runs in the seventh inning in the second game of a doubleheader against the Baltimore Orioles.
 
Pythag standings

HOU 88-53 +2.5
TBR 88-54 +0.5
TOR 86-56 ---
CHW 84-58 -2.0
OAK 78-64 -8.0
BOS 77-67 -10.0
NYY 74-68 -12.0
CLE 68-72 -17.0
DET 66-77 -20.5
SEA 65-77 -21.0

Never forget, the only race we should actually be in right now is a very tight race for 1st.
 
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Last 2yrs, currently age 22 or younger:

Min 50pa

1. Soto 756pa, 169wrc+, 6.4war650
2. Tatis 721pa, 158wrc+, 7.5war650
3. Guerrero 855pa, 153wrc+, 5.0war650
4. Kirk 184pa, 137wrc+, 4.2war650
5. Franco 271pa, 126wrc+, 5.3war650
 
Bjindaho said:
This is NOT unheard of. Mike Hampton was also an exceptional hitter and pitcher (4.9fWAR pitching and 1.3fWAR hitting in '99) as was Bumgartner (4.9 fWar pitching and 1.2 hitting in 2015 without DHing). They just got reduced at bats because their teams preferred maximizing their pitching value
Click to expand...

Yeah it is unheard of. Hampton and MadBum were slightly above average with their batting numbers and they were fluke years as their career wRC+ is well below league average.

Ohtani’s wRC+ is currently 5th in the league and 19th since stepping into the league. Not to mention Ohtani is actually playing a full season as a batter with more than 7 times the PAs as Hampton or MadBum.

If Hampton and MadBum got more at bats, those numbers likely drop as their career numbers indicate.

MadBum:
3.6 fWAR - 19th among pitchers
1.3 fWAR - 189th among batters (78 PAs)
Cumulative fWAR: 4.9 fWAR
114 wRC+ (44 career wRC+)

Hampton:
4.9 fWAR - 9th among pitchers
1.4 fWAR - 172nd among batters (82 PAs)
Cumulative fWAR: 6.3 fWAR
111 wRC+ (67 career wRC+)

Ohtani:
2.7 fWAR - 40th among pitchers
4.7 fWAR - 12th among batters (550 PAs)
Cumulative fWAR: 7.4 fWAR
156 wRC+ (136 career wRC+)

Ohtani still has 20 more games to go.

Career wRC+ and Rank;
Ohtani 136 (19th)
Hampton 67 (1614th)
MadBum 44 (1718th)

So it isn’t even close.
 
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Haha yeah, Bumgarner and Hampton were both really bad hitters overall with a couple good seasons in under 100 PA. They were good hitters for pitchers, but their teams didn't keep them out of the lineup to "maximize their pitching value". They kept them out of the lineup because they were really bad hitters (see the career wRC+ if 67 and 44).

Bumgarner, for example, had a really good four year stretch where he had a wRC+ of 93 in a little under 300 PA. Ohtani has nearly twice as many PA this year alone and a 156 wRC+.

I can't believe someone is actually arguing that what Ohtani is doing is not unheard of because a couple guys had above average numbers in small samples a couple times.
 
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Wow, including the last inning yesterday and first 3 today, the Jays have scored 27 runs in their last 4 innings of work lol. Let that sink in a minute :-)
 
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Jays going into this game;
26.5 fWAR
113 wRC+

After the game:
27.9 fWAR
115 wRC+

Jays rank 2nd in both, only behind Houston in both categories.
 
phillipmike said:
Yeah it is unheard of. Hampton and MadBum were slightly above average with their batting numbers and they were fluke years as their career wRC+ is well below league average.

Ohtani’s wRC+ is currently 5th in the league and 19th since stepping into the league. Not to mention Ohtani is actually playing a full season as a batter with more than 7 times the PAs as Hampton or MadBum.

If Hampton and MadBum got more at bats, those numbers likely drop as their career numbers indicate.

MadBum:
3.6 fWAR - 19th among pitchers
1.3 fWAR - 189th among batters (78 PAs)
Cumulative fWAR: 4.9 fWAR
114 wRC+ (44 career wRC+)

Hampton:
4.9 fWAR - 9th among pitchers
1.4 fWAR - 172nd among batters (82 PAs)
Cumulative fWAR: 6.3 fWAR
111 wRC+ (67 career wRC+)

Ohtani:
2.7 fWAR - 40th among pitchers
4.7 fWAR - 12th among batters (550 PAs)
Cumulative fWAR: 7.4 fWAR
156 wRC+ (136 career wRC+)

Ohtani still has 20 more games to go.

Career wRC+ and Rank;
Ohtani 136 (19th)
Hampton 67 (1614th)
MadBum 44 (1718th)

So it isn’t even close.
Click to expand...

You are double-crediting Ohtani for his hitting (once deservedly for a good year and once for being a good hitter in general). The other two are more impressive because they were out of character.
 
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