Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part VII (No Kakko/Hughes Talk)

[brians1128]

welcome to the dark side

absolutely agree.

kakko/newhook then a dman end of round 1 would be the cats ass for day 1

He is a rather dynamic offense player, he has a power game he has a finesse game, he has a good shot, he can be a play maker, but this doesnt come with some concern. He is very much a boom bust type of player. He has beaten himself in international play (mentally gets frustrated), the BCHL effect of seeing where he would project if he played in lets say the CHL. I think though with the number of hits we have had in the first round, taking the high upside players in last years draft, and landing Kakko, it just seems go big again, and I really think that getting a second top 10 pick is gonna be much harder then people think.

 

[Kovalev27]

hard no

never draft goalie in round 1.

if want to draft goalie in round 1.

slap face.

then slap again.

What did I say in my post?

 

[bobbop]

Yup there’s been smoke about Kessel to AZ for a while now and it’s already been confirmed he would be willing to go to AZ. Some talk of a deal around 14th overall and Kessel

Kessel and Tocchet are tight. Probably depends on how much Penguins retain. I don’t think the Coyotes can swallow the whole contract.

 

[Irishguy42]

A lot of scenarios that can play out for the Rangers right now outside Hughes/Kakko.

Ideally, if the WPG pick ends up at 18 and not 22, I'd see if the likes of Kaliyev/Newhook at available there. Caufield is likely moving up, maybe even into the Top 10. If it ends up more on the later side, I think Fagemo is the choice.

If the DAL pick becomes a 1st (28-31), then I think going for the likes of Seider/Robertson/Harley would be a good get. Fagemo if he falls that low and you think one of those D will be available at our second round pick (37)

 

[Synergy27]

I’m growing more and more uncomfortable with the possibility that my two favorite prospects from the last two drafts are going to be Philadelphia Flyers - Farabee and Caufield. Note that favorite does not equal my picks for best player, just guys I like to root for.

 

[Mikos87]

I feel like Arizona would be more interested in Kessel than Kreider

Tochett and Kessel have a great relationship. I would think that ARI would give up that 14th overall for Kessel instead of Kreider.

I really can't think of any other team than EDM who would be interested in moving a 1st for Kreider that's in the top 15. Now the question is, if the Rangers are willing to help take a Chiarelli contract off of their hands.... then I could see a deal.

My guess is that the Oilers take Boldy with the pick. He's a 17 year old version of Kreider unless they get cap relief.

Net/Net EDM will have $12M in cap space.

You have expiring deals in

Kassian-- 1.9
Benning-- 1.9
Manning-- 2.3

Does taking two of those on facilitate that incentive?
More importantly, does Kreider re-sign there?

 

[bobbop]

I think Edmonton will be very loathe to take anyone headed to the American college route.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

As of now I really want Kakko and Caufield (trading up) or Kakko and Seider (no trading up hopefully)

 

[Mikos87]

I think Edmonton will be very loathe to take anyone headed to the American college route.

Could be, they've avoided USNDP kids, but they'd be doing themselves a disservice. It'd be Benson over DeBrincat all over again.

Boldy fits exactly what they've been looking for. Question is would Boldy banking on 4 years in collage instead of the NHL next to McDavid?

He could be making $6M a year by the time he's 21-22 by riding shotgun to McDavid. Boldy is 1 year away from the NHL.

 

[Matt4776]

Tochett and Kessel have a great relationship. I would think that ARI would give up that 14th overall for Kessel instead of Kreider.

I really can't think of any other team than EDM who would be interested in moving a 1st for Kreider that's in the top 15. Now the question is, if the Rangers are willing to help take a Chiarelli contract off of their hands.... then I could see a deal.

My guess is that the Oilers take Boldy with the pick. He's a 17 year old version of Kreider unless they get cap relief.

Net/Net EDM will have $12M in cap space.

You have expiring deals in

Kassian-- 1.9
Benning-- 1.9
Manning-- 2.3

Does taking two of those on facilitate that incentive?
More importantly, does Kreider re-sign there?

It's not my money so it's easier for me to say, but I'd gladly take all three of those contracts and retain on Kreider if it facilitates a move for the 8th overall.

 

[Edge]

Could be, they've avoided USNDP kids, but they'd be doing themselves a disservice. It'd be Benson over DeBrincat all over again.

Boldy fits exactly what they've been looking for. Question is would Boldy banking on 4 years in collage instead of the NHL next to McDavid?

He could be making $6M a year by the time he's 21-22 by riding shotgun to McDavid. Boldy is 1 year away from the NHL.

I’d think Boldy is on the table for them, Cozens if he is there, and maybe even dark horses like a Caufield or Kaliyev.

 

[Mikos87]

It's not my money so it's easier for me to say, but I'd gladly take all three of those contracts and retain on Kreider if it facilitates a move for the 8th overall.

I would too. I'd like to have open cap space this off-season, but those ~2M deals are easy to bury. And open cap spaces facilitates moves like this.

 

[Mikos87]

I’d think Boldy is on the table for them, Cozens if he is there, and maybe even dark horses like a Caufield or Kaliyev.

I agree. They want scoring wingers. Once that can play sooner rather than later. So there's an impetus on timing. Thus a potential for a trade... but not one without a few dependencies.

Kaliyev gets a bad rep because his coach benched him in the playoffs last year when Hamilton was protecting leads. A 16 year old getting limited ice-time for a junior contender isn't a new concept. I think scouts and teams are holding Arthur to an irrational standard.

Because if you look at the standard of 17 year olds who scored 50 in the OHL.... there are a bunch of consistent 30 goal scorers in the NHL.

 

[Edge]

I agree. They want scoring wingers. Once that can play sooner rather than later. So there's an impetus on timing. Thus a potential for a trade... but not one without a few dependencies.

Kaliyev gets a bad rep because his coach benched him in the playoffs last year when Hamilton was protecting leads. A 16 year old getting limited ice-time for a junior contender isn't a new concept. I think scouts and teams are holding Arthur to an irrational standard.

Because if you look at the standard of 17 year olds who scored 50 in the OHL.... there are a bunch of consistent 30 goal scorers in the NHL.

The question for Kaliyev will be whether his strengths outweigh the list of things he doesn’t do particularly well.

So a team will have to weigh that potential 30 goal production against a guy who might not bring anything else to the table.

And as we’ve seen in the playoffs this year, you need more than the ability to pop in goals in order to succeed.

I like Kaliyev, and I’d consider him in the teens. But I also have questions about whether he can round out his game enough to be more of a core player on a successful team, or whether he’s more of a specialist on said team.

 

[Mikos87]

The question for Kaliyev will be whether his strengths outweigh the list of things he doesn’t do particularly well.

So a team will have to weigh that potential 30 goal production against a guy who might not bring anything else to the table.

And as we’ve seen in the playoffs this year, you need more than the ability to pop in goals in order to succeed.

I like Kaliyev, and I’d consider him in the teens. But I also have questions about whether he can round out his game enough to be more of a core player on a successful team, or whether he’s more of a specialist on said team.

That's exactly it. IMO he's a top 6 scorer on non-playoff teams unless a coach breaks through to him and it works out. Sometimes you get a run with guys like that.

Kaliyev screams Mike Hoffman to me. Which isn't necessarily bad... but to your point... is a guy like that part of a cup contender?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

That's exactly it. IMO he's a top 6 scorer on non-playoff teams unless a coach breaks through to him and it works out. Sometimes you get a run with guys like that.

Kaliyev screams Mike Hoffman to me. Which isn't necessarily bad... but to your point... is a guy like that part of a cup contender?

Can be for sure. Ryder was very crucial for the Bruins when they won.

He can't be the guy or really one of the top 3 guys for your team though.

 

[duhmetreE]

I'd love to have Caufield and Kakko on the same line for 12-15 years

 

[Edge]

That's exactly it. IMO he's a top 6 scorer on non-playoff teams unless a coach breaks through to him and it works out. Sometimes you get a run with guys like that.

Kaliyev screams Mike Hoffman to me. Which isn't necessarily bad... but to your point... is a guy like that part of a cup contender?

Personally, I want to come away from this draft with impact players. Not just skilled players, but potential impact players.

Players who bring what they bring, but then have added value: they make their linemates better, their line make it easier for other lines to play their role, guys who help you build a complete TEAM and who you can envision doing anything to win.

I think Kakko has the potential to be that guy. I think the four centers we’ve talked about have the potential to be a part of that effort - especially Zegras.

So when I talk about Kreider trades and moving up and taking big swings, it’s not about moving veterans because they’re over the age of 26, or falling in love with shiny new toys or crazy amounts of first round picks. It’s a particular skill set and approach I am looking for.

It’s me looking at a teenager and being able to envision his game translating to the NHL and him being a guy you win with. As such, some guys jump out at me a little more than others.

Why is my dream coming away with Kakko and Zegras? It’s not because they solve all our problems. It’s not just because I love the tools. It’s because I see something in them that has a chance to enhance what we already have and build something with the potential to be special.

Could we do something with a combo of Kakko and Kaliyev? Or maybe Kakko and Newhook?

Absolutely.

But if you’re giving me the option, I think I explore a way to pay the price for Kakko and Zegras/Turcotte/Cozens/Dach first.

 

[Edge]

Can be for sure. Ryder was very crucial for the Bruins when they won.

He can't be the guy or really one of the top 3 guys for your team though.

And that’s the question of how close to the inner core does a team project someone like Kaliyev to be. That’s going to vary by team, but I think having questions about him is fair.

 

[Matt4776]

Personally, I want to come away from this draft with impact players. Not just skilled players, but potential impact players.

Players who bring what they bring, but then have added value: they make their linemates better, their line make it easier for other lines to play their role, guys who help you build a complete TEAM and who you can envision doing anything to win.

I think Kakko has the potential to be that guy. I think the four centers we’ve talked about have the potential to be a part of that effort - especially Zegras.

So when I talk about Kreider trades and moving up and taking big swings, it’s not about moving veterans because they’re over the age of 26, or falling in love with shiny new toys or crazy amounts of first round picks. It’s a particular skill set and approach I am looking for.

It’s me looking at a teenager and being able to envision his game translating to the NHL and him being a guy you win with. As such, some guys jump out at me a little more than others.

Why is my dream coming away with Kakko and Zegras? It’s not because they solve all our problems. It’s not just because I love the tools. It’s because I see something in them that has a chance to enhance what we already have and build something with the potential to be special.

Could we do something with a combo of Kakko and Kaliyev? Or maybe Kakko and Newhook?

Absolutely.

But if you’re giving me the option, I think I explore a way to pay the price for Kakko and Zegras/Turcotte/Cozens/Dach first.

Zegras was my crush pre-lottery.

If we can come out of the draft with Kakko/Zegras, I would quite possibly be the happiest man in New York for at least a week.

 

[Edge]

I'd love to have Caufield and Kakko on the same line for 12-15 years

Caufield would definitely be a kid I’d consider in the teens, or certainly as a move-up from the Jets pick.

 

[Edge]

Zegras was my crush pre-lottery.

If we can come out of the draft with Kakko/Zegras, I would quite possibly be the happiest man in New York for at least a week.

You take the title in NY, I’ll hold down the fort in PA.

 

[Ola]

hard no

never draft goalie in round 1.

if want to draft goalie in round 1.

slap face.

then slap again.

Things can change.

Knight should be gone when its our turn the 2nd time around, so I think its a mute question.

 

[Mikos87]

Personally, I want to come away from this draft with impact players. Not just skilled players, but potential impact players.

Players who bring what they bring, but then have added value: they make their linemates better, their line make it easier for other lines to play their role, guys who help you build a complete TEAM and who you can envision doing anything to win.

I think Kakko has the potential to be that guy. I think the four centers we’ve talked about have the potential to be a part of that effort - especially Zegras.

So when I talk about Kreider trades and moving up and taking big swings, it’s not about moving veterans because they’re over the age of 26, or falling in love with shiny new toys or crazy amounts of first round picks. It’s a particular skill set and approach I am looking for.

It’s me looking at a teenager and being able to envision his game translating to the NHL and him being a guy you win with. As such, some guys jump out at me a little more than others.

Why is my dream coming away with Kakko and Zegras? It’s not because they solve all our problems. It’s not just because I love the tools. It’s because I see something in them that has a chance to enhance what we already have and build something with the potential to be special.

Could we do something with a combo of Kakko and Kaliyev? Or maybe Kakko and Newhook?

Absolutely.

But if you’re giving me the option, I think I explore a way to pay the price for Kakko and Zegras/Turcotte/Cozens/Dach first.

Build an identity. I would love to see that. It's interesting, I've got guys on a DnD list because they don't fit the identity I want. I think the Rangers lost an identity under AV after MSL retired. There wasn't a unifying leader within that locker room to preaches accountability.

So the Quinn hire made a lot of sense to me. That said, I'm partial to big boy hockey and high hockey IQ players with speed. So those skill guys are guys I'd want with wheels and not just skill. I think Zegras was the Rangers choice at 7. Is that 8th overall attainable? Maybe... and the cost would be something I'm happy to move if it's along the lines of Kreider, Vesey + contracts coming back. In terms of value, I'm not sure the Rangers have enough that warrants that 8th overall pick without some finagling.

The only two teams I see as proactively incentivized to move picks in the top 15 are EDM & ARI.

ARI would be a lot easier to deal with. But the whole thing with Kessel... I think it has real legs. Phil has term, and outscored Kreider by nearly 2x in some seasons. Plus the Tochett relationship being what it is.

 

[Ola]

Can be for sure. Ryder was very crucial for the Bruins when they won.

He can't be the guy or really one of the top 3 guys for your team though.

Yeah, and great point, but Ryder was a real dribbler. Arthur Kaliyev is a real shooter, much more than the average scoring winger in today's hockey, he sets up in open ice to fire away if someone else can get him the puck.

There are so many players that can shoot the puck in hockey, but in the NHL today -- by far -- the hard thing is not to beat the goalie, it is to get an opportunity to take those shots.

Kaliyev is a young kid in a big body that can develop a lot. I would be excited if we got him. But, if it was up to me I don't think he should go top 25. He just isn't good enough overall, the bread 'n butter game isn't very good. Is it horrible? No, of course not, and I am not saying that he can't get there. But I just think you got to start looking at attitude, and if that is there you look on the overall game, does he drives play. Does he make his teammate better. Does he gets up ice and keep the puck within the team, win it back when you lose it. That is what the game is about today. Then you can start to look at finishing skills.

For me his overall game is just not good enough to bump other kids that I would have in front of him. I would rather bet on them, and I am as keen on potential and high upside as everyone else. But I see that upside in that speedy dynamic offensive game that is flourishing in the NHL. Maybe Kaliyev can be the exception to that rule, hockey isn't black and white in that sense and there aren't only one way to be successful in this league. But those exceptions are exceptionally hard to find as a rule.