Recalled/Assigned: Edvinsson, Berggren & others sent to GR

[jaster]

I liked Biakabatuka from what I saw, I kind of hope he gets a two way deal to play in GR for what it is worth.

The Wings are 4 contracts under the NHL limit, so there's room, although teams do usually like to have 3 or 4 available early in the season. Feels like he's primed for a GR contract, but that's just a guess.

 

[norrisnick]

I liked Biakabatuka from what I saw, I kind of hope he gets a two way deal to play in GR for what it is worth.

Saw a tweet that the Chicago Wolves offered him a deal, but Biakabutuka was waiting to see what we were going to do.

 

[Oddbob]

Why not? We aren't competing this year. Not icing the best players is pretty indicative of that.

Maatta, Edvinsson, Oesterle, and Hagg will all make mistakes playing 18-20minutes a night on the left side. All of them. Which one of them will learn from those mistakes and come out better for it deeper in the season?

What the Wings brass obviously realizes is that sending down Ed protects one of Oesterle and Hagg from waivers. Why they feel that matters is a great mystery to all.

Yzerman didn't sign the players he did, with the hope that we stay the same, it was to try and start pushing towards a playoff spot. Let's say Simon made the Wings, and starts with lets say 11 GP and being -7 for example, and he is behind the pace against the now regular season rosters. That can kill a kids confidence and then they will be told to play safe and that can neuter a more offensive minded blueliner. Happened to Smith and Kindl. When they started they took some chances offensively and then made mistakes like any young defender does, and then fall in the doghouse of the coach and are told to play better in their own end of the ice, and their confidence to take chances disappears, and they just become run of the mill players.

Conversely, he starts in the AHL as it looks like he will, he either plays so well down there and forces his way up to Detroit or more realistically he plays decently but learns to play the NA tighter checking game with lots of minutes in all situations and has a learning rookie season, whether he sees time in the NHL or not. NA is much tighter checking with less space and time to make plays, and there is nothing that will hurt him to learn at a lower level.

There isn't one single player that played AHL or any development league games for TOO LONG that were now a ruined player. That is internet BS!

 

[haulinbass]

This is some silly mental gymnastics you're doing. There's a lot of veterans in the SHL who could easily be AHL/NHL tweeners. And sweden produces a lot more NHL talent than russia. Hopefully with the new transfer agreement less of them will the SHL too early.

The AHL is the most similar to the NHL, this really isn't debatable. There is no league that's more linear to transition from.

I also can't believe anyone could possibly think Edvinsson has nothing to learn in the AHL. You guys really think he would be going there if that's the case? Do you guys think Yzerman is Pejorative Slured or something?

 

[Oddbob]

Saw a tweet that the Chicago Wolves offered him a deal, but Biakabutuka was waiting to see what we were going to do.

GR seems like they have too many D to give him a deal, although I liked him more than Newpower, Barton and a couple others. He seemed like a smart player.

 

[golffuul]

I agree that Edvinsson will ultimately need the NHL to finish his development. He's not going to step in practically a finished product like Seider. But I also think he'll stand to gain some development in the AHL. He still makes a lot of mistakes against AHL-level competition, and that can be worked on in the AHL.

I would have to say that, looking at Oesterle et al, against Toronto in the 2nd game, even when we were playing well in the first period, Oesterle looked the most out of place on the ice. It wasn't until Newpower decided that giving the inside of the ice to a skilled forward seemed like a good idea, did Oesterle have competition for the "Least Competent Defenseman" award, for the night.

 

[MBH]

Have you seen the Wings' blueline? If the choice is giving 18-20min a night on the 2nd pairing to Maatta, Oesterle, and Edvinsson, I'm giving them to Edvinsson. They'll all make the same number of mistakes, but one of them will learn and improve.

Yes.
And again.
1) You don't understand Oesterle's role, and why playing Edvinsson in that role is a terrible idea.
2) Maatta, while slowish and prone to the odd gaffe, was one of those players whose steady, heady play helped the LA Kings get to the playoffs last year despite a ton of injuries on defense.

So you're going to see Chariot, Maatta, and Hagg down the left side.

 

[Oddbob]

Is McIsaac basically a complete lost cause? He only played in one preseason game I saw and had little ice time.

 

[golffuul]

I also feel like Berggren didn't get the chance that Soderblom was given. Berggren just feels like the perfect linemate for Vrana eventually, the guy can pass.

Soderblom just outworked his way onto the team. Berggren still feels a bit too passive in his game. Once he gets back to being more of a driving force, we'll see him in the NHL.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

The biggest issue for me is Berggren, he needs to learn NHL style play, I don’t think he has much to learn from the AHL. And to those saying next year he will get his chance everyone we have right now in the top 9 is on a 2 year contract outside of bertuzzi or larkin who we anticipate are gonna get extensions. There will not be space for him next year in the top 9 either, especially with kasper coming over.

 

[norrisnick]

Yzerman didn't sign the players he did, with the hope that we stay the same, it was to try and start pushing towards a playoff spot. Let's say Simon made the Wings, and starts with lets say 11 GP and being -7 for example, and he is behind the pace against the now regular season rosters. That can kill a kids confidence and then they will be told to play safe and that can neuter a more offensive minded blueliner. Happened to Smith and Kindl. When they started they took some chances offensively and then made mistakes like any young defender does, and then fall in the doghouse of the coach and are told to play better in their own end of the ice, and their confidence to take chances disappears, and they just become run of the mill players.

Conversely, he starts in the AHL as it looks like he will, he either plays so well down there and forces his way up to Detroit or more realistically he plays decently but learns to play the NA tighter checking game with lots of minutes in all situations and has a learning rookie season, whether he sees time in the NHL or not. NA is much tighter checking with less space and time to make plays, and there is nothing that will hurt him to learn at a lower level.

There isn't one single player that played AHL or any development league games for TOO LONG that were now a ruined player. That is internet BS!

Pushing towards a playoff spot and competing are two very different things. The team as a whole is learning. Having another player learning right along isn't going to hurt anything.

Let's say Simon made the Wings starts out 11GP a bit up... a bit down... but gets his legs under him and excels. Legitimately takes the #3 spot and is solid by the holidays. Still some hiccups now and then, but that's every player, young or old.

Are we not better off for it? It certainly makes the Wings a better team than running what we have out there every shift that Mo isn't on.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

You're going to see Chariot, Maatta, and Hagg down the left side.

That sounds horrible. The very opposite of puck possession.

 

[norrisnick]

The AHL is the most similar to the NHL, this really isn't debatable. There is no league that's more linear to transition from.

I also can't believe anyone could possibly think Edvinsson has nothing to learn in the AHL. You guys really think he would be going there if that's the case? Do you guys think Yzerman is Pejorative Slured or something?

There is nothing Edvinsson can learn in the AHL that he can't learn in the NHL or hasn't already learned in the SHL.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

I think Edvinsson will learn in the AHL playing big minutes. But what I'd like to know is what Sebrango is going to learn playing on the 3rd pair down there. And Viro. And McIsaac...

 

[norrisnick]

Yes.
And again.
1) You don't understand Oesterle's role, and why playing Edvinsson in that role is a terrible idea.
2) Maatta, while slowish and prone to the odd gaffe, was one of those players whose steady, heady play helped the LA Kings get to the playoffs last year despite a ton of injuries on defense.

So you're going to see Chariot, Maatta, and Hagg down the left side.

There is nothing stopping us from putting Maatta in the Oesterle/Hagg hole and Edvinsson on the 2nd pairing. Besides some misguided belief that losing one of Oesterle/Hagg would cripple the team (if they even were claimed which is doubtful).

 

[Oddbob]

Pushing towards a playoff spot and competing are two very different things. The team as a whole is learning. Having another player learning right along isn't going to hurt anything.

Let's say Simon made the Wings starts out 11GP a bit up... a bit down... but gets his legs under him and excels. Legitimately takes the #3 spot and is solid by the holidays. Still some hiccups now and then, but that's every player, young or old.

Are we not better off for it? It certainly makes the Wings a better team than running what we have out there every shift that Mo isn't on.

Starting in the AHL wouldn't hinder him from being good in the NHL though. Let's say he plays 10 games in the AHL and is doing awesome, that would only give him more confidence coming back up to the NHL, not lessen his confidence or play. Also, might even give him a chip on his shoulder to prove he is NHL ready. Many great NHL players started in the AHL and it didn't hinder a single one of them. Lalonde and Detroit are wanting to shore up the defensive game, so starting with more safe players is probably a goal of theirs and Edvinsson was good not great in the preseason. One thing you get from the NHL vets even if they have less skill is the coach knows what he is getting every night for better or worse, where as rookies are all over the map at times, being good and bad most of the time.

 

[norrisnick]

Soderblom just outworked his way onto the team. Berggren still feels a bit too passive in his game. Once he gets back to being more of a driving force, we'll see him in the NHL.

That's just not going to happen because that's not the type of player that Berggren is. Put either of them on a scoring line and Berggren will get more points. Soderblom has the ability to create offensve through sheer force of size. Berggren works like a catalyst with other skilled players. Think Hudler.

 

[MBH]

That sounds horrible.

It's serviceable.
It's probably better than it would be with Edvisson though.

All of the LD are in development.
Edvinsson. Wallinder. Johansson. Viro. McIsaac. Buiium. Sebrango. At least two fo them will be on this team by the end of 2023-24.
Maatta has a 1 year deal.
Hagg has a one year deal.

 

[Oddbob]

That's just not going to happen because that's not the type of player that Berggren is. Put either of them on a scoring line and Berggren will get more points. Soderblom has the ability to create offensve through sheer force of size. Berggren works like a catalyst with other skilled players. Think Hudler.

That is true, but where does Berggren really fit in a scoring role? There is no room in the top 6 and he isn't a bottom 6 guy. Even Elmer is going to likely be playing 4th line, and just skill guys like Berggren never do well in those roles. Berggren is going to be one of those guys that either forces his way into a top 6 NHL role or being an AHL guy or Euro player in a scoring role. Elmer does other things that Jonatan can't or doesn't.

 

[norrisnick]

Starting in the AHL wouldn't hinder him from being good in the NHL though. Let's say he plays 10 games in the AHL and is doing awesome, that would only give him more confidence coming back up to the NHL, not lessen his confidence or play. Also, might even give him a chip on his shoulder to prove he is NHL ready. Many great NHL players started in the AHL and it didn't hinder a single one of them. Lalonde and Detroit are wanting to shore up the defensive game, so starting with more safe players is probably a goal of theirs and Edvinsson was good not great in the preseason. One thing you get from the NHL vets even if they have less skill is the coach knows what he is getting every night for better or worse, where as rookies are all over the map at times, being good and bad most of the time.

Those 10 AHL games won't change anything though. That's the point. He will still need to adjust to the NHL once he comes up. That part will never change and pretending that time spent in the AHL will change that is silly. The pace of the AHL and the pace of the NHL are two wholly different things. And if he will always have an adjustment period to the NHL... why delay it?

He knows how to defend. He knows how to maintain a gap. He knows when and when not to pinch. He's played two years against men already. All of that. But he's done it in a slow league. Putting him right back in a slow league so he'll get better at playing in a fast league... do you see the issue here?

 

[MBH]

There is nothing stopping us from putting Maatta in the Oesterle/Hagg hole and Edvinsson on the 2nd pairing. Besides some misguided belief that losing one of Oesterle/Hagg would cripple the team (if they even were claimed which is doubtful).

Well yah. Edvinsson isn't as good as Maatta yet.
Or Hagg.

The Red Wings want to set him up for success.
Not even Seider-level success.
They want him just to be ready to not get burned.
So give the kid a break.

Seider at the same age was so much more ready. Edvinsson looks like a kid still growing into his body.

 

[haulinbass]

There is nothing Edvinsson can learn in the AHL that he can't learn in the NHL or hasn't already learned in the SHL.

Yeah he sure could learn the same things in the NHL. But he can also learn those same things in the AHL WITHOUT potentially costing the Wings a chance at chasing a playoff spot. This is a NHL team not a development team. This isn't last season where the only focus is getting high draft picks and development. This is a solid hockey team. This is a team that even if they have doubts about making a playoff spot, that they are trying to change the environment and player accountability in the right direction. If all fails on the winning ratio they at minimum want to put together a respectable performance on the ice, playing strong defense and minimizing stupid mistakes
That alone is a major part of a rebuild. We have the roster to start that process now. Hopefully we are successful with that process by the time more key players like hopefully Kasper join this team and can really start pushing.

 

[norrisnick]

That is true, but where does Berggren really fit in a scoring role? There is no room in the top 6 and he isn't a bottom 6 guy. Even Elmer is going to likely be playing 4th line, and just skill guys like Berggren never do well in those roles. Berggren is going to be one of those guys that either forces his way into a top 6 NHL role or being an AHL guy or Euro player in a scoring role. Elmer does other things that Jonatan can't or doesn't.

I get that. Which is why if there happens to be a top 6 winger injury and we call up Berggren, the literal worst thing to do would be to bump Elmer up and have Berggren slot into Elmer's spot. Just let Berggren fill the Raymond/Vrana/Perron, whoever spot as he has a hope in hell of being successful there, but not on the 4th line.

Well yah. Edvinsson isn't as good as Maatta yet.
Or Hagg.

The Red Wings want to set him up for success.
Not even Seider-level success.
They want him just to be ready to not get burned.
So give the kid a break.

Seider at the same age was so much more ready. Edvinsson looks like a kid still growing into his body.

X to doubt.

 

[norrisnick]

Yeah he sure could learn the same things in the NHL. But he can also learn those same things in the AHL WITHOUT potentially costing the Wings a chance at chasing a playoff spot. This is a NHL team not a development team. This isn't last season where the only focus is getting high draft picks and development. This is a solid hockey team. This is a team that even if they have doubts about making a playoff spot, that they are trying to change the environment and player accountability in the right direction. If all fails on the winning ratio they at minimum want to put together a respectable performance on the ice, playing strong defense and minimizing stupid mistakes
That alone is a major part of a rebuild. We have the roster to start that process now. Hopefully we are successful with that process by the time more key players like hopefully Kasper join this team and can really start pushing.

Why is it ok for Maatta, Hagg, or Oesterle's mistakes to cost Wings a chance for a hint of a sniff of a playoff spot but the end of the world for Edvinsson's?

 

[jaster]

I would have to say that, looking at Oesterle et al, against Toronto in the 2nd game, even when we were playing well in the first period, Oesterle looked the most out of place on the ice. It wasn't until Newpower decided that giving the inside of the ice to a skilled forward seemed like a good idea, did Oesterle have competition for the "Least Competent Defenseman" award, for the night.

And even then, Oesterle was the other defenseman on that play and just watched it all happen, never stepped up to help lol.