Do you believe in Dubas?

[zeke]

There is a right way though. That’s build. I don’t mean you will win the cup but if your team is structured to skill, forecheck, grind, play 1-0, play 7-6, play dirty then you have given yourself multiple chances to survive random teams of 4 rounds.

If you are built only one way and I can recognize how to shut that down, you probably don’t win many rounds.

do you believe the leafs are only built one way?

 

[Trapper]

do you believe the leafs are only built one way?

IMO yes. Words like compete, killer instinct, hard to play don’t work hard are constantly being said.
The core all plays the same way and the team lacks the additional cap for those high level support like Palat/Killorn/Kunitz,Wilson,Buff,etc type players. The core plays like game 22 despite the situation.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Honestly I can respect anyone's opinion on Kyle being unfit to be the GM, I just happen to think the exact opposite.

It's hard for us Dubas supporters to argue the results. The playoff success has not been there, and that is ultimately what this group will be judged by. I put that blame more on Mitch and Auston. They have not been the star players we need them to be when it matters the most. Hard to believe any GM in the league would have been able to eek out more from those 2 during Kyle's tenure (thus far).

The idea that Kyle is "not experienced enough" is ridiculous IMO. Kyle has spent the majority of his life in the game and has started from the ground up. He has been successful at every level, and he understands every aspect of what it takes to run a successful organization.

I understand there is a level of knowledge on the inner workings of a room that Kyle may never fully understand to the same degree as a former player would. But don't kid yourselves, we have plenty of former players in our organization to provide feedback in that capacity.

As far as I'm concerned, Kyle is a student of the game. He's been successful at every level prior to the NHL, no reason he won't learn to find the formula that works at the highest level. He's learned a f*** ton in his first 3 seasons as GM, and realistically he hasn't made any moves that have catastrophically set us back. In fact, our future still looks quite bright despite the overwhelming disbelief on here some days. For a team that's made the playoffs the last 5 years, and a team that's only selected in the 1st round 3 times in that time span, we have a lot of promise in our pool. Believe it or not, there are brighter days ahead.

Has he made mistakes? 100% but so does every other GM in the league.

The good far outweighs the bad. I have more trust in Kyle than any GM before him, and like our young core, I believe Kyle is constantly maturing as well. I am confident he has learned from the mistakes of his past, and I really do think it would be a mistake to get rid of him no matter the outcome of this season. I just don't see a Stevy-Y out there for the taking, and until I see a GM that shows that level of promise I see absolutely no reason to shift gears.

 

[Mess]

Despite Dubas being on record, suggesting he thought about trading a core piece this offseason?

Yes, because talk is cheap, but actions speak louder than words and that is where its at..

The fact that Dubas explored or contemplated the idea of trading a core player only strengthens the case that change might be needed. .. The only thing that prevented the GM himself from making the move was they didn't believe it made the team better in the present, and/or nobody was offering enough in exchange in his opinion to make that move.

If you read his comments closely

“We looked at everything. I know that there is a feeling that the core group is protected, and we have a strong belief in them. But I think we would look at anything that would that would improve our team overall, regardless.”

“I'm excited for (the players) to pick themselves back up and get back at it in a few weeks and get into the season,” Dubas said. “And if things come up along the way that can improve our team, that's the job. And we'll be aggressive in trying to do that.

“But at this moment, none of those things have come across where I felt our team would be better. It might have satisfied the masses and the team might have looked different. But there was nothing that came across, from the day that we ended the season against Montreal ’til today, where I felt that we would have been absolutely better.”

 

[Trapper]

Honestly I can respect anyone's opinion on Kyle being unfit to be the GM, I just happen to think the exact opposite.

It's hard for us Dubas supporters to argue the results. The playoff success has not been there, and that is ultimately what this group will be judged by. I put that blame more on Mitch and Auston. They have not been the star players we need them to be when it matters the most. Hard to believe any GM in the league would have been able to eek out more from those 2 during Kyle's tenure (thus far).

The idea that Kyle is "not experienced enough" is ridiculous IMO. Kyle has spent the majority of his life in the game and has started from the ground up. He has been successful at every level, and he understands every aspect of what it takes to run a successful organization.

I understand there is a level of knowledge on the inner workings of a room that Kyle may never fully understand to the same degree as a former player would. But don't kid yourselves, we have plenty of former players in our organization to provide feedback in that capacity.

As far as I'm concerned, Kyle is a student of the game. He's been successful at every level prior to the NHL, no reason he won't learn to find the formula that works at the highest level. He's learned a f*** ton in his first 3 seasons as GM, and realistically he hasn't made any moves that have catastrophically set us back. In fact, our future still looks quite bright despite the overwhelming disbelief on here some days. For a team that's made the playoffs the last 5 years, and a team that's only selected in the 1st round 3 times in that time span, we have a lot of promise in our pool. Believe it or not, there are brighter days ahead.

Has he made mistakes? 100% but so does every other GM in the league.

The good far outweighs the bad. I have more trust in Kyle than any GM before him, and like our young core, I believe Kyle is constantly maturing as well. I am confident he has learned from the mistakes of his past, and I really do think it would be a mistake to get rid of him no matter the outcome of this season. I just don't see a Stevy-Y out there for the taking, and until I see a GM that shows that level of promise I see absolutely no reason to shift gears.

I don’t think Dubas is a terrible GM, I think he’s a good GM who did a bad thing early on.

That bad thing was learning in the job how to negotiate contracts. Then it was assessing the difference between regular season core/playoff core.

He has made good moves for the likes of Muzzin/Campbell, signing Brodie and drafting is fine.

It was betting his farm in the 4 guys he fell into assuming that skill alone makes a core.

You can’t pay all that and choices needed to be made which he couldn’t.

 

[Fogelhund]

Yes, because talk is cheap, but actions speak louder than words and that is where its at..

The fact that Dubas explored or contemplated the idea of trading a core player only strengthens the case that change might be needed. .. The only thing that prevented the GM himself from making the move was they didn't believe it made the team better in the present, and/or nobody was offering enough in exchange in his opinion to make that move.

If you read his comments closely

“We looked at everything. I know that there is a feeling that the core group is protected, and we have a strong belief in them. But I think we would look at anything that would that would improve our team overall, regardless.”

“I'm excited for (the players) to pick themselves back up and get back at it in a few weeks and get into the season,” Dubas said. “And if things come up along the way that can improve our team, that's the job. And we'll be aggressive in trying to do that.

“But at this moment, none of those things have come across where I felt our team would be better. It might have satisfied the masses and the team might have looked different. But there was nothing that came across, from the day that we ended the season against Montreal ’til today, where I felt that we would have been absolutely better.”

So your preference would have been for him to make a trade, just to satisfy those wanting a change... not to make the team better?

 

[Apex Predator]

I don’t think Dubas is a terrible GM, I think he’s a good GM who did a bad thing early on.

That bad thing was learning in the job how to negotiate contracts. Then it was assessing the difference between regular season core/playoff core.

He has made good moves for the likes of Muzzin/Campbell, signing Brodie and drafting is fine.

It was betting his farm in the 4 guys he fell into assuming that skill alone makes a core.

You can’t pay all that and choices needed to be made which he couldn’t.

I agree that it seems like Dubas has learned that all skill isn’t the way like he originally thought. Over the last few years he’s slowing been changing his ways and that shows his learning.

 

[Trapper]

I agree that it seems like Dubas has learned that all skill isn’t the way like he originally thought. Over the last few years he’s slowing been changing his ways and that shows his learning.

The problem is though, IMO, the skill needs to have those Bergeron/Marchand qualities in it as well.
It doesn’t matter how many times you swap Ritchie/Simmonds/etc., the intensity or multiple styles need to exist in your core.

 

[zeke]

The problem is though, IMO, the skill needs to have those Bergeron/Marchand qualities in it as well.
It doesn’t matter how many times you swap Ritchie/Simmonds/etc., the intensity or multiple styles need to exist in your core.

So it's not Dubas you don't believe in, it's the core you don't believe in.

Question: how good did you think this team would be this year? Did you expect them to run away with the division last year?

 

[Trapper]

So it's not Dubas you don't believe in, it's the core you don't believe in.

Question: how good did you think this team would be this year? Did you expect them to run away with the division last year?

This year I expect us to be top 3 in our division. Regular season we should be in the 16 teams on just skilled alone.

Last year I expected us to be final 4 in a 7 team, all Canadian division. But I’m not confident in this core or depth in the playoffs.
That being said, I thought regardless of that we’d still get through the Canadian division anyway.

 

[Apex Predator]

The problem is though, IMO, the skill needs to have those Bergeron/Marchand qualities in it as well.
It doesn’t matter how many times you swap Ritchie/Simmonds/etc., the intensity or multiple styles need to exist in your core.

yeah I’m on the same page as you with that. The contracts he gave hurt us and has been making it hard to navigate to get him the pieces to help with that. If those guys aren’t able to take it to the next level then we won’t be able to win in the playoffs.

 

[zeke]

This year I expect us to be top 3 in our division. Regular season we should be in the 16 teams on just skilled alone.

Last year I expected us to be final 4 in a 7 team, all Canadian division. But I’m not confident in this core or depth in the playoffs.
That being said, I thought regardless of that we’d still get through the Canadian division anyway.

So you didn't expect them to run away with the division last year?

And you can't say anything more about this year other than "top 16"?

 

[Twine Tickler]

I don’t think Dubas is a terrible GM, I think he’s a good GM who did a bad thing early on.

That bad thing was learning in the job how to negotiate contracts. Then it was assessing the difference between regular season core/playoff core.

He has made good moves for the likes of Muzzin/Campbell, signing Brodie and drafting is fine.

It was betting his farm in the 4 guys he fell into assuming that skill alone makes a core.

You can’t pay all that and choices needed to be made which he couldn’t.

I think the biggest mistake Kyle made as a GM was sign John Tavares.

It's a hard thing to say, because JT is a world class player, and he really has been great since being a Leaf. But that deal set an internal cap structure that we could never get away from. The subsequent Matthews and Marner deals were virtually unavoidable at that point. I really do think the Willy deal is fair, and it was fair when he signed it. But Matthews and Marner used the JT deal as leverage, and it really did hurt the club. The unforeseen flat cap years that came thereafter only amplified the problem.

I often wonder what would have happened with this group had we just stayed the course and kept Brown, Kappy, Kadri, Johnssson, Hyman etc... I still don't know if it would all fit under the cap, because I do think Muzz and Brodie were necessary moves. But nonetheless, Some variation of our current roster and what could have been. Maybe Kappy, Brown, and Hyman in place of JT

not to mention my whole original point of the JT deal setting the benchmark for Auston and Mitch's deals, so realistically there may have been more money to play with to maybe even keep Kadri as well if AM and MM signed for less.

it's really hard to tell what team would be better. It's easy to say the "what could have been" team knowing that we haven't succeeded with our current group, but ultimately we have been let down by our 2 stars in the playoffs every year. That was unlikely to change no matter who played in behind them. And lets not forget, those players listed above also spent many years with this team and struggled just the same, so it's not like we didn't try that formula either, we just weren't as patient with them as we are with Mitch, Willy and Auston.

But ya, if there is one thing Kyle may secretly want back, it may be going for it too early and the ripple effect it caused thereafter.

He's done an outstanding job managing thereafter, and realistically the JT signing has never prevented Kyle from icing a great team. For reasons that don't make sense, this team just has not succeeded when it matters the most.

 

[Pi]

IMO yes. Words like compete, killer instinct, hard to play don’t work hard are constantly being said.
The core all plays the same way and the team lacks the additional cap for those high level support like Palat/Killorn/Kunitz,Wilson,Buff,etc type players. The core plays like game 22 despite the situation.

I can kind of agree about this. This team struggles against the same kind of teams: Islanders, St. Louis, Carolina etc. Teams who just suffocate us and don't allow any space or speed in the neutral zone. Those games turn into 2-1 goal games and rarely is it us with the 2 goals.

I think sooner or later though they are going to break through and win in the playoffs. You don't necessarily have to be the best team in the league to win, you just have to be good and lucky to have your entire core going at once.

So you didn't expect them to run away with the division last year?

And you can't say anything more about this year other than "top 16"?

What else is there to say? The team underperforms in the playoffs. Until they prove it, how can anyone really trust them to go far.

I believe they are a team that can win the Cup but regardless of the opponent, the Leafs have lost 5 straight and if they don't finish first in the division to face a wild card team that is significantly weaker than facing the 2nd or 3rd seed in our division, they could easily lose 6 straight playoff series.

If Toronto, Florida and Tampa are the top 3 of our division, I'd rather be 1st in the division and face the Metro team in the wild card or Boston who likely gets the other wild card.

 

[zeke]

What else is there to say? The team underperforms in the playoffs. Until they prove it, how can anyone really trust them to go far.

I believe they are a team that can win the Cup but regardless of the opponent, the Leafs have lost 5 straight and if they don't finish first in the division to face a wild card team that is significantly weaker than facing the 2nd or 3rd seed in our division, they could easily lose 6 straight playoff series.

If Toronto, Florida and Tampa are the top 3 of our division, I'd rather be 1st in the division and face the Metro team in the wild card or Boston who likely gets the other wild card.

I just find it interesting that the same people who have no faith in dubas or the core also perennially underrate how good the team is, by a significant margin.

 

[hotpaws]

I just find it interesting that the same people who have no faith in dubas or the core also perennially underrate how good the team is, by a significant margin.

you've been saying this every season for the 12 yrs i've been on this board and then disappear for a month or so when they don't make the playoffs or get knocked out early then get right back at telling everyone how great the team is . lol

hopefully your right one of these years

 

[Apex Predator]

you've been saying this every season for the 12 yrs i've been on this board and then disappear for a month or so when they don't make the playoffs or get knocked out early then get right back at telling everyone how great the team is . lol

hopefully your right one of these years

I wish I had the faith he has. We’ve seen them do good in the regular season. I’ve seen it enough to know that whatever they do in the regular season means nothing till they show it in the playoffs.

 

[zeke]

you've been saying this every season for the 12 yrs i've been on this board and then disappear for a month or so when they don't make the playoffs or get knocked out early then get right back at telling everyone how great the team is . lol

hopefully your right one of these years

Did you think they would run away with the division last year? Did you think they were a bubble team this year?

 

[Apex Predator]

Did you think they would run away with the division last year? Did you think they were a bubble team this year?

I’ve seen you ask a few people this? Is there a reason this relates to the Leafs not getting it done in the playoffs?

 

[Dreakmur]

Did you think they would run away with the division last year? Did you think they were a bubble team this year?

Yes, I thought the North was weak last year, and figured Toronto would battle Winnipeg for the top spot.

Yes, I think they'll be in a dog fight for the three divisional play-off spots this year.

 

[zeke]

I’ve seen you ask a few people this? Is there a reason this relates to the Leafs not getting it done in the playoffs?

Do you think being consistently wildly wrong about how good a team is during whole seasons says something about one's evaluation of that team?

 

[zeke]

Yes, I thought the North was weak last year, and figured Toronto would battle Winnipeg for the top spot.

Yes, I think they'll be in a dog fight for the three divisional play-off spots this year.

So you didn't think they would run away with the division last year.

And I think you're saying you think they are a bubble team (I.e. a medicore team) this year?

 

[saffronleaf]

Do you think being consistently wildly wrong about how good a team is during whole seasons says something about one's evaluation of that team?

people aren't concerned about whether this team is a president's trophy contender, it's all about the stanley cup. so when people say the team is not good, they're not saying they won't have a great regular season.

 

[Apex Predator]

Do you think being consistently wildly wrong about how good a team is during whole seasons says something about one's evaluation of that team?

I think it was you the said something along the lines about losing faith on the players and not Dubas. So maybe that’s a better way to word it because I do like some of the work Dubas has done and how he’s adjusting his strategy.

As for your question yes it would be wrong but it seems most people seem to think this team is good. The issue isn’t that they think the team isn’t good but how they perform in the playoffs and when pressure is on them. When constantly failing to get over that hump you lose faith and start to ask questions like maybe this core can’t do it.

All these advanced stats mean nothing if they keep getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

 

[zeke]

people aren't concerned about whether this team is a president's trophy contender, it's all about the stanley cup. so when people say the team is not good, they're not saying they won't have a great regular season.

But if they are wildly wrong about how good the team is over the course of entire seasons (consistently in the same direction too) - surely that says something about their evaluation of the team, no?