Do you believe in Dubas?

[666]

Do you believe he can adapt and turn it around quickly?

The question is, does he want to disassemble the core. A homer would say that we were up 3-1 on a cup finalist so we were pretty good 10 games ago so he might keep the core together, hope for a $95M cap in three years and try to contend for one year with Matthews. That's at least an option.

The alternative is to disassemble what he built and try again. If they chose to go that route he might have the skills. What he seems to be pretty good at is not having these horrible Lucic, Zaitsev type contracts even if he does overpay stars a bit.

Ultimately, Dubas had a contingency in that he acquired some pretty good assets with very few crappy assets and that gives him a lot of options.

 

[sparxx87]

I agree with your way of pushing JT out the door. The only problem is that you effectively kill off your chances of signing any future UFA (might not be a bad thing in a way) by doing that. I have said the exact same thing..."Sorry John...but we paid you to be a difference maker and gave you the Captaincy to lead us...you have failed in both respects, we held up our end of the deal by paying you what you wanted...goodbye or sit in the pressbox until you come to your senses and leave"

I think it would depend. It might force a future NMC that otherwise wouldn't be there, but it only looks bad if its the same people who signed it.

I'd hope players and player agents understand why a new regime might look to restructure their cap. As a potential employee who wants to have success, I'd take their ability to make tough decisions like that as a positive but it's fair to say that not everyone would see it that way.

 

[666]

the cap going up does not guarantee the core players producing in the playoffs. essentially, the cap can go to $120 million but if the top guys don't produce, does the cap really matter ?

It's impossible to know how our stars would perform if they didn't have crap like Thornton, Simmonds, Ritchie and Hyman playing on the first line and PP. The problem isn't the core, it's the crap that they are surrounded with because covid has frozen the cap.

 

[4thline]

@sparxx87

I disagree on the Tavares front. I think he gives you a legitimate stop gap if things sour with Matthews and you auction off the last year, and that the cap can be manageable without an 11m winger.

And to that effect- my target is Clayton Keller, would like a plus but the he's a high end playmaker, I'd consider it straight up. We get the cap space, they get the better player, dollars about even. Message sent.

 

[Gabriel426]

It's impossible to know how our stars would perform if they didn't have crap like Thornton, Simmonds, Ritchie and Hyman playing on the first line and PP. The problem isn't the core, it's the crap that they are surrounded with because covid has frozen the cap.

Florida seems to be doing good with Jumbo. Oilers doing well with Hyman. Brown is doing good with the Sens. Heck even Kap seems to be playing a more complete game with the Pens than with us.
The problem see with our core is that they seem to be only good when playing together instead of separately. And if they don’t perform, it drags down the team, pretty much what they are doing now.

 

[capfit9]

what has this core done in the last three years during the playoffs at the most critical times. the team themselves admitted it last playoffs. "Killer Instinct"

NADA.ZERO.ZILCH

 

[sparxx87]

It's impossible to know how our stars would perform if they didn't have crap like Thornton, Simmonds, Ritchie and Hyman playing on the first line and PP. The problem isn't the core, it's the crap that they are surrounded with because covid has frozen the cap.

That, or structuring their salary at an $80M cap ceiling but needing "$95-100M soon" to ice a contending team with said structure.

Someone already said it, that was the worst 'plan' ever.

 

[666]

Florida seems to be doing good with Jumbo. Oilers doing well with Hyman. Brown is doing good with the Sens. Heck even Kap seems to be playing a more complete game with the Pens than with us.
The problem see with our core is that they seem to be only good when playing together instead of separately. And if they don’t perform, it drags down the team, pretty much what they are doing now.

You mentioned four players and four different teams. We had three of those guys in the top 6 at the same time. But even more importantly we couldn't even come close to affording those guys now. Maybe the solution is to put JT, Matthews and Marner on the same line. Or of course disassemble the core.

 

[Gabriel426]

You mentioned four players and four different teams. We had three of those guys in the top 6 at the same time. But even more importantly we couldn't even come close to affording those guys now. Maybe the solution is to put JT, Matthews and Marner on the same line. Or of course disassemble the core.

Think they done the big three already this season and the results ain’t good.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Claude Julien is available and just might help the team with it's defense problem, since scoring hasn't been much of a problem.

It's not going to solve anything.

It's the players.

Sorry, not sorry

 

[666]

That, or structuring their salary at an $80M cap ceiling but needing "$95-100M soon" to ice a contending team with said structure.

Someone already said it, that was the worst 'plan' ever.

Some people have trouble thinking ahead. If that $95M-100M cap was this year or next and we had 3 years of Matthews left to contend I would have been ok with that.

 

[666]

Think they done the big three already this season and the results ain’t good.

I say try it for 10 games. What have we got to lose?

 

[Nineteen67]

I believe in Dubas going to Chicago to clean up their mess.

 

[sparxx87]

@sparxx87

I disagree on the Tavares front. I think he gives you a legitimate stop gap if things sour with Matthews and you auction off the last year, and that the cap can be manageable without an 11m winger.

And to that effect- my target is Clayton Keller, would like a plus but the he's a high end playmaker, I'd consider it straight up. We get the cap space, they get the better player, dollars about even. Message sent.

Fair. I'm not familiar with Keller's specific skill set as I rarely watch the Yotes so I can't really speak to that... but if they can get similar playmaking effect with a better shooting threat and a better attitude it's definitely something worth considering.

We agree on the need for strength down the middle and I'm with it for Tavares at $7M, but for the price of him and Kerfoot (14,5M) they could have 3 very good centremen who can star in their roles. They still don't have a 3rd centre but I actually like Kampf as a 4th centre. He's a little sweet for my taste but he's a smart player that knows how to play without the puck. Too bad he isn't a little better with it.

 

[sparxx87]

Some people have trouble thinking ahead. If that $95M-100M cap was this year or next and we had 3 years of Matthews left to contend I would have been ok with that.

Fair enough. That type of increase in cap was a massive stretch, especially if you look at the escrow... and you being happy with a 3 year window after drafting Matthews in '16 seems like an incredibly low bar... but if thats what would have made you happy, thats fine. Can't argue.

Personally, I think they should have been a lot more ambitious than a 3 year window.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I'm not arguing that. I'm just telling everyone what the plan was and that it was a good plan.

The plan was to contend the second they signed Tavares.

 

[666]

The plan was to contend the second they signed Tavares.

To be fair that's probably technically right because they had one year 18-19 where only JT and Nylander were on their new contracts but by the next year the big four were consuming $40M and I doubt that they really expected to contend then. I think the plan was to contend in 18-19 then do their best under cap constraints until about this year when they would be less constrained.

 

[Kazparov]

I disagree that Dubas rushed the rebuild. Drafting a 1st overall with the skill set of Matthews is when the push to put the best foot forward should begin IMO. I do think fair criticisms can be found in the contracts/cap structure and whether or not the team currently has an effective enough mix of players though.

I understand the reasoning and it was perfectly valid to think that way at the time. But it has been demonstrated on the ice up to this point that the core of young stars do not have what it takes to win on a psychological / maturity level.

So I stand by that statement. This team needed to struggle more for their success and their contracts in order to foster a winning culture.

 

[666]

Fair enough. That type of increase in cap was a massive stretch, especially if you look at the escrow... and you being happy with a 3 year window after drafting Matthews in '16 seems like an incredibly low bar... but if thats what would have made you happy, thats fine. Can't argue.

Personally, I think they should have been a lot more ambitious than a 3 year window.

The contending window only starts once we sign JT in 18-19. The next year we signed Matthews for 5 years. So the window was only 6 years and of those 6 I expected them to contend that last 3 and the first one when Matthews and Marner were on entry contracts. Four out of six years isn't bad and of course the teams when we re-sign Matthews and JT comes off the books the next year could still be contenders.

 

[sparxx87]

To be fair that's probably technically right because they had one year 18-19 where only JT and Nylander were on their new contracts but by the next year the big four were consuming $40M and I doubt that they really expected to contend then. I think the plan was to contend in 18-19 then do their best under cap constraints until about this year when they would be less constrained.

Plan to waste some of the prime years of Matthews-Marner-Nylander-Rielly etc? #1C, #1D, #1G, you should be trying to win. Thats the holy trio thats so incredibly hard to assmble. Dubas inherited it, C at like 20 years old with prime aged D and G and planned to waste years of it? For real? Overpay important contracts and wait for the cap ceiling to catch up and make them palatable?

Again, worst plan ever.

 

[Racer88]

I say try it for 10 games. What have we got to lose?

Uh……10 games…….

 

[Mickey Marner]

I believe in Dubas going to Chicago to clean up their mess.

Y'know, that move would kind of make sense. He's the polar opposite of the old boys club that they're trying to desperately distance themselves from.

 

[Trapper]

Y'know, that move would kind of make sense. He's the polar opposite of the old boys club that they're trying to desperately distance themselves from.

Not to mention it sounds like Chicago has some serious allegations to recover from.
They need sensitivity training, harassment and prevention.

 

[666]

Plan to waste some of the prime years of Matthews-Marner-Nylander-Rielly etc? #1C, #1D, #1G, you should be trying to win. Thats the holy trio thats so incredibly hard to assmble. Dubas inherited it, C at like 20 years old with prime aged D and G and planned to waste years of it? For real? Overpay important contracts and wait for the cap ceiling to catch up and make them palatable?

Again, worst plan ever.

Yep, now we are in agreement other than the bad plan part. Burn two years out of six so that you can have JT. The alternative is to try and do it without JT. I don't even want to know what your plan would have been there but you could probably still have Kadri, Kap and Brown or something like that instead of JT but I think you'll agree that that's still not enough with the cap freeze.

Not signing JT was certainly an option but when you can get a JT for zero assets (other than money) you generally do it and I'm pretty sure we were all pretty happy about it at the time. Note: we still have all those great assets and if you want to try to do it without JT you still can but he's not worth the same anymore so we'll never know.

 

[sparxx87]

Yep, now we are in agreement other than the bad plan part. Burn two years out of six so that you can have JT. The alternative is to try and do it without JT. I don't even want to know what your plan would have been there but you could probably still have Kadri, Kap and Brown or something like that instead of JT but I think you'll agree that that's still not enough with the cap freeze.

Not signing JT was certainly an option but when you can get a JT for zero assets (other than money) you generally do it and I'm pretty sure we were all pretty happy about it at the time. Note: we still have all those great assets and if you want to try to do it without JT you still can but he's not worth the same anymore so we'll never know.

No thank you. I’d take JT for the $7M max I have in my 2C slot, but under no circumstances would any of my plans include paying $11M to my 2C.

You literally acknowledge he isn’t the same player which seemed predictable given his age and always mediocre-at-best skating. He was never going to be elite well into his 30’s like the contract was paying him.


You’re willingly handcuffing yourself. That’s a bad plan. For all the money they have in that ivory tower, you’d think someone might have known this.