Do you think we should try the Swedes in top 4 roles to start 22 - 23 season?

[stickty111]

He was never the better prospect vs. Liljegren. He had some things on Liljegren, like puck moving ability and some better IQ in the offensive zone, but I always had Liljegren over Sandin.

I can see an argument of Sandin over Liljegren, but the thinking he was far superior was never true.

 

[francis246]

He was never the better prospect vs. Liljegren. He had some things on Liljegren, like puck moving ability and some better IQ in the offensive zone, but I always had Liljegren over Sandin.

I do think he was better initially. Hockey IQ is a pretty important thing and Liljegren lacked that early on, where as Sandin you could see looked a bit more comfortable as a pro to start. I think Liljegren has really stepped it up and developed nicely. I don’t know if one is really better than the other. They are just better at different things.

But to see a lot of the board suddenly flip on Sandin is quite funny.

 

[ToneDog]

Leafs outplayed TB.

And still lost. You can hang on to that thinking but IMO this version of Tampa is much better than the one the Leafs played. I do give Leafs credit for taking them to the brink but Tampa recovered when they had to and when it counted, they outscored us 4-1.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I do think he was better initially. Hockey IQ is a pretty important thing and Liljegren lacked that early on, where as Sandin you could see looked a bit more comfortable as a pro to start. I think Liljegren has really stepped it up and developed nicely. I don’t know if one is really better than the other. They are just better at different things.

But to see a lot of the board suddenly flip on Sandin is quite funny.

Offensive IQ he did. With the puck too. Liljegren always looked more refined defensively than Sandin though. He was taking better routes and had better positioning.

 

[Sypher04]

Listing off a bunch of guys heights and weights and pointing see this is why we lose is such a surface level and antiquated way of thinking

I mean, if you can have a bunch of bigger guys that’s good sure, but height and weight don’t really drive defensive ability. The physical demeanour and work ethic of the player means a lot more. Our guys are not small, they just aren’t always as aggressive as we’d like to see them

The reason Tampa stands out is there guys are both big and physically agressive simultaneously which makes them hard to force through, even though we largely did anyway

 

[ToneDog]

Listing off a bunch of guys heights and weights and pointing see this is why we lose is such a surface level and antiquated way of thinking

I mean, if you can have a bunch of bigger guys that’s good sure, but height and weight don’t really drive defensive ability. The physical demeanour and work ethic of the player means a lot more. Our guys are not small, they just aren’t always as aggressive as we’d like to see them

The reason Tampa stands out is there guys are both big and physically agressive simultaneously which makes them hard to force through, even though we largely did anyway

We do not need more 6'4" Holls. We need more 6'3" prime Muzzins.

 

[ULF_55]

Tampa going to the finals for a 3rd consecutive year with a top 4 of Hedman 6'6" 241, McDonagh 6'1" 215, Sergachev 6'3" 216 and Cernak 6'3" 230.

Rielly 6'1" 220, Brodie 6'1" 179, Lily 6'1" 192, and Sandin 5'11" 178.

One team wins cups, the other loses in round #1. Willing to bet the solution is not to get smaller, lighter and softer on D.

Muzzin is in the Leafs top 4, 6'3", 226 lbs.

However,
Vasilevskiy 6'3", 225
Campbell 6'3", 207

Colorado has 4 defenders under 200 lbs.
Girard is out now, so most ice time was going to the lightest players, with Manson, Johnson and Johnson getting the less ES time.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Muzzin is in the Leafs top 4, 6'3", 226 lbs.

However,
Vasilevskiy 6'3", 225
Campbell 6'3", 207

Colorado has 4 defenders under 200 lbs.
Girard is out now, so most ice time was going to the lightest players, with Manson, Johnson and Johnson getting the less ES time.
View attachment 558278

Boston also had 4 defensemen 5'11" or smaller when they went to game 7 of the finals.

I couldn't care less how big a defense group is if they're talented.

You can always find some big face punchers to fill out depth spots.

 

[jaric1862]

Sandin is going to have to get used to playing the right side, so in his case I’d say no.

Liljergren definitely should get a shot h there.

 

[ToneDog]

Muzzin is in the Leafs top 4, 6'3", 226 lbs.

However,
Vasilevskiy 6'3", 225
Campbell 6'3", 207

Colorado has 4 defenders under 200 lbs.
Girard is out now, so most ice time was going to the lightest players, with Manson, Johnson and Johnson getting the less ES time.
View attachment 558278

The thread is titled "Do you think we should try the Swedes in top 4 roles to start 22 - 23 season". I was assuming that meant a top 4 of 44,78,37 and 38.

Yup the Avs D is closer to our D when it comes to size so they will be challenged by Tampa. They do have Makar and Byram though.

 

[ULF_55]

Sandin is going to have to get used to playing the right side, so in his case I’d say no.

Liljergren definitely should get a shot h there.

Sandin needs to be given some time to make that switch, and I'd rather it not be with Rielly.

 

[ULF_55]

The thread is titled "Do you think we should try the Swedes in top 4 roles to start 22 - 23 season". I was assuming that meant a top 4 of 44,78,37 and 28.

Yup the Avs D is closer to our D when it comes to size so they will be challenged by Tampa. They do have Makar and Byram though.

View attachment 558279

Multi-tasking ... I missed that.

On the third pair I'd be okay, but don't know how that works, with the defenders they have even if they move Holl.

Rielly, Brodie, Muzzin, Giordano, Liljegren, Sandin

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Liljegren
Giordano-Sandin

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Giordano
Sandin-Liljegren

Someone has to play their off-side, besides Brodie who always does,

 

[Antropovsky]

Who cares if they outplayed them, it means nothing if you still lose the series overall.

Also - it may have looked like we outplayed them because we were playing from behind. It's common for teams that are ahead in games to be outshot because they are focused on defending the lead.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Leafs outplayed TB.

Have a participation ribbon.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Rielly Liljegren
Muzzin Brodie
Giordano Holl
Sandin

No point in trading guys away now only to spends assets at the deadline to get a top 4 dman.

Keep the 7 bc injuries happen.

Holl above Sandin would be a dumb choice

Leafs outplayed TB.

But Tampa won so they didn't

 

[Community]

Too much shiny new toy syndrome going on...

I've always preferred Liljegren over Sandin (or at least similar). Now that Liljegren has shown his potential, most people are underselling Sandin. Having said that, you can't run with Sandin in the #4 spot to start the season after the year he just had. However, it's time to see what we have in the two at the start of the season instead of trying to work them in with 20 games to go. If they both preform well we have a lot more flexibility to make other moved as needed before thr TDL.


I feel like the following CAN work:

Rielly - Brodie
Gio - Liljegren
Sandin - xxxx
Holl

Muzzin traded (cap), Holl kept for depth. Hoever, that 3rd pairing dman needs to pretty much be a #4 level guy for this defense to work IMO.

Our defense is better with Muzzin kept, but we need to better allocate that cap. Holl can replace Sandin and be a #6 if Sandin struggles, or the new dman moves up to replace Liljegren. Be great if we could find a #4 who can play both sides since Holls a RHD, but I'm sure that's being too optimistic.

Maybe we trade Holl and sign Strahlman too (or somebody similar)? He'd likely be a cheaper #7 and provide some leadership even if he doesn't play as much. Not sure how well his game has held up, but seems like he still has a bit left in the tank?

Lots of questions and the cap plays a major role. You might see both dmen in the top 6 to start the year, but in the top 4 is not the right strategy.

 

[Sypher04]

We do not need more 6'4" Holls. We need more 6'3" prime Muzzins.

Yes, that was exactly my point. A 6’ guy who plays like prime Muzzin did would also be perfectly good.

 

[Rocky Flintstone]

Tampa going to the finals for a 3rd consecutive year with a top 4 of Hedman 6'6" 241, McDonagh 6'1" 215, Sergachev 6'3" 216 and Cernak 6'3" 230.

Rielly 6'1" 220, Brodie 6'1" 179, Lily 6'1" 192, and Sandin 5'11" 178.

One team wins cups, the other loses in round #1. Willing to bet the solution is not to get smaller, lighter and softer on D.

We went through half a decade of bigger = better, and it got us last place finishes. If the difference between a first round exit and a cup were really so simple, they boys could just slam cup cakes all off season.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Sandin is OK. Not bad, not great. Was hyped up because Kyle drafted him. Even though Liljegren was a smelly old Lou pick, I think he's the better player.

 

[saltming]

The thread is titled "Do you think we should try the Swedes in top 4 roles to start 22 - 23 season". I was assuming that meant a top 4 of 44,78,37 and 28.

Yup the Avs D is closer to our D when it comes to size so they will be challenged by Tampa. They do have Makar and Byram though.

View attachment 558279

It's a bit ironic that you point out 2 guys on the avs d under 200lbs or were you making some other point?

 

[Avilaj07]

With Chicago having a fire sale it seems, I'd look at getting Dach and Murphy from them. Murphy would slot in beside Rielly and finally give him a capable top 4 rhd to play with. Dach would slide into our 3rd line center spot, and can rotate on Tavares wing if needed.

To Toronto-
Dach
Murphy

To Chicago-
Sandin
Kerfoot
1st Round Pick

 

[LeafEgo]

Tampa going to the finals for a 3rd consecutive year with a top 4 of Hedman 6'6" 241, McDonagh 6'1" 215, Sergachev 6'3" 216 and Cernak 6'3" 230.

Rielly 6'1" 220, Brodie 6'1" 179, Lily 6'1" 192, and Sandin 5'11" 178.

One team wins cups, the other loses in round #1. Willing to bet the solution is not to get smaller, lighter and softer on D.

Before Tampa the Blues had Petro, Parayko, Edmonson, and Bortuzzo in the lineup. And last years Habs had Weber, Petry, Chariot, and Edmonson. This template has been pretty successful recently.

Avs have bucked the trend a bit, but they have had their playoff struggles and acquiring Manson at the deadline shows they were thinking about their lack of size. Makar and Toews at the top is also a supercharged Reilly and Brodie, so that helps as well mitigate the risk.

Unless Muzzin falls off a cliff next year I don't think there is a place for Sandin come next playoffs.

 

[LeafEgo]

Hedman is on another level with his physical gifts. He's naturally just a giant and to a lessor extent sergachev, whom I love to death and would love him on this team.
If I were to list them
Hedman quite obviously
Rielly
Sergachev he's still young and might surpass Rielly but not yet imo
I feel Rielly has improved along the boards and in front of the net.
Brodie I have zero issues. I would also place him above sergachev atm because he plays very clean defense and seldom makes mistakes. Again the possibility is there for sergachev to pass with time and given his size and skills will be a stud d man for Tampa.
My choice would obviously be to have a top 4 of Hedman Rielly sergachev and Brodie hahahaha but to answer your question, I go with Hedman sergachev but that's because Hedman is another teir than we have and makes up for the difference of our 2 over sergachev.

To that I do agree that size and weight matter but I still put strength above it. Now naturally size usually equals strength but not always, hence my differentiation between them.

I think you are under stating your last point here. In combat sports weight classes can be as little as 5lbs to make things fair.

Acknowledging that there are exceptions, I think generally speaking the Leafs need to get bigger on the back end before they get smaller.

 

[LeafEgo]

I can see an argument of Sandin over Liljegren, but the thinking he was far superior was never true.

Maybe not to some of the experts in here that follow the prospects closely but a couple playoffs ago when Sandin was QBing the PP like an elite dman, coupled with the stats in his first years with the Marlies, his stock was pretty high.

That's since changed of course.

 

[rocketman588]

Before Tampa the Blues had Petro, Parayko, Edmonson, and Bortuzzo in the lineup. And last years Habs had Weber, Petry, Chariot, and Edmonson. This template has been pretty successful recently.

Avs have bucked the trend a bit, but they have had their playoff struggles and acquiring Manson at the deadline shows they were thinking about their lack of size. Makar and Toews at the top is also a supercharged Reilly and Brodie, so that helps as well mitigate the risk.

Unless Muzzin falls off a cliff next year I don't think there is a place for Sandin come next playoffs.

I honestly do not get their previous play off struggles while undersized they have 3 or 4 of the best defensemen in the world in addition to great offensive talent

Shows how difficult it is to win