Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part VII (No Kakko/Hughes Talk)

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Gorton will be attending this tournament.

Alex Turcotte.

Glad to see that he’s healthy enough to play. The initial roster announcement left a spot open in case he was ready.

A big tournament here would solidify him as a top-5 pick, IMO. I already think he’s pushing for the 2nd best C in this class.
 
I’d try to trade up to get Soderstrom or York. Go for the highest quality players this draft. There is enough quantity in the system.

Kakko (I’m hoping it’s him) can be on the ice in game 1 of next season. It changes the dynamic of the rebuild.

If the Jets get bounced early, there’s a good chance both of those guys slide to that pick in the late teens.
 
Kreider has an 11 team no trade list. Perhaps we should remember that he has a degree of control over some potential moves.

That’s one reason why I’m not sure Kreider would hypothetically be traded directly to the team in the top 10. I feel like IF it were to happen, there’s a good chance a prior step is needed.

That’s why I keep coming back to scenario where the Rangers have a pick in the early teens and approach a team ahead and dangle Winnipeg’s pick as an incentive for them to slide down 4 slots or so.

If you’re Anaheim, do you have an interest in 14 and 22 for 9? Same for Vancouver.
 
That’s one reason why I’m not sure Kreider would hypothetically be traded directly to the team in the top 10. I feel like IF it were to happen, there’s a good chance a prior step is needed.

That’s why I keep coming back to scenario where the Rangers have a pick in the early teens and approach a team ahead and dangle Winnipeg’s pick as an incentive for them to slide down 4 slots or so.

If you’re Anaheim, do you have an interest in 14 and 22 for 9? Same for Vancouver.
Where are they getting this pick at 14/early teens?
 
His opinion certainly carries more weight than yours. It’s also probably far more informed and partially reflects the opinions of at least some others in the profession.

For what it's worth, I've heard it too. I've rarely commented on anything regarding sources or insider info but I do have access to someone very high up at MSG who's been a long-term family friend. I didn't even ask about Shattenkirk, and rarely ask anything, but it came up in conversation with my father who relayed it to me. The concerns about having Staal, Smith, Shattenkirk while still paying $3.6M on the Girardi buyout and a bunch of young D coming along, plus potentially Fox and/or the idea of maybe trading for one. It's all tied together and really hampers the rebuild. Up front is looking mighty good now for the future, but we're still handcuffed on the back-end and the discussion was about trying to move on of those three. What was said was along the lines of "it can happen, but it's not gonna be a good situation" implying value is very low for all three. One quote was "his one leg up on the others is being a righty".

But hey, one opinion, or two opinions don't make it a confirmation. Sometimes GM's do real dumb things. We know all about that =)

Edit: And personal opinion? Though it's easy to say it now, and back then I agreed with the buyout (though I also wanted to keep Stralman over him)... I'd rather have Girardi right now @ 5.5M for just one more season than pay his buyout $3.6M next season (not even counting the 3 further years at $1M) AND Shattenkirk at $6.5M. That's $10M of uselessness vs. $5.5 of an overpaid #6. It'd allow us to buyout Staal or Smith potentially, with just 20-21 being a noteworthy hit for both, and maybe somehow move the other. I can't wait until the new crop comes in, and let's refrain from signing anyone with a last name that starts with S. We ditched the one we should have kept, and the others are all messing with us right now. Even Skjei to some level.
 
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I also highly doubt the scout is "far more informed" but you do you, baby.
The arrogance of this post is pretty astouding, but you do you, baby.
 
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Do you really believe a (presumed) low level pro scout who likely makes in the low-mid five figures is going to be well informed with all the trade discussions high executives are having? Particularly one for a rival team of the Rangers given that the Rangers almost never make trades with the Flyers/Devils/Isles/Penguins/Caps outside of the Grabner deal.

I would not exactly say people work their way up in the NHL. A ton of GMs/scouts/managements qualifications for the job are simply "was a former player."

You mean the higher level executives who are taking into account what their professional scouting staff is telling them?

The former player thing is way over-blown as a negative. Yes, like a lot of other industries, it absolutely helps to have connections. That being said, most guys who go into management after their playing careers don't get those jobs without showing some aptitude for the business side of things. The ones who become scouts likely showed some understanding of talent evaluation as players. Diminishing hires because they used to be players is like automatically saying that a retail manager's only qualifications for the job are simply "used to work the counter." Yeah, no shit they have a leg-up, but that doesn't necessarily imply they aren't qualified. Plenty of people do get promoted to the level of their incompetence, but that is equally true of those who are former players and those who are not.

When I said lower-levels, I didn't necessarily mean lower leagues, though you see that at times too. What I mostly meant is lower positions within the NHL organization. Steve Yzerman spent time in advisory capacity with the Red Wings and ran Hockey Canada for a few years before becoming GM of the Lightning. Joe Sakic spent time as an adviser for the Avs before becoming VP of Hockey Ops and then GM. Jim Benning was a scout for 5 years, then headed up an amateur scouting department, was AGM for like 10 years, then became a GM. We've been watching Chris Drury take on different roles and he'll be a GM eventually somewhere.

The point is that players represent the same cross-section of competency as the rest of the population does, but with the benefit of connections and having the experience of being around the day-to-day of teams for years. It's no surprise that so many scouts and front office types are former players and it's no negative.
 
Real professionals shouldn't make definitive rhetorical proclamations. I'm sure Shattenkirk isn't a sought-after hot commodity. But to dismiss him as a complete zero is silly.
 
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You mean the higher level executives who are taking into account what their professional scouting staff is telling them?

The former player thing is way over-blown as a negative. Yes, like a lot of other industries, it absolutely helps to have connections. That being said, most guys who go into management after their playing careers don't get those jobs without showing some aptitude for the business side of things. The ones who become scouts likely showed some understanding of talent evaluation as players. Diminishing hires because they used to be players is like automatically saying that a retail manager's only qualifications for the job are simply "used to work the counter." Yeah, no **** they have a leg-up, but that doesn't necessarily imply they aren't qualified. Plenty of people do get promoted to the level of their incompetence, but that is equally true of those who are former players and those who are not.

When I said lower-levels, I didn't necessarily mean lower leagues, though you see that at times too. What I mostly meant is lower positions within the NHL organization. Steve Yzerman spent time in advisory capacity with the Red Wings and ran Hockey Canada for a few years before becoming GM of the Lightning. Joe Sakic spent time as an adviser for the Avs before becoming VP of Hockey Ops and then GM. Jim Benning was a scout for 5 years, then headed up an amateur scouting department, was AGM for like 10 years, then became a GM. We've been watching Chris Drury take on different roles and he'll be a GM eventually somewhere.

The point is that players represent the same cross-section of competency as the rest of the population does, but with the benefit of connections and having the experience of being around the day-to-day of teams for years. It's no surprise that so many scouts and front office types are former players and it's no negative.

I disagree. If this was the case you would see it in all sports. It's purely an NHL thing. The MLB which is far more analytical has 1 GM who used to be a MLB player. The NBA has 7 former players as GMs (and is very different in the first place given players kind of do their own thing there). The NFL has 5 (of which only 2 were real long term players in Elway/Lynch). And then you have the NHL with 21. There is obviously a disconnect here when the NHL has more former player GMs than every other professional sports leagues combined...by a lot. The NHL is behind the times compared to other leagues.

And I don't have a problem with the guys you mentioned. I know Drury is working his way up and didn't get immediately handed a top position and he's been doing that for years. That's fine. It's the guys like...to use an NFL example John Elway who just decide they want to run a team and next thing you know they run a team that's a big problem. But either way having played the game introduces a lot of biases to how you see it and what you think is important. Players of course like enforcers on their team as it makes them feel good/safe. Doesn't make they actually have any value. Same for in football of course players like running backs on the team who can help run the clock and keep the ball away from the other team. Doesn't mean they are that important.
 
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That’s one reason why I’m not sure Kreider would hypothetically be traded directly to the team in the top 10. I feel like IF it were to happen, there’s a good chance a prior step is needed.

That’s why I keep coming back to scenario where the Rangers have a pick in the early teens and approach a team ahead and dangle Winnipeg’s pick as an incentive for them to slide down 4 slots or so.

If you’re Anaheim, do you have an interest in 14 and 22 for 9? Same for Vancouver.

Ask for the list see what's on it.

Which maybe they already did this past deadline?

Or maybe the list has to be submitted annually and is still in effect, or maybe the deadline list, if there was one is still valid?

Without knowing the language, it's impossible to say.
 
Shattenkirk has not had value since his injury, and even before he was going to have trouble being seen as more than an okay defender who was really good on the PP.

That is not an appeal to authority, just been opinion all along.

I think with a full off-season off, if the injury can heal, and he can train, he could return to an okay defender who is good on the PP. If so, I still have a difficult time seeing him have a lot of positive trade value. Perhaps in his last year post bonus, or if the Rangers retain, or as outgoing rental, or as part of some larger deal.
Yup. Shattenkirk will not have any value on the trade market until next year's deadline. Someone will want him to help their PP for the play-offs. What will he fetch in return? Too early to tell, imo.
 
Is anyone watching the game? I’m at work so I missed it, is there any way to watch the full game?
 
Ville Heinola



Renuanen's teammate. The Rangers probably have seen a decent amount of Heinola this season while they monitored Tarmo's progress.

Two honourable mentions who didn’t quite make it to this 16-prospect list are U.S. U-18 goal-scoring machine Cole Caufield (No. 18 at midseason) and Finnish defenceman Ville Heinola, who was No. 24 at midseason.

https://www.tsn.ca/hughes-kakko-in-tight-race-for-top-spot-1.1284470

McKenzie is on top of the draft stuff. There is nobody better. He has slipped a bit in the other areas. Bob is counting the days until he can spend every night making pizza and drinking wine with his wife. If you listen to his podcast, he is counting the days until retirement.

Heinola could be available at the Winnipeg pick assuming they don't reach the WCF.
 
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Heinola is definitely a guy on my radar at the Jets pick.

He and Poulin (shout out @Lays) are guys I’m starting to really like at the Jets spot.

I love Seider/Caufield as well but I’m expecting to be top-20, maybe top-15 picks.
 
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Has anyone seen Lassi Thomson play? I've only read stuff about him. Is he someone we could be potentially looking at with the Tampa pick (should they win the cup)?
 
We won't be selecting with the Jets pick....

It's going to be used to move into the top 10 :nod:
Well now that you brought it up, I relistened to the latest 31 Thoughts podcast and they interviewed Benning pre-lottery and he mentioned that he just didn’t want to drop a few spots. Now that might change with some incentive, but it also might mean they’ve keyed in on someone and don’t want to move. Right this second, based on nothing, I feel like Edmonton’s and Anaheim’s would be the easiest to trade up to (after getting a closer first than Winnipeg’s)
 
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