Post-Game Talk: ECQF 3 (Flyers lead series 2-1): FLYERS 1 vs. Canadiens 0, Sunday, Aug. 16, 2020

[deadhead]

Which is funny since Thompson made a half dozen mistakes that any NHLer could execute easily.

Being afraid to trust rookies is what loser franchises do.

Rookies are not all equal, there's a huge difference between NAK at 23 with three seasons of AHL play under his belt and Frost and Farabee. This is why the Pens marinate their depth players, the rookies who took them to the Cup were mostly 22-24, the same with Cooper's TB teams.

Sure, if you have a uber-rookie like Barzal or Kucherov, they can play at 20, but that's rare.
A few exceptions doesn't mean most rookies can hack it.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

They're already renaming the alphanumeric symbols for genes because of spreadsheets. We need to stop letting the nerds tell us what to do.

You really shouldn't speak of yourself in the third person.

 

[Starat327]

Rookies are not all equal, there's a huge difference between NAK at 23 with three seasons of AHL play under his belt and Frost and Farabee. This is why the Pens marinate their depth players, the rookies who took them to the Cup were mostly 22-24, the same with Cooper's TB teams.

Sure, if you have a uber-rookie like Barzal or Kucherov, they can play at 20, but that's rare.
A few exceptions doesn't mean most rookies can hack it.

The same can be said for aging vets, if we're being honest. Hockey isnt a "were gonna roll this team and see what happens" kinda sport. The benefit of a 7 game series is you get to make adjustments. for 3 games now, we've watched Montreal skate circles around the entire team basically -- you cant hit what you cant catch. If AV continues to be stubborn and not try to counter MTLs speed with some of his own, were in for a disappointing series. Hart cant stand on his head every night for us.

 

[Rebels57]

The same can be said for aging vets, if we're being honest. Hockey isnt a "were gonna roll this team and see what happens" kinda sport. The benefit of a 7 game series is you get to make adjustments. for 3 games now, we've watched Montreal skate circles around the entire team basically -- you cant hit what you cant catch. If AV continues to be stubborn and not try to counter MTLs speed with some of his own, were in for a disappointing series. Hart cant stand on his head every night for us.

AV is resorting to typical conservative scared coaching tactics.

He has coached this series almost EXACTLY like Hakstol would have. Nate Thompson the 2C at 5v5 is as f***ing Hakstol as it gets. Benching Farabee & Ghost is as Hakstol as it gets. The only notable difference is that we didn't Hakshell in the 3rd of Game 1 or 3.

 

[deadhead]

And that's why I say timing is everything, I think is this was next June (when I expect playoffs to start), AV would feel far more comfortable playing Frost, Farabee, Bunnaman over Grant and Thompson.

Right now, every decision is a bad one unless we luck out.

And it's not like there were viable options to Grant and Thompson at the TDL, Marleau cost a 3rd and looked even worse, Cousins was the other option and Flyers know he's not a good fit. The two centers who could have helped, Pageau and Coleman, cost an arm and a leg.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

I want to be positive, and it's not about style points in elimination games. But the Flyers game plan was to basically make the game as low event as humanly possible -- although Scott Laughton didn't get the memo -- and grind their way from an early 1 goal lead. Rely on the Couturier line, one defense pair (Sanheim-Myers), and goaltending. Against the 12th place team in the East. That's a strategy a team does because they LACK the talent advantage, not because they're the 1st seed.

Canadiens were a hair and a post off today. The Flyers did everything in their power, at evens and special teams, to not run away with the game. They probably beat the Canadiens this series, as they should. But these just aren't inspiring wins for a team that wants to go deeper. There's enough in this tape to not take this win for granted, but I smell a whiff of confirmation bias coming from tomorrow's coaching meeting.

If the Flyers are having troubles against a mediocre team like the Canadiens, it may well get unpleasant when (if) they face stiffer, elite competition like Tampa or Colorado.

 

[Starat327]

And that's why I say timing is everything, I think is this was next June (when I expect playoffs to start), AV would feel far more comfortable playing Frost, Farabee, Bunnaman over Grant and Thompson.

Right now, every decision is a bad one unless we luck out.

And it's not like there were viable options to Grant and Thompson at the TDL, Marleau cost a 3rd and looked even worse, Cousins was the other option and Flyers know he's not a good fit. The two centers who could have helped, Pageau and Coleman, cost an arm and a leg.

No, not every decision is a bad one. We have bad decisions (Grant Thompson) and unknown decisions (Bunnaman, Frost, et all). Youre basing this entirely off of "theyre rookies, they cant handle the playoffs" when other teams seem to be perfectly fine with young players - particularly, the team were playing against. Whats wrong with putting Frost or Bunny in for the game 5 lineup, where you can dictate your matchups?

As far as the deadline goes - we didnt NEED to make anything. Maybe, just maybe, we work through Bunnaman and/or Frost int he roster down the stretch, so we can build that comfort level.

 

[deadhead]

If the Flyers are having troubles against a mediocre team like the Canadiens, it may well get unpleasant when (if) they face stiffer, elite competition like Tampa or Colorado.

Matchups are often not a matter of talent, but how different styles match up.
And we have the goalie edge against most teams, which is big in the playoffs.

 

[Rebels57]

And that's why I say timing is everything, I think is this was next June (when I expect playoffs to start), AV would feel far more comfortable playing Frost, Farabee, Bunnaman over Grant and Thompson.

Right now, every decision is a bad one unless we luck out.

And it's not like there were viable options to Grant and Thompson at the TDL, Marleau cost a 3rd and looked even worse, Cousins was the other option and Flyers know he's not a good fit. The two centers who could have helped, Pageau and Coleman, cost an arm and a leg.

He could just stop being a coward and get comfortable now.

As for the TDL, they never needed to add 2 centers. They were rolling along just fine without them. Fletch "fixed a problem" that didn't exist. It didn't make sense that day and afterwards everyone just assumed Nate would the be 13th forward, rather than the 2C at 5v5.

 

[deadhead]

No, not every decision is a bad one. We have bad decisions (Grant Thompson) and unknown decisions (Bunnaman, Frost, et all). Youre basing this entirely off of "theyre rookies, they cant handle the playoffs" when other teams seem to be perfectly fine with young players - particularly, the team were playing against. Whats wrong with putting Frost or Bunny in for the game 5 lineup, where you can dictate your matchups?

As far as the deadline goes - we didnt NEED to make anything. Maybe, just maybe, we work through Bunnaman and/or Frost int he roster down the stretch, so we can build that comfort level.

I don't think they look at Grant and Thompson if AV had confidence in Bunnaman and Frost, especially Bunnaman, who was playing through the season ending hot streak (Frost was sent down before the streak began).

It's not that they're rookies, it's that they're "flawed" rookies, Frost's style is best suited to a top 6 offensive role, Farabee is the better player but inconsistent, and his lack of size is a real detriment because he wants to play a "heavy" game - but he isn't physically ready for that role right now. Bunnaman has size, speed and attitude, but he plays "scared to make a mistake" and his offensive skill package is probably a couple years away. But he at least would be a good 4th line fit.

We saw this with Patrick and Lindblom in 2017-18, both of whom struggled.
Lindblom since then added a lot of strength (before his cancer he was lb for lb one of the strongest players in the NHL) and he'd probably be one of our best players in this series (b/c he wins the majority of his board battles).

 

[Adtar02]

I thought the team adjusted well to counter Montréal from game two. I would like to see more controlled entries but that’s hard when they clog the neutral zone and allow price to be an active passer in the break out.

We need to improve our neutral zone and counter better. And keep wearing them down. We definitely were more physical this game from the start. Didn’t let them get their game going.

It was a boring game of sorts. And some what of a nail biter but we controlled the game pretty well. Biggest sign of that was all the penalties they took. And they let a lot slide two. Which also pointed out a big problem for us. PP. whether it’s entries or just standing around waiting for Giroux to pass, they had a great ga,e plan against our pp. hopefully the coaches adjust to counter that as well. Frankly I would start our second unit against Weber. He seems to be the biggest problem for our top line.

 

[flyersnorth]

Which is funny since Thompson made a half dozen mistakes that any NHLer could execute easily.

Being afraid to trust rookies is what loser franchises do.

St Louis had 7 guys under 25 on their Cup run.

Washington had 5 guys under 25 for theirs.

Flyers have 9 guys under 25 (8 if you remove Bunny's 2 games).

That's essentially half our roster.

 

[DancingPanther]

I called out Charlie O Connor n the comments section on his praise of the 4th line, here is what he has to say:

Final xG For by trio, per Natural Stat Trick:

1st: 90.88%
2nd: 63.16%
3rd: 28.70%
4th: 55.69%

They did their job in this one, which was to allow next to nothing of serious value to the Canadiens.

Is Thompson ideally out of the lineup? Yeah. In this series, offense has largely died on his stick. But I don't think the Flyers were significantly more likely to score with Connor Bunnaman in at 4C, and I suspect Thompson was far better prepared to play this kind of white-knuckle, make-one-mistake-and-you're-toast type of game than a rookie would be. Maybe you consider moving Raffl back to center at some point, but you're not gonna do that in the first game a guy is back from injury when it's not his natural position. And don't even mention Morgan Frost right now. I really like the kid, but considering his strengths and weaknesses, you really think he was going to thrive in THIS kind of playoff game for his first taste of postseason action? Come on. It's not like Frost's presence on Line 3 was going to magically change the entire complexion of this contest.

Isn't it amazing how the trio skated to 55.69% despite Thompson's individual 43% SVA (Charlie didn't use SVA which is pretty expected)

 

[Curufinwe]

He played 2 games and was great in 1 of them (scored the GWG) and the entire team sucked in the other.

G-C-V
Farabee-Hayes-Konecny
JVR-Laughton-NAK
Raffl-Grant-Pitlick

 

[Starat327]

I don't think they look at Grant and Thompson if AV had confidence in Bunnaman and Frost, especially Bunnaman, who was playing through the season ending hot streak (Frost was sent down before the streak began).

It's not that they're rookies, it's that they're "flawed" rookies, Frost's style is best suited to a top 6 offensive role, Farabee is the better player but inconsistent, and his lack of size is a real detriment because he wants to play a "heavy" game - but he isn't physically ready for that role right now. Bunnaman has size, speed and attitude, but he plays "scared to make a mistake" and his offensive skill package is probably a couple years away. But he at least would be a good 4th line fit.

We saw this with Patrick and Lindblom in 2017-18, both of whom struggled.
Lindblom since then added a lot of strength (before his cancer he was lb for lb one of the strongest players in the NHL) and he'd probably be one of our best players in this series (b/c he wins the majority of his board battles).

I'm not disagreeing that AV doesnt have confidence in them. The disagreement is that he is accepting that he's sending bad players out on the ice instead of moving on from his stubbornness. There's no rational reason that you can look at games 1-3, and say "Thompson played well enough to not take a chance", because he hasnt. AV's stubbornnes may cost us this series. I dont need Frost or Bunny to be offensive players. I need for them to keep up with Montreal's speedy forwards, instead of getting dusted in the neutral zone like Grant and Thompson are.

 

[Bigkarl]

It's sort of ironic that we are scared to play our 21 year old center because he's too young/inexperienced/light/etc., and instead play Nasty Nate because he is a veteran/heavy/experience/reliable , who is getting dominated by Montreal's 19 and 20 year old centers who are young/inexperienced/light/etc...

 

[DancingPanther]

G-C-V
Farabee-Hayes-Konecny
JVR-Laughton-NAK
Raffl-Grant-Pitlick

This is the way

 

[Rebels57]

G-C-V
Farabee-Hayes-Konecny
JVR-Laughton-NAK
Raffl-Grant-Pitlick

Sold. You can swap JVR and Farabee as well.

Laughton played himself off of the 2nd line last night as far as i'm concerned.

 

[Rebels57]

It's sort of ironic that we are scared to play our 21 year old center because he's too young/inexperienced/light/etc., and instead play Nasty Nate because he is a veteran/heavy/experience/reliable , who is getting dominated by Montreal's 19 and 20 year old centers who are young/inexperienced/light/etc...

 

[Adtar02]

He could just stop being a coward and get comfortable now.

As for the TDL, they never needed to add 2 centers. They were rolling along just fine without them. Fletch "fixed a problem" that didn't exist. It didn't make sense that day and afterwards everyone just assumed Nate would the be 13th forward, rather than the 2C at 5v5.

Seems like fletchers m.o. he added two rd hedging his bets one could really help. He added two centers at a time we only needed one especially with how Laughton was playing. Right or wrong he seems really go with safety in numbers.

That being said. Ghost has played well and should be in the line up. He also should be being use to his strengths. Too many times I see him staying by the net as the man to clear the crease. This isn’t his strength. While he isn’t our best damn along the boards he is certainly better there then clearing the net. Unless he comes in for a rd I don’t see him playing much. As hagg seems to fit the system the coaches want to play back there. They aren’t going to change the system for one d. I wouldn’t mind him in for Braun or nisky. Especially if you put him back with g on the pp.

As for the two centers. Please reset the lines to what was working prior to the trade deadline.

 

[Curufinwe]

AV is resorting to typical conservative scared coaching tactics.

He has coached this series almost EXACTLY like Hakstol would have. Nate Thompson the 2C at 5v5 is as f***ing Hakstol as it gets. Benching Farabee & Ghost is as Hakstol as it gets. The only notable difference is that we didn't Hakshell in the 3rd of Game 1 or 3.

Ghost played half his 5on5 minutes with Provorov in Hak's last playoff series.

 

[Striiker]

What did I just read... The fact that there's Hagg praise in this thread is beyond depressing. This board should be better than that.

Let's be honest for a second here, Hagg replacing Ghost had literally nothing to do with them winning this game. Just like there's zero truth that Ghost is worse defensively or turns the puck over more than Hagg... at best that's just lazy stereotyping, at worst it's downright lying. On top of that, Ghost was far from our worst defensemen in the loss or the series overall, so blaming him makes no sense. He just got scapegoated by Hakstol 2.0 because he's unable to properly judge guys like Niskanen, Braun, Thompson, or Grant... and obviously Hagg too. He has his fetish, that's for sure.

We won because of six players carrying the team: Couturier, Giroux, Voracek, Sanheim, Myers, and Hart. They simply all played much better than they did in the previous game, while everyone else basically sucked just as hard, and luckily it was enough to get the win. That was the only difference, along with the Habs hitting like 5 posts. Obviously those six guys playing better had nothing to do with Hagg either, especially when you see how little he was on-ice with them and look at the difference in his stats with and without them. He was bad in all three zones and got carried, as always.

 

[Curufinwe]

Seems like fletchers m.o. he added two rd hedging his bets one could really help. He added two centers at a time we only needed one especially with how Laughton was playing. Right or wrong he seems really go with safety in numbers.

Grant can also play wing. I don't know why they couldn't try that and move Raffl to center.

 

[Petr Svoboda Mullet]

G-C-V
Farabee-Hayes-Konecny
JVR-Laughton-NAK
Raffl-Grant-Pitlick

This is the best we can hope for.

 

[Adtar02]

Grant can also play wing. I don't know why they couldn't try that and move Raffl to center.

I got butchered for saying Raffl can be a good forth line center. Last off-season.