Confirmed Signing with Link: [EDM] Darnell Nurse signs extension with the Oilers (8 years, $9.25M AAV) PART II

ManofSteel55

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So, you're right and everyone else is wrong? That is HF in a nutshell
For the record, it is pretty common to have one group think their view is right, another group to believe a different view is right, and both to believe that the others view is wrong. That's called having different opinions.

You're right though, it is pretty telling when a bunch of people who watch a player are saying one thing about a player, which is backed up by most analysts and experts who actually watch the games, and a bunch of stat watchers who read some charts but almost certainly haven't done a full deep dive on all angles of analytics are saying the opposite but still think they are the ones who are right about a player.
 
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GOilers88

#FreeMoustacheRides
Dec 24, 2016
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This contract is ludicrous, Nurse is not even near elite

5yrs @ 6.75m aav would've been the right contract
And I'm sure he says no to that deal because he'd likely have gotten more from almost every team in the league.

I'm not saying he isn't overpaid, but I just don't see any scenario where him walking next year or being traded this year doesn't massively hurt the Oilers more than his overpay does. Which number one guys do we think Edmonton realistically has a shot at getting long term to fill the hole Nurse would leave? Or we're looking for two #2/3 guys instead of a #1. Either way that's a massively tall ask from a team that has very limited success in big game hunting.
 

therealkoho

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Playing 25 minutes in the playoffs where they got swept shows more the incompetence of Edmonton's d-core than it does make Nurse look elite. End of the day Nurse is a defensive liability, hes good offensively and can hit hard, but is horrible in his own end. Basically a better Ristolainen

This
 

Three On Zero

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Playing 25 minutes in the playoffs where they got swept shows more the incompetence of Edmonton's d-core than it does make Nurse look elite. End of the day Nurse is a defensive liability, hes good offensively and can hit hard, but is horrible in his own end. Basically a better Ristolainen
This 100%
 

GOilers88

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This 100%
Nurse was top 5 for NHL D in:

ES Goals (1st)
Goals (2nd)
ES Points (4th)
+/- (5th)
PIM (4th)
SOG (4th)
TOI/GP (4th)
TOI Total (3rd)
ES TOI (1st)
ES TOI/GP (2nd)
TOI/Shift (2nd)

Nurse was top 20 for NHL D in:

Hits (15th)
Blocked Shots (18th)
Takeaways (20th)
Major Penalties (12th)
Points (14th)


That is pretty damn impressive.
I feel like that's more than just being a bit better than Ristolainen. I agree he's overpaid but I think he's also being talked down far more than he deserves here just because of his contract. He's a good defenseman and people saying he isn't aren't even trying to have an honest conversation. You can be a real good player and still be overpaid.
 
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TheNumber4

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Playing 25 minutes in the playoffs where they got swept shows more the incompetence of Edmonton's d-core than it does make Nurse look elite. End of the day Nurse is a defensive liability, hes good offensively and can hit hard, but is horrible in his own end. Basically a better Ristolainen
Lol. You don’t watch Nurse. Stop pretending as if you do.
1. He’s not a defensive liability. He’s solid defensively, has been for a while now.
2. He doesn’t hit hard. Tough and will fight though.
 

Three On Zero

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I feel like that's more than just being a bit better than Ristolainen. I agree he's overpaid but I think he's also being talked down far more than he deserves here just because of his contract. He's a good defenseman and people saying he isn't aren't even trying to have an honest conversation. You can be a real good player and still be overpaid.
Or people aren't using stats from an outlier anomaly where he only played against 1/4 of the league in what's known as a very poor division. One of these years is not like the others

upload_2021-8-23_10-17-8.png
 
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ManofSteel55

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Why do you have to play at a high level? How many coaches were AHL players? How many GMs played at the NHL level? How did Gretzky's coaching career go? Evaluating talent and playing the game are two completely different things. You sound like Kevin Lowe I have 4 rings I must be a great GM.
Those who played at a high level are far better at evaluating talent for the most part, because those of us who didn't don't even know what we're looking for. You can watch a lot of hockey and still not know how to look for the small things that make the difference for players - and most people who watch a lot of hockey fall into that.

Among current NHL head coaches, I believe 5 never played AHL level, but 3 of those played university level hockey. According to Wikipedia, there are only two without playing hockey at a high level - Andre Tourigny from Ottawa (he didn't have anything other than coaching career listed), and Jon Cooper for Tampa Bay, but even he had high school hockey experience and played university level lacrosse, so he was a pretty high level athlete as well.

Meeting your "AHL or higher" standards, 11 didn't make the cut, BUT, one of those played ECHL with a cup of coffee in the AHL (Treliving), one played junior hockey and was a junior hockey team owner for years (McKrimmon), two played University level hockey, and one grew up with one of the greatest hockey minds ever as his dad (Bowman), so none of those are comparable to the common hockey fan analyst. That leaves us with six, two have backgrounds in law, and one moved through the ranks as a scout, so I don't think those are comparable either.

Gretzky having a poor coaching career isn't relevant here. One former player being a bad coach doesn't in any way mean that having high level playing experience isn't important for coaches, it means that some players aren't built to be coaches.

Evaluating the talent and playing the game are different, but not completely different. There is a reason that most scouts, coaches and managers in pro sports are former players. Not only do they understand more about the game, they have lived it. That's why most experts are former players, and not stats guys who can break down numbers.

As per the Lowe thing, it isn't relatable here either. He was saying that he knows about winning (and in one sense, he obviously does, even if he was wrong in that his playing career success automatically made him a good manager). That doesn't mean that saying that most players and former players know better than fans is incorrect. If fans knew better, we wouldn't see fans wrong so much of the time. Even smart fans like those on HF.
 

TheNumber4

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Upgrade on forward. Downgrade on D. Rolling the dice on a 40 year old Smith.
Whether that’s an overall upgrade is certainly debatable. I know fans of all teams have a tendency to prefer new toys to the old ones but we will have to wait and see.
Upgrade on D overall. Don’t pretend to know the ins and outs of the Oilers.
 
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hotcabbagesoup

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Playing 25 minutes in the playoffs where they got swept shows more the incompetence of Edmonton's d-core than it does make Nurse look elite. End of the day Nurse is a defensive liability, hes good offensively and can hit hard, but is horrible in his own end. Basically a better Ristolainen

so-true-legit.gif
 

therealkoho

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And I'm sure he says no to that deal because he'd likely have gotten more from almost every team in the league.

I'm not saying he isn't overpaid, but I just don't see any scenario where him walking next year or being traded this year doesn't massively hurt the Oilers more than his overpay does. Which number one guys do we think Edmonton realistically has a shot at getting long term to fill the hole Nurse would leave? Or we're looking for two #2/3 guys instead of a #1. Either way that's a massively tall ask from a team that has very limited success in big game hunting.

what a players actually worth and what he gets paid is an entirely different thing

I like the player, but he's only an average Dman in his own end, not that I have all kinds of viewing experience of the Oiler, but I've seen enough to know that he makes as many bad plays as he does good in his own end. He makes a very good first pass hard, accurate, but on the Oilers the choices are McD first and Draisatl second so it's hard to make a mistake. His offensive numbers are good finishing 12th among Dmen last year, but how can the numbers not be playing with the offensive minded Oilers(see McJeebuzz) plus having that garish(for a Dman) 10.6% shooting percentage.

McDavid w/o Nurse: 54.6% SCF*, 51.9% GF, 9.6% Sh%, 88.2% Sv%, 58.5% Off. FO

Nurse w/o McDavid: 44.8% SCF, 50.0% GF, 8.8% Sh%, 93.3% Sv%, 40.1% Off. FO

Together: 56.0% SCF, 58.8% GF, 11.7% Sh%, 90.1% Sv%, 64.1% Off. FO


I understand that the Oilers needed to keep him and that there is a chance he might perform up to the value of the contract, but he hasn't done enough consistently IMHO to get that term coupled with that kind of money. I would be the most surprised guy in the room if he ever hit the .55PPG again let alone the .64PPG he hit last year and only because he's never been considered elite offensively. He has good hockey sense, he's got some nasty, he has above average wheels, but 8 year contracts normally lead to heart break, especially for Dmen who play with a physical edge, unless you're Chara who is a freak of nature.
 
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coopooter

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Playing 25 minutes in the playoffs where they got swept shows more the incompetence of Edmonton's d-core than it does make Nurse look elite. End of the day Nurse is a defensive liability, hes good offensively and can hit hard, but is horrible in his own end. Basically a better Ristolainen
They scored 1 goal in first two games and found themselves chasing the series.
He’s a bit overpayed but definitely not two threads worth
 

coopooter

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Sep 28, 2017
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what a players actually worth and what he gets paid is an entirely different thing

I like the player, but he's only an average Dman in his own end, not that I have all kinds of viewing experience of the Oiler, but I've seen enough to know that he makes as many bad plays as he does good in his own end. He makes a very good first pass hard, accurate, but on the Oilers the choices are McD first and Draisatl second so it's hard to make a mistake. His offensive numbers are good finishing 12th among Dmen last year, but how can the numbers not be playing with the offensive minded Oilers(see McJeebuzz) plus having that garish(for a Dman) 10.6% shooting percentage.

McDavid w/o Nurse: 54.6% SCF*, 51.9% GF, 9.6% Sh%, 88.2% Sv%, 58.5% Off. FO

Nurse w/o McDavid: 44.8% SCF, 50.0% GF, 8.8% Sh%, 93.3% Sv%, 40.1% Off. FO

Together: 56.0% SCF, 58.8% GF, 11.7% Sh%, 90.1% Sv%, 64.1% Off. FO


I understand that the Oilers needed to keep him and that there is a chance he might perform up to the value of the contract, but he hasn't done enough consistently IMHO to get that term coupled with that kind of money. I would be the most surprised guy in the room if he ever hit the .55PPG again let alone the .64PPG he hit last year and only because he's never been considered elite offensively. He has good hockey sense, he's got some nasty, he has above average wheels, but 8 year contracts normally lead to heart break, especially for Dmen who play with a physical edge, unless your Chara who is a freak of nature.
I love these threads.
“Oilers suck and are wasting Mcdavids prime by surrounding him with scrubs”
Oilers sign one of a few good players
“This guy sucks, see look at these numbers with scrubs”
 
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ManofSteel55

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what a players actually worth and what he gets paid is an entirely different thing

I like the player, but he's only an average Dman in his own end, not that I have all kinds of viewing experience of the Oiler, but I've seen enough to know that he makes as many bad plays as he does good in his own end. He makes a very good first pass hard, accurate, but on the Oilers the choices are McD first and Draisatl second so it's hard to make a mistake. His offensive numbers are good finishing 12th among Dmen last year, but how can the numbers not be playing with the offensive minded Oilers(see McJeebuzz) plus having that garish(for a Dman) 10.6% shooting percentage.

McDavid w/o Nurse: 54.6% SCF*, 51.9% GF, 9.6% Sh%, 88.2% Sv%, 58.5% Off. FO

Nurse w/o McDavid: 44.8% SCF, 50.0% GF, 8.8% Sh%, 93.3% Sv%, 40.1% Off. FO

Together: 56.0% SCF, 58.8% GF, 11.7% Sh%, 90.1% Sv%, 64.1% Off. FO


I understand that the Oilers needed to keep him and that there is a chance he might perform up to the value of the contract, but he hasn't done enough consistently IMHO to get that term coupled with that kind of money. I would be the most surprised guy in the room if he ever hit the .55PPG again let alone the .64PPG he hit last year and only because he's never been considered elite offensively. He has good hockey sense, he's got some nasty, he has above average wheels, but 8 year contracts normally lead to heart break, especially for Dmen who play with a physical edge, unless your Chara who is a freak of nature.
These stats keep being brought out, but the context being left out is telling.

Nurse's partner for most of last year was Barrie, but let's look at the difference in forwards.

Nurse with McDavid was mostly Nurse with McDavid, Pulujarvi, and either Draisaitl, or whoever got the LW slot with McDavid that week.

Nurse without McDavid would have included Jujhar Khaira (great PK'er, awful 5 on 5), Gaetan Haas (fast, but doesn't help any NHL caliber team) or Kyle Turris (taxi squad by the end of the year, will hit waivers early this camp) as the centre, and a mix of the following players on the wing - Josh Archibald (+), Zack Kassian (-), Alex Chaisson (-), James Neal (-), Joakim Nygard (-), Tyler Ennis (-), Dominik Kahun (-)...so not NHL caliber players for the most part. Give it some context if you are going to try to use those kind of stats. All it really shows is that McDavid and Nurse have amazing chemistry, and the Oilers had no depth, which we already knew.
 

CupofOil

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Playing 25 minutes in the playoffs where they got swept shows more the incompetence of Edmonton's d-core than it does make Nurse look elite. End of the day Nurse is a defensive liability, hes good offensively and can hit hard, but is horrible in his own end. Basically a better Ristolainen

Total BS but so are the ten million other ignorant posts in this thread.

Yes, Nurse is overpaid by about 1m or so (you nuts saying $6-7m for him after seeing what the Dman market is this offseason are out of your mind) and, yes, he has some defensive defencies but HORRIBLE defenseively? A better Ristolainen? Get the f*** out of here.
This thread just cements how toxic the main boards have become.
 

ManofSteel55

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Nurse - Barrie - same
Keith >>>>>> Caleb Jones
Ceci << Larsson
3LD = same (Russell, Lagesson, Koekoek)
3RD Bouchard > Bear - not sure how many > to put here, but Bear struggled really hard last year.

The parts of the core are better this year. It will depend on if we have the right guys for the right roles.
 

GOilers88

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Dec 24, 2016
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Nurse is a product of McDavid, just like Mike Smith.
Everyone is a product of McDavid and should be leaving money on the table for the privilege of having him pad their careers.

Yep. I was thinking somewhere around 5x6 as well. All of this in a "mostly" flat cap world...

Worst contract of this off-season.
Don't think there's a chance in hell Nurse would get less than 7 from anyone. But I'd love to see some teams low-ball the shit out of their best players and see how that goes.
 

Bank Shot

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Don't think there's a chance in hell Nurse would get less than 7 from anyone. But I'd love to see some teams low-ball the shit out of their best players and see how that goes.

They win the Vezina and go to Seattle and then the GM has to trade a first, a plus prospect and a pick for an injury prone replacement with one year left on their contract.

That's how that goes.
 
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