Disney Star Wars General Discussion

[Voight]

Saw someone mention on Twitter the other day that Rogue One has the best space battle amongst Star Wars movies.

What do you guys think? After re-watching it yesterday, I'm kind of getting convinced

 

[Shockmaster]

But I do get what you're saying about pick and choose parts of the EU to keep. That statement from KK about how Marvel had so much material to pick from was such bullshit. Though I do think they're starting to take the good parts from the EU.

That should have gotten her removed as head of Lucasfilm. How did it take 8 years and a failed trilogy to realize Star Wars had plenty of source material from the EU to pick from?

 

[Tawnos]

Saw someone mention on Twitter the other day that Rogue One has the best space battle amongst Star Wars movies.

What do you guys think? After re-watching it yesterday, I'm kind of getting convinced

It's definitely among the best. It probably is the best combination space/ground battle sequence in the franchise, but I still give RotJ's space battle the edge.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Ugh, I was typing up a larger response but accidentally closed out the tab...

Anyway, I mostly agree with everything you have written. However, George Lucas (a creative mind you reference and wish the sequels had) seemingly always had Luke becoming disillusioned with the Jedi Order. Though I do think his portrayal in TLJ was too harsh.

Regarding the EU, there's no way they could have kept all of it. I don't even think they could have kept a significant amount of it. The EU was always "Legends", unless it came from the mouth of George Lucas. Lucas allowed people to play within his universe (and made money off of it). Whenever Lucas and Lucasfilm decided something in canon needed change in order to meet George's vision, they had no issues with changing it. For example, Boba Fett in his short stories and books, to Shadows of the Empire, and then to the prequels.

For example, imagine if they kept all of the EU and the majority of Star Wars fans go to the new movies expecting to see Chewbacca. Nope, got crushed by a moon. And who is this Luuke?

When I say "majority of Star Wars fans", think of people who aren't us on an internet message board talking about Star Wars.

But I do get what you're saying about pick and choose parts of the EU to keep. That statement from KK about how Marvel had so much material to pick from was such bullshit. Though I do think they're starting to take the good parts from the EU.

Hopefully that gets my point across. Still mad I closed this tab earlier......

I have no problem with Luke being disillusioned with the jedi order. I welcome it. I think it's a good idea. Where I part ways with TLJ is making Luke refuse to teach Rey, portraying him as someone who gave up on everyone and everything, making him weak (an untrained Rey easily defeating him while Rey was emotional, which was always something that was supposed to throw off jedis), the green milk thing (a little thing but just salt in the wound), making him not even inquire about his former friends.... And worst of all, him attempting to murder the son of his best friend and sister ? We're talking about Luke Skywalker here. The guy who put his life on the line to save his father who had clearly turned beyond evil and to the dark side. But when his nephew showed some inclinations toward the dark side he completely lost his shit ? Nope. sorry. None of that is right. If you're going to push that narrative you better explain it way better than TLJ did. That is just not star wars. Mark Hamilton was pissed off about all of it for a reason. It was really stupid and sad the way they treated the character. It's not even about being harsh, it was just straight up demeaning him in order to prop up Rey. The latter is my assumption since nothing else makes sense. Why buy an IP worth billions, and dump on the iconic hero of that IP ?

And I fully agree with you about the EU. My only gripe is making excuses for KK because she doesn't have source material. I'm not saying you need to make the whole EU canon. I would actually say that's a bad idea. All I'm saying is that KK doesn't understand the IP she has in her hands. So she's bound to screw it up with actual fans. All I want is someone who has passion for the IP making the creative decisions on what shows and movies to greenlight, not a soulless executive. And if KK doesn't have it in her to be that person... all she needs to do is pay someone to be that person for her and take all the credit. I don't give a shit how they do it, but SW should be just as fruitful as Marvel.

 

[Tawnos]

I have no problem with Luke being disillusioned with the jedi order. I welcome it. I think it's a good idea. Where I part ways with TLJ is making Luke refuse to teach Rey, portraying him as someone who gave up on everyone and everything, making him weak (an untrained Rey easily defeating him while Rey was emotional, which was always something that was supposed to throw off jedis), the green milk thing (a little thing but just salt in the wound), making him not even inquire about his former friends.... And worst of all, him attempting to murder the son of his best friend and sister ? We're talking about Luke Skywalker here. The guy who put his life on the line to save his father who had clearly turned beyond evil and to the dark side. But when his nephew showed some inclinations toward the dark side he completely lost his shit ? Nope. sorry. None of that is right. If you're going to push that narrative you better explain it way better than TLJ did. That is just not star wars. Mark Hamilton was pissed off about all of it for a reason. It was really stupid and sad the way they treated the character. It's not even about being harsh, it was just straight up demeaning him in order to prop up Rey. The latter is my assumption since nothing else makes sense. Why buy an IP worth billions, and dump on the iconic hero of that IP ?

And I fully agree with you about the EU. My only gripe is making excuses for KK because she doesn't have source material. I'm not saying you need to make the whole EU canon. I would actually say that's a bad idea. All I'm saying is that KK doesn't understand the IP she has in her hands. So she's bound to screw it up with actual fans. All I want is someone who has passion for the IP making the creative decisions on what shows and movies to greenlight, not a soulless executive. And if KK doesn't have it in her to be that person... all she needs to do is pay someone to be that person for her and take all the credit. I don't give a shit how they do it, but SW should be just as fruitful as Marvel.

I'm going to totally disregard your rant about Luke, because I don't agree with the characterization of the events in TLJ. That's overly covered ground.

To the broader point of the Star Wars and the EU and it's relation to the MCU here... this is what's crazy to me. Maybe it's that the SW fandom is different, or maybe it's a misunderstanding of the fandom (my preference is the latter), but you don't see Marvel fans super pissed off about the relatively major changes the MCU made to the Infinity Gauntlet storyline, especially the lack of inclusion of some major characters and the addition of other characters from the comics. I'm sure fans here and there complain, but they didn't riot or anything.

I do think the central problem is that they wanted to make a sequel trilogy, giving them the opportunity to tap into the still living iconic actors, but they didn't want to be tied to Jacen/Jaina/Anakin/Ben and the whole Yuuzhan Vong War (which is by far my least favorite thing the EU ever did, so I don't blame them). But there's plenty of other great things in the EU that they just threw out for just avoiding that, and it's a shame. Let's hope the new shows (however many of them actually get made) bring some of it back to life.

 

[Cas]

I actually wouldn't mind seeing it, as long as it doesn't involve any known characters. He's an excellent filmmaker, but I think he needs to be able to play in his own sandbox. Handing him characters with 30+ years of history and expectations was not a wise decision.

Quite frankly, I would have preferred that Disney had given Johnson the reins right from the start. I'm quite happy to watch The Last Jedi again but The Force Awakens isn't all that special and I have zero interest in bothering with The Rise of Skywalker.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Maybe it's that the SW fandom is different

Different.

But hey, the MCU fans didn't always look like intellectuals when reacting to the female heroes either.

Quite frankly, I would have preferred that Disney had given Johnson the reins right from the start. I'm quite happy to watch The Last Jedi again but The Force Awakens isn't all that special and I have zero interest in bothering with The Rise of Skywalker.

I am now getting through The Force Awakens, I think it's an ok film but the many borrowings to A New Hope are somewhat off-putting. It's kind of strange that the most original film of the whole thing came as the sequel to the tritest one.

 

[Seedtype]

It's definitely among the best. It probably is the best combination space/ground battle sequence in the franchise, but I still give RotJ's space battle the edge.

The only thing I didn't really care for was that I thought the Ion Torpedoes were way too powerful. Rebels should just always open a battle with that...

(Also, nuBSG and the Expanse novels have REALLY changed how I think how space battles should work)

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Different.

But hey, the MCU fans didn't always look like intellectuals when reacting to the female heroes either.

Yes because SW and Marvel is clearly content for intellectuals and feminists........... instead of being fantasy escapism for nerds.

 

[Tawnos]

The only thing I didn't really care for was that I thought the Ion Torpedoes were way too powerful. Rebels should just always open a battle with that...

(Also, nuBSG and the Expanse novels have REALLY changed how I think how space battles should work)

They’re really different things. Those battles are much more about the intensity of move-countermove submarine warfare, while Star Wars battles are much more a combination of aerial warfare and pre-engine naval warfare. I think both work well within the type of storytelling they’re used in.

 

[Tawnos]

Different.

But hey, the MCU fans didn't always look like intellectuals when reacting to the female heroes either.

There’s not a whole lot that’s “intellectual” about Star Wars or comic books to begin with (and I say that as a lover of both, as well as more “intellectual” media).

 

[HanSolo]

The only thing I didn't really care for was that I thought the Ion Torpedoes were way too powerful. Rebels should just always open a battle with that...

(Also, nuBSG and the Expanse novels have REALLY changed how I think how space battles should work)

Well they shot at a reactor in a space where fighters weren't really meant to be shooting anything. I don't think the torpedoes were the problem with the attack run on Death Star 2, but rather why the shafts on the way to the reactor were big enough for TIEs, X-Wings, and the Falcon to fly through in the first place. The Rebels didn't have that luxury the first time, why would the Empire allow it to be so easy the second time around?

 

[Tawnos]

Well they shot at a reactor in a space where fighters weren't really meant to be shooting anything. I don't think the torpedoes were the problem with the attack run on Death Star 2, but rather why the shafts on the way to the reactor were big enough for TIEs, X-Wings, and the Falcon to fly through in the first place. The Rebels didn't have that luxury the first time, why would the Empire allow it to be so easy the second time around?

I always assumed that was mostly about the unfinished nature of the second Death Star when they attacked it. They’re used for construction crew access at that moment, then sealed off with the same armor as the rest of the station, and can be used for maintenance crew access from inside of the Death Star when completed. Those vulnerabilities are also why they had an impenetrable energy shield around it.

 

[Seedtype]

Well they shot at a reactor in a space where fighters weren't really meant to be shooting anything. I don't think the torpedoes were the problem with the attack run on Death Star 2, but rather why the shafts on the way to the reactor were big enough for TIEs, X-Wings, and the Falcon to fly through in the first place. The Rebels didn't have that luxury the first time, why would the Empire allow it to be so easy the second time around?

Oh, I was talking about in Rogue One with the battle over Scarif where the Y-Wings disabled a few Star Destroyers really easily(then those corvettes pushed the Destroyer into the other). Looks very cool, and it is clever. However, in video games terms I would call that OP. At least with the Ion Cannon from ESB it was a huge planetary based gun, and very limited in comparison.

However, I do agree the space inside the Death Star II stuff is a little silly, but remember it was supposed to be protected by a powerful shield generator. (The big problem is that teddy bears played a critical role in blowing up said generator)

 

[HanSolo]

I always assumed that was mostly about the unfinished nature of the second Death Star when they attacked it. They’re used for construction crew access at that moment, then sealed off with the same armor as the rest of the station, and can be used for maintenance crew access from inside of the Death Star when completed. Those vulnerabilities are also why they had an impenetrable energy shield around it.

I guess. Always read to me like plot convenience for a new method to achieve the same thing. I mean if they knew it was a flaw they could've lined the walls with temporary turrets until construction was complete. But then again that's not even a gripe that ever really registers for me. I have much bigger problems with RotJ than the Death Star run.

 

[HanSolo]

Oh, I was talking about in Rogue One with the battle over Scarif where the Y-Wings disabled a few Star Destroyers really easily(then those corvettes pushed the Destroyer into the other). Looks very cool, and it is clever. However, in video games terms I would call that OP. At least with the Ion Cannon from ESB it was a huge planetary based gun, and very limited in comparison.

However, I do agree the space inside the Death Star II stuff is a little silly, but remember it was supposed to be protected by a powerful shield generator. (The big problem is that teddy bears played a critical role in blowing up said generator)

Well it sure is one problem lol. But yeah I mean I wouldn't have a problem with Ewoks being in the movie but being so central to clowning the empire was silliness. I know they were going for a whole metaphor with it but it didn't play well.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I'm going to totally disregard your rant about Luke, because I don't agree with the characterization of the events in TLJ. That's overly covered ground.

To the broader point of the Star Wars and the EU and it's relation to the MCU here... this is what's crazy to me. Maybe it's that the SW fandom is different, or maybe it's a misunderstanding of the fandom (my preference is the latter), but you don't see Marvel fans super pissed off about the relatively major changes the MCU made to the Infinity Gauntlet storyline, especially the lack of inclusion of some major characters and the addition of other characters from the comics. I'm sure fans here and there complain, but they didn't riot or anything.

I do think the central problem is that they wanted to make a sequel trilogy, giving them the opportunity to tap into the still living iconic actors, but they didn't want to be tied to Jacen/Jaina/Anakin/Ben and the whole Yuuzhan Vong War (which is by far my least favorite thing the EU ever did, so I don't blame them). But there's plenty of other great things in the EU that they just threw out for just avoiding that, and it's a shame. Let's hope the new shows (however many of them actually get made) bring some of it back to life.

Fans of SW aren't rioting about Disney not following the EU either. And Marvel fans aren't rioting, not because there are vast differences between the fandoms, but because the marvel movies follow the recipe. You can tell any story you want if you follow the recipe. I'm sure most agree that the EU was not the right choice to put to screen. But the EU followed the SW recipe. The sequel movies did not. People aren't upset about disney not copying old stories, they're upset about them changing the recipe. And rightfully so. The same reason why Star Trek fans are upset about Discovery and Picard, and the JJ Abrams movies. It's not the reason why they started following star trek in the first place. It's not the story itself that's the problem, it's how it's done. For example, Star Trek was never about mindless action. The content that grew the fanbase was more cerebral. If you dumb it down and turn into action... you're doing it wrong. It's the opposite with star wars. Keep it simple. It's a freaking space western.

It would be like taking the four daughters of doctor March and turning it into an action movie with an alien invasion and gender swapping the daughters. Maybe some people would like to see that movie, but then it wouldn't really have anything to do with the original IP would it ? A lot of fans of the book and movie would be upset that what they're getting is something that's so wrong.

 

[Tawnos]

I guess. Always read to me like plot convenience for a new method to achieve the same thing. I mean if they knew it was a flaw they could've lined the walls with temporary turrets until construction was complete. But then again that's not even a gripe that ever really registers for me. I have much bigger problems with RotJ than the Death Star run.

What I'm saying is that those tunnels weren't considered a flaw at all, nor should they have been. It never would've been a problem, except the Empire was done in by their own arrogance... a mistake they didn't learn from after the first Death Star destruction. Blockade the Death Star with Star Destroyers and the Rebels never would've gotten through. But they just *had* to show off with it.

Also, line the walls with turrets? So the first time a turret misses what it's aiming at, it hits and destroys whatever's on the other side?

 

[Tawnos]

Fans of SW aren't rioting about Disney not following the EU either. And Marvel fans aren't rioting, not because there are vast differences between the fandoms, but because the marvel movies follow the recipe. You can tell any story you want if you follow the recipe. I'm sure most agree that the EU was not the right choice to put to screen. But the EU followed the SW recipe. The sequel movies did not. People aren't upset about disney not copying old stories, they're upset about them changing the recipe. And rightfully so. The same reason why Star Trek fans are upset about Discovery and Picard, and the JJ Abrams movies. It's not the reason why they started following star trek in the first place. It's not the story itself that's the problem, it's how it's done. For example, Star Trek was never about mindless action. The content that grew the fanbase was more cerebral. If you dumb it down and turn into action... you're doing it wrong. It's the opposite with star wars. Keep it simple. It's a freaking space western.

It would be like taking the four daughters of doctor March and turning it into an action movie with an alien invasion and gender swapping the daughters. Maybe some people would like to see that movie, but then it wouldn't really have anything to do with the original IP would it ? A lot of fans of the book and movie would be upset that what they're getting is something that's so wrong.

I didn't say that SW fans were pissed that Disney didn't follow the EU. What I said was that I don't think SW fans wouldn't have been pissed if they kept the overall structure of the EU, in terms of major characters and overall storylines, but made changes as needed for telling the stories the way they wanted to tell them. And I think that because we've seen that exact thing play out with Marvel fans and the MCU.

You believe that's only true if they followed the SW recipe. Personally, I believe that fans need to get over that kind of restrictive thinking. There should be room in the SW universe for more than one kind of storytelling. There's certainly room in the ST universe for it. In fact, one of the reasons that Star Trek fell out of favor for a while was because they couldn't break out of the recipe and it led to just doing the same thing over and over. TFA got criticism for the same thing, too. For me, it's no coincidence that my favorite movies of phase 2 and 3 of the MCU are the ones that changed the recipe up: Guardians of the Galaxy, Doctor Strange, Thor: Ragnarok, and Black Panther. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the MCU starts doing things differently, on purpose, like Feige says they're planning on doing.

 

[RandV]

I have no problem with Luke being disillusioned with the jedi order. I welcome it. I think it's a good idea. Where I part ways with TLJ is making Luke refuse to teach Rey, portraying him as someone who gave up on everyone and everything, making him weak (an untrained Rey easily defeating him while Rey was emotional, which was always something that was supposed to throw off jedis), the green milk thing (a little thing but just salt in the wound), making him not even inquire about his former friends.... And worst of all, him attempting to murder the son of his best friend and sister ? We're talking about Luke Skywalker here. The guy who put his life on the line to save his father who had clearly turned beyond evil and to the dark side. But when his nephew showed some inclinations toward the dark side he completely lost his shit ? Nope. sorry. None of that is right. If you're going to push that narrative you better explain it way better than TLJ did. That is just not star wars. Mark Hamilton was pissed off about all of it for a reason. It was really stupid and sad the way they treated the character. It's not even about being harsh, it was just straight up demeaning him in order to prop up Rey. The latter is my assumption since nothing else makes sense. Why buy an IP worth billions, and dump on the iconic hero of that IP ?

This also makes a good example for the stuff I like to gripe about, with the lack of creative direction and bigger picture from Kennedy and Johnson. I don't know if it meshes with books but in the broader EU this is where the Jedi Academy games were set, putting the player in the role of a padawan at Luke's new Jedi academy. It's a great insertion point for books/video games/animated series, but because of the producers lack of vision and handing creative control of one movie over to a guy who decided he wanted to "subvert expectations", that branch has been effectively pruned.

Someone replied to me about this on here a few days ago and I can sum it all up with a simple statement: where is the "EU" content generated for the ST?

 

[Tawnos]

Someone replied to me about this on here a few days ago and I can sum it all up with a simple statement: where is the "EU" content generated for the ST?

The focus for the ST era EU seems to be on comics more than anything. There have been like 100+ comic issues that take place in the ST era, not including the comic adaptations of the movies. Just a few novels, both adult and young adult. They did make Resistance, as well.

I'm wondering if we're going to start getting a bunch of post TRoS stuff happening before Rogue Squadron comes out.... which supposedly takes place in the "future era of the galaxy" and I interpret that as after the ST, though I could be wrong.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I didn't say that SW fans were pissed that Disney didn't follow the EU. What I said was that I don't think SW fans wouldn't have been pissed if they kept the overall structure of the EU, in terms of major characters and overall storylines, but made changes as needed for telling the stories the way they wanted to tell them. And I think that because we've seen that exact thing play out with Marvel fans and the MCU.

You believe that's only true if they followed the SW recipe. Personally, I believe that fans need to get over that kind of restrictive thinking. There should be room in the SW universe for more than one kind of storytelling. There's certainly room in the ST universe for it. In fact, one of the reasons that Star Trek fell out of favor for a while was because they couldn't break out of the recipe and it led to just doing the same thing over and over. TFA got criticism for the same thing, too. For me, it's no coincidence that my favorite movies of phase 2 and 3 of the MCU are the ones that changed the recipe up: Guardians of the Galaxy, Doctor Strange, Thor: Ragnarok, and Black Panther. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the MCU starts doing things differently, on purpose, like Feige says they're planning on doing.

I don't think that Guardians of the galaxy, Doctor Strange, Thor: Ragnarok or Black panther changed the recipe. Guardians of the galaxy felt special because it was the first movie where the action was mostly on other planets. Doctor Strange introduced the magic component to the marvel cinematic universe.. but that was always part of it and didn't come as a shock to fans. Black Panther ? How did it change the recipe ? It was exactly the same as all other marvel movies except with black people ? I mean Black Panther changed the recipe as much as say Captain Marvel did. The one movie where I would want to agree with you would be Thor: Ragnarok but even then... it stayed true to the characters and the rules of the universe. When I'm talking about recipe it's not what I'm talking about. And it's actually kind of hard to define exactly, but it's what makes something tick, the key ingredients to have a story that feels like the source material. For example the 2004 movie Van Helsing with Hugh Jackman. That was a mindless action flick which followed none of the source material recipe (Frankenstein, Dracula, etc). God knows Frankenstein and Dracula have been done a million times in every format. But did it need that kind of take to keep things ''fresh'' ? Feige knows how to spice things up without changing the nature of the source material.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

This also makes a good example for the stuff I like to gripe about, with the lack of creative direction and bigger picture from Kennedy and Johnson. I don't know if it meshes with books but in the broader EU this is where the Jedi Academy games were set, putting the player in the role of a padawan at Luke's new Jedi academy. It's a great insertion point for books/video games/animated series, but because of the producers lack of vision and handing creative control of one movie over to a guy who decided he wanted to "subvert expectations", that branch has been effectively pruned.

Someone replied to me about this on here a few days ago and I can sum it all up with a simple statement: where is the "EU" content generated for the ST?

Rey's jedi academy..........sigh.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I'm wondering if we're going to start getting a bunch of post TRoS stuff happening before Rogue Squadron comes out.... which supposedly takes place in the "future era of the galaxy" and I interpret that as after the ST, though I could be wrong.

I always disagreed with the choice Lucas made to do the PT instead of a sequel to Luke's story. I hate prequels...

I hope they move on and do something new, fresh and original. The above sounds nice.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't think that Guardians of the galaxy, Doctor Strange, Thor: Ragnarok or Black panther changed the recipe. Guardians of the galaxy felt special because it was the first movie where the action was mostly on other planets. Doctor Strange introduced the magic component to the marvel cinematic universe.. but that was always part of it and didn't come as a shock to fans. Black Panther ? How did it change the recipe ? It was exactly the same as all other marvel movies except with black people ? I mean Black Panther changed the recipe as much as say Captain Marvel did. The one movie where I would want to agree with you would be Thor: Ragnarok but even then... it stayed true to the characters and the rules of the universe. When I'm talking about recipe it's not what I'm talking about. And it's actually kind of hard to define exactly, but it's what makes something tick, the key ingredients to have a story that feels like the source material. For example the 2004 movie Van Helsing with Hugh Jackman. That was a mindless action flick which followed none of the source material recipe (Frankenstein, Dracula, etc). God knows Frankenstein and Dracula have been done a million times in every format. But did it need that kind of take to keep things ''fresh'' ? Feige knows how to spice things up without changing the nature of the source material.

Guardians of the Galaxy is a movie told through the lens of music, which makes it unlike any other MCU movie. The sequel tried, and largely failed, to do the same. Doctor Strange was the first Marvel movie that wasn't about punching your way through your problems, to one degree or another. Edit: actually, maybe it wasn't. I forgot that Ant-Man came out first, which was also one of the better movies of phases 2 and 3. Black Panther is about how culture and tradition shape an entire society in the way no other MCU movie is. It wasn't exactly the same as all other Marvel movies. Not even remotely. And that's not to say that other MCU movies don't have their own moralistic lessons. Civil War is about the cost of war and the meaning of patriotism, for example. The thing is, so were other MCU movies.

I can see what you mean about how these movies still follow an MCU recipe, but I just think they're told in a very different way, from a different perspective. When you start talking about source material, though, you start running into a different problem with SW and ST franchises. Mainly, it's that this isn't a situation were existing stories can be tweaked and re-told in a new way. SW didn't have to be that way (as I think we're all lamenting) because it had the rich EU to draw from. Both franchises need to come up with totally new material. Recipes don't work quite as well in that situation.

I think, ultimately, Star Wars just needs to put out a bunch more quality content. The more content that's out there, the less people will complain if there's a dud. MCU fans don't complain about Age of Ultron or The Dark World on end simply because there are enough good movies that it doesn't matter that there are duds here or there.