Do you believe in Dubas?

[Dreakmur]

So you didn't think they would run away with the division last year.

I thought both Toronto and Winnipeg would beat up on a weak division.

And I think you're saying you think they are a bubble team (I.e. a medicore team) this year?

I think they'll be a bubble team, but it has more to do with the tougher competition than them being mediocre.

 

[zeke]

I think it was you the said something along the lines about losing faith on the players and not Dubas. So maybe that’s a better way to word it because I do like some of the work Dubas has done and how he’s adjusting his strategy.

As for your question yes it would be wrong but it seems most people seem to think this team is good. The issue isn’t that they think the team isn’t good but how they perform in the playoffs and when pressure is on them. When constantly failing to get over that hump you lose faith and start to ask questions like maybe this core can’t do it.

All these advanced stats mean nothing if they keep getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

But you must agree that there's a difference between an elite team and a bubble team, no?

 

[zeke]

I thought both Toronto and Winnipeg would beat up on a weak division.

I think they'll be a bubble team, but it has more to do with the tougher competition than them being mediocre.

So you didn't think they would run away with the division (you thought they were comparable to the jets), and you think they are a bubble team but not a mediocre team? Not sure exactly what that means?

 

[Apex Predator]

But you must agree that there's a difference between an elite team and a bubble team, no?

yes there is a difference. Do you think the Leafs are elite?

Also finishing behind Florida, Tampa Bay and Boston is not a bad thing. Those are very good teams. That’s why a lot of people think they will be in the wild card spot fighting for a spot. Not crazy to think they will finish behind those three.

 

[Dreakmur]

But if they are wildly wrong about how good the team is over the course of entire seasons (consistently in the same direction too) - surely that says something about their evaluation of the team, no?

But being wrong about the play-off results doesn't say anything....

 

[zeke]

yes there is a difference. Do you think the Leafs are elite?

Also finishing behind Florida, Tampa Bay and Boston is not a bad thing. Those are very good teams. That’s why a lot of people think they will be in the wild card spot fighting for a spot. Not crazy to think they will finish behind those three.

Maybe stop beating around the bush? I guess we could look up posts or you could just honestly say what level of team you thought the leafs were coming into the season?

Did you think they were mediocre and in tough to make the playoffs or not?

And yes, I thought they were one of the best teams in the league last year (and they were) and again this year.

 

[fahad203]

We went from a potential powerhouse to a now a decent team in the span of 3 years

We had so much depth. A depth of leagues to envy. We lost to some serious contenders in Boston and Washington and we were still young

You dismantle that to a team that can't beat Columbus who couldn't score goals at home then being beaten by another team that had hard time scoring in Montreal

Dude has absolutely ruined this team and now finding patch player to make up for it and too risk averse

I wonder if people who support Dubas watch other teams. Tampa, Colorado, carolina Vegas, St Louis and islanders and can honestly say we play at their compete level or pace

He's very smart. That's the problem. He's smart while really good gms have a feel for their team and game

He should be like JFJ, excel in other areas of the game. Maybe in Cap or scout. Not the prime decision maker

 

[Dreakmur]

So you didn't think they would run away with the division (you thought they were comparable to the jets), and you think they are a bubble team but not a mediocre team? Not sure exactly what that means?

Toronto didn't run away with the division. They had the exact same W-L record as Edmonton, but they got 5 extra points for losing in OT.

 

[Apex Predator]

Maybe stop beating around the bush? I guess we could look up posts or you could just honestly say what level of team you thought the leafs were coming into the season?

Did you think they were mediocre and in tough to make the playoffs or not?

And yes, I thought they were one of the best teams in the league last year (and they were) and again this year.

I thought they would be a good team in tough to make the playoffs. I’m not beating around the bush. My options are elite or mediocre. You’re kind of forcing me into a tough spot by choosing either elite or mediocre. Why can’t they be in the middle and be good but might be in tough? I don’t think they’re elite.

 

[zeke]

Toronto didn't run away with the division. They had the exact same W-L record as Edmonton, but they got 5 extra points for losing in OT.

Nice. Because getting whupped in regulation is no different than losing 3 on 3 OT.

5pts gap.

No other division had more than a 1pt gap between 1st and 2nd.

 

[Dreakmur]

Nice. Because getting whupped in regulation is no different than losing 3 on 3 OT.

5pts gap.

No other division had more than a 1pt gap between 1st and 2nd.

Maybe that's why they can't win a play-off series.... no loser points.

 

[zeke]

I thought they would be a good team in tough to make the playoffs. I’m not beating around the bush. My options are elite or mediocre. You’re kind of forcing me into a tough spot by choosing either elite or mediocre. Why can’t they be in the middle and be good but might be in tough? I don’t think they’re elite.

A team in tough to make the playoffs is a mediocre team though.

 

[Apex Predator]

A team in tough to make the playoffs is a mediocre team.

If finishing behind Florida, Tampa and Boston and having to try and secure a wild card spot against those teams is mediocre then I guess the Leafs are mediocre.

There is a lot of parity in the NHL and the leafs will lose games against those wild card teams that are mediocre to you.

 

[zeke]

If finishing behind Florida, Tampa and Boston and having to try and secure a wild card spot against those teams is mediocre then I guess the Leafs are mediocre.

There is a lot of parity in the NHL and the leafs will lose games against those wild card teams that are mediocre to you.

Ah come on. Dont give me this "have to secure a wildcard spot" silliness. If you think they are in tough to finish top 8 in in conference then you think they are mediocre. Let's have an honest conversation at least.

 

[Apex Predator]

Ah come on. Dont give me this "have to secure a wildcard spot" silliness. If you think they are in tough to finish top 8 in in conference then you think they are mediocre. Let's have an honest conversation at least.

We’re having an honest conversation. I’m telling you my opinion you just don’t like it. I respect that you think the Leafs are elite and are confident that they will make the playoffs.

 

[zeke]

We’re having an honest conversation. I’m telling you my opinion you just don’t like it. I respect that you think the Leafs are elite and are confident that they will make the playoffs.

I don't think we are.

You keep trying to say they are in tough to make the playoffs but not mediocre.

That just doesn't add up. It's not an honest opinion. You're trying to have it both ways.

 

[hotpaws]

Did you think they would run away with the division last year? Did you think they were a bubble team this year?

and for 12 yrs you’ve been telling us this year is different because um , reasons , lol

and as I already said , hopefully your right this time

 

[zeke]

and for 12 yrs you’ve been telling us this year is different because um , reasons , lol

and as I already said , hopefully your right this time

Mischaracterizing 12 years of arguments is just a lazy personal attack, not an actual argument.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Maple Leafs ownership ‘fantastically supportive’ of Shanahan’s plan - Sportsnet.ca

Internally, there is a direct line of belief in place.

Shanahan has his handpicked GM, and Kyle Dubas has his handpicked head coach. Sheldon Keefe had a major voice in selecting his current assistants. And the brain trust agreed to double-down on its Core Four star forwards, avoid blockbuster trade temptation, and re-up top defenceman Morgan Reilly before the bill came due.

The sense that this could be a make-or-break campaign for the key players involved is well founded.

Remember, Dubas declared heading into this fall: “For better or worse, I believe in this group…. I know that the decision lies on me, and the risk is for me in going ahead that way.”

A run of eight wins in nine outings (some ugly, some dominant) has helped ease the tension in Leafland from the rocky four-game losing skid that preceded it.

Shanahan joined that rocky October roadie following Toronto’s embarrassing 7-1 loss to Burke’s depleted Penguins squad, and his presence spurred (denied) speculation that someone (Dubas? Keefe? A star player?) might not be long for the Blue and White.

Adversity like that is a reminder of the radioactive market in which Shanahan must steer this ship, but it could well be directed as fuel for this spring.

During a rare public appearance, Shanahan again endorsed everyone under his employ.

“I think we’ve got a great coach. I think we’ve got a great general manager. And I think the whole staff is really committed to it,” Shanahan said, unwavering.

“We’ve got fantastic players who care a lot. They want to be the ones. Not everybody wants to play in a big city where there’s a lot of pressure, but our guys want to be the ones to rewrite history here in Toronto."

“They understand it has to happen in the playoffs. It hasn’t happened yet, but I do really believe in them all that we’re going to get it done.”

Shanahan’s company line hasn’t changed much from the tone he struck after the Leafs’ Round 1 collapse to the Montreal Canadiens.

But one of the great unknowns is how Shanahan’s own bosses, Larry Tanenbaum and Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment, truly feels about his plan to keep running it back through the adversity.

Tanenbaum has been spotted at multiple home games this season and went into the dressing room to congratulate the players after a win.

“Ownership has been fantastically supportive,” Shanahan said.

“And when I look at some of these players we have—good mix of veterans, young guys, many that we drafted and brought up—to me, it’s about going through these adverse moments so your stronger when the playoffs do come."

“You keep pounding on that door until you finally break the door down.”

 

[hotpaws]

Mischaracterizing 12 years of arguments is just a lazy personal attack, not an actual argument.

Personal attack ?

and how did I “mischaracterize” your argument , all I said is every year I’ve been on this board you’ve been telling us we’ve been undervaluing the team , which is the truth so i have no idea why this would upset you

 

[geo25]

We went from a potential powerhouse to a now a decent team in the span of 3 years

We had so much depth. A depth of leagues to envy. We lost to some serious contenders in Boston and Washington and we were still young

You dismantle that to a team that can't beat Columbus who couldn't score goals at home then being beaten by another team that had hard time scoring in Montreal

Dude has absolutely ruined this team and now finding patch player to make up for it and too risk averse

I wonder if people who support Dubas watch other teams. Tampa, Colorado, carolina Vegas, St Louis and islanders and can honestly say we play at their compete level or pace

He's very smart. That's the problem. He's smart while really good gms have a feel for their team and game

He should be like JFJ, excel in other areas of the game. Maybe in Cap or scout. Not the prime decision maker

BINGO!

 

[Zybalto]

Team with the most points in the NHL since the start of 2017 (Matthews sophomore season):

1. Tampa: 425
2. Boston: 408
3. Washington: 398
4. Vegas: 388
5. Toronto: 384

The Leafs have a good shot of moving into the top 4 and holding it after this season and have certainly been a real powerhouse in the league. Hopefully, they can break through in the playoffs this year to shut down the naysayers.

 

[Ashdown2]

BINGO!

this is a dumb argument ........ its easy to have depth when your top 3 guys were on ELC contracts , we live it a cap world every team in history with a superstar on ELC will give up depth trying to resign them, yet alone 3 of them.
even in a world that each player makes 2 mil less, you still lose 90% of that depth .... its basically the same roster with hyman contract eating the difference or having a jvr eat 6mil and be more useless than a sack of potatoes.

 

[Pi]

Team with the most points in the NHL since the start of 2017 (Matthews sophomore season):

1. Tampa: 425
2. Boston: 408
3. Washington: 398
4. Vegas: 388
5. Toronto: 384

The Leafs have a good shot of moving into the top 4 and holding it after this season and have certainly been a real powerhouse in the league. Hopefully, they can break through in the playoffs this year to shut down the naysayers.

No one ever doubts this team in the regular season. The playoffs is where they have continually failed and I am hoping they can change that this year.

I still strongly believe that all they need is one playoff round win for it to go straight to their legs and dominate the rest of the playoffs. Maybe I am a fool for thinking that but I am sticking by it.

Last year's loss has really been a downer. We beat Montreal and there is very little chance we don't make it to the CF or the SCF. It feels like a massive lost opportunity and I hope the players feel that too and use that to make amends this year.

The year Columbus beat Tampa was also a great opportunity if we just knew how to defend and kill penalties as we completely outplayed Boston on ES. Boston ended up in the SCF after beating us...no one came close on the Eastern side to beating or dominating Boston so yeah this team is capable of winning but it's time to show results now.

 

[deprw]

We went from a potential powerhouse to a now a decent team in the span of 3 years

We had so much depth. A depth of leagues to envy. We lost to some serious contenders in Boston and Washington and we were still young

You dismantle that to a team that can't beat Columbus who couldn't score goals at home then being beaten by another team that had hard time scoring in Montreal

Dude has absolutely ruined this team and now finding patch player to make up for it and too risk averse

I wonder if people who support Dubas watch other teams. Tampa, Colorado, carolina Vegas, St Louis and islanders and can honestly say we play at their compete level or pace

If you look any of your examples you find out pretty soon that all of them has lost depth in last three years. It's the price being in top echelon of this league. Boston has lost tons of value in players and will due so even more in few years.

Hunter drop the ball with drafting and that is the reason we don't have that much cheap young depth in our roster, but since his departure our prospect pool is looking better.