Disney Star Wars General Discussion

[ArGarBarGar]

The RO space battle was the one thing in that movie I thought was really good.

The rest did not work all that well (went from decent to completely mediocre). The plot wasn't necessary (as far as using it to explain why the Death Star had a vent), the characters were unremarkable and had very little to zero development, the first section of the movie drags, and Vader's inclusion did not serve the story well.

I know people love to talk about how much they love the Vader hallway scene, but it felt so tacked on that it didn't really need to be there at all.

 

[MadDevil]

Rogue One felt the most "Star Warsy" of all the films to me, but that may be because of how directly it ties into the OT, so it kind of has to. The Vader hallway scene was unnecessary, but it was so damn cool that I had no problem with it.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Rogue One felt the most "Star Warsy" of all the films to me, but that may be because of how directly it ties into the OT, so it kind of has to. The Vader hallway scene was unnecessary, but it was so damn cool that I had no problem with it.

I think the scene with Vader in the hallway had to be done to show he would not have just let the Rebels escape with the Death Star plans.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I honestly wouldn’t have cared much about RO without Vader, especially his final scene laying waste to everyone in his path.

Vader is an almost impossible villain to create these days, so I doubt I’ll ever stop having nostalgia for him.

Not giving fan service and creating those scenes for Vader in RO, would have been a pretty big slap in the face to most original Star Wars fans IMHO.

 

[Osprey]

From the Mandalorian thread:

I misworded that. What I meant was that the outcry about TLJ is directly responsible for what Abrams gave us, not for Abrams involvement. Snoke being a puppet was absolutely a response to fans being pissed at what happened to him in TLJ. Yes, Abrams needed a new villain, but if that villain was pulling Snoke's strings, you couldn't plausibly do that with just anyone. It's essentially a retcon and one that directly addressed something that pissed fans off. Also, the existence of Jannah is entirely a result of the hate that Rose's character got, by basically pulling back from what Rose's role would've likely been had response to her been different. There are more examples of this kind of thing.

Snoke wasn't made a puppet because fans were upset that he was killed off. He was made a puppet because Abrams needed a new, scarier villain (thanks to Johnson killing off his original villain) and the easiest way to establish how scary and in control the new guy is is to pretend that he was always the previous villain's boss. As you suggested, not just anyone could plausibly pull Snoke's strings, so the new villain being Palpatine made sense to Abrams. Whether the fans liked Snoke being killed or not, Abrams would've still faced a problem of who the villain would be and likely arrived at the same thing. Put another way, Abrams reacted to the same thing that the fans reacted to, not to the fans' reaction.

Regarding Jannah, she's so far down on the list of problems that people have with TRoS that she's hardly ever mentioned and I had to google her just to know what character you were talking about. Besides, she replaced an unpopular character, so she doesn't support the notion that the fans got something worse because they complained.

All I'm saying is that you can't totally separate what we got with TRoS from the reaction to TLJ.

That's true, but that doesn't mean that the fans are to blame for what they got in TRoS. TLJ deserved its criticisms and it shouldn't have been that hard to make a better movie that the fans would've been happier with, yet Abrams managed to bungle it horribly, anyways. That's on him (and Johnson), not the fans.

 

[Shockmaster]

Rogue One felt the most "Star Warsy" of all the films to me, but that may be because of how directly it ties into the OT, so it kind of has to. The Vader hallway scene was unnecessary, but it was so damn cool that I had no problem with it.

IMO, Rogue One is the best Star Wars film Disney has made thus far. Though that's more of an indictment of their other Star Wars films.

 

[Shockmaster]

That's true, but that doesn't mean that the fans are to blame for what they got in TRoS. That'd be like saying that fans who criticize their hockey team for being too soft are to blame when their GM listens and loads the team up with bruisers who have no speed or skill. TLJ is a very flawed movie and it shouldn't have been that hard to make a better one that the fans would be happier with, yet Abrams somehow bungled it horribly, anyways. That's on him (and Johnson), not the fans.

Not sure there was much hope for Episode IX given how TLJ ended and how Johnson simply didn't care about what was going to come after.

 

[Osprey]

Not sure there was much hope for Episode IX given how TLJ ended and how Johnson simply didn't care about what was going to come after.

There wasn't much hope for a good movie, but it could've been better than it was. For example, just about any other writer/director wouldn't have relied as heavily on MacGuffins (the Wayfinders and Sith dagger) as Abrams did. There are many stupid things like that in the movie that are not Johnson's fault and that I think that a better writer/director (like Favreau or Filoni) wouldn't have resorted to.

 

[Shockmaster]

There wasn't much hope for a good movie, but it could've been better than it was. For example, just about any other writer/director wouldn't have relied as heavily on MacGuffins (the Wayfinders and Sith dagger) as Abrams did. There are many stupid things like that in the movie that are not Johnson's fault and that I think that a better writer/director (like Favreau or Filoni) wouldn't have resorted to.

It goes back to the main problem with the sequel trilogy - there was never a plan in place.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Not sure there was much hope for Episode IX given how TLJ ended and how Johnson simply didn't care about what was going to come after.

How did TLJ end that made it so difficult to write a good final movie?

 

[MadDevil]

Killing off the "big bad" in the second movie in a trilogy doesn't help, but that doesn't mean there was nothing to carry on if Abrams had chosen. Instead he decided to basically "play the hits" by bringing Palpatine back, bringing Lando back, and having a ROTJ like end battle. It made it feel like TFA and TROS were part of one trilogy and TLJ part of another. Not that the reaction probably would have been any better if they had actually steered into TLJ instead.

 

[Shockmaster]

Killing off the "big bad" in the second movie in a trilogy doesn't help, but that doesn't mean there was nothing to carry on if Abrams had chosen. Instead he decided to basically "play the hits" by bringing Palpatine back, bringing Lando back, and having a ROTJ like end battle. It made it feel like TFA and TROS were part of one trilogy and TLJ part of another. Not that the reaction probably would have been any better if they had actually steered into TLJ instead.

That just circles back to the original problem with this trilogy - no plan.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Killing off the "big bad" in the second movie in a trilogy doesn't help, but that doesn't mean there was nothing to carry on if Abrams had chosen. Instead he decided to basically "play the hits" by bringing Palpatine back, bringing Lando back, and having a ROTJ like end battle. It made it feel like TFA and TROS were part of one trilogy and TLJ part of another. Not that the reaction probably would have been any better if they had actually steered into TLJ instead.

Isn't that kind of like how in Episode I when we see Qui-Gon get killed, even though we know that Obi-Wan becomes Anakin's master. However because that happened it leads to speculation wondering if Anakin turns to the Dark Side if Qui-Gon is teaching him instead of Obi-Wan.

 

[Tawnos]

From the Mandalorian thread:


Snoke wasn't made a puppet because fans were upset that he was killed off. He was made a puppet because Abrams needed a new, scarier villain (thanks to Johnson killing off his original villain) and the easiest way to establish how scary and in control the new guy is is to pretend that he was always the previous villain's boss. As you suggested, not just anyone could plausibly pull Snoke's strings, so the new villain being Palpatine made sense to Abrams. Whether the fans liked Snoke being killed or not, Abrams would've still faced a problem of who the villain would be and likely arrived at the same thing. Put another way, Abrams reacted to the same thing that the fans reacted to, not to the fans' reaction.

Regarding Jannah, she's so far down on the list of problems that people have with TRoS that she's hardly ever mentioned and I had to google her just to know what character you were talking about. Besides, she replaced an unpopular character, so she doesn't support the notion that the fans got something worse because they complained.



That's true, but that doesn't mean that the fans are to blame for what they got in TRoS. TLJ deserved its criticisms and it shouldn't have been that hard to make a better movie that the fans would've been happier with, yet Abrams managed to bungle it horribly, anyways. That's on him (and Johnson), not the fans.

I agree, it's on him. Saying so doesn't really dispute the point I'm making though. It should have been possible to respond to those criticisms and put out a better product than they did, but that doesn't mean that the criticisms weren't one driving factor of many in the creative decisions that were made. That's all I'm saying. Either way, we're in a bit of a logical cul-de-sac here. At this point, it doesn't matter either way.

 

[Tawnos]

Killing off the "big bad" in the second movie in a trilogy doesn't help, but that doesn't mean there was nothing to carry on if Abrams had chosen. Instead he decided to basically "play the hits" by bringing Palpatine back, bringing Lando back, and having a ROTJ like end battle. It made it feel like TFA and TROS were part of one trilogy and TLJ part of another. Not that the reaction probably would have been any better if they had actually steered into TLJ instead.

Maybe, had they steered into TLJ, they wouldn't have used a big bad for the final movie. That wouldn't be very Star Wars-like though.

 

[MadDevil]

Maybe, had they steered into TLJ, they wouldn't have used a big bad for the final movie. That wouldn't be very Star Wars-like though.

They could have had the apprentice who helped slay his master become the new Supreme Leader and big bad of the final film. Although that would assume people would actually take Kylo Ren seriously as such, which given how some people felt he was just an Anakin/Vader wannabe may not have worked any better. It at least would have felt connected to the first two films though, rather than just "Oh hey, it was Palpatine all along!".

 

[Tawnos]

They could have had the apprentice who helped slay his master become the new Supreme Leader and big bad of the final film. Although that would assume people would actually take Kylo Ren seriously as such, which given how some people felt he was just an Anakin/Vader wannabe may not have worked any better. It at least would have felt connected to the first two films though, rather than just "Oh hey, it was Palpatine all along!".

That disconnect is definitely an issue. They did leave things open to bring forward a different kind of narrative conflict as the central story after TLJ. It probably would've been a better route to go, but hard for Star Wars.

 

[Osprey]

They could have had the apprentice who helped slay his master become the new Supreme Leader and big bad of the final film. Although that would assume people would actually take Kylo Ren seriously as such, which given how some people felt he was just an Anakin/Vader wannabe may not have worked any better. It at least would have felt connected to the first two films though, rather than just "Oh hey, it was Palpatine all along!".

I was wondering the other day whether it could've worked to have kept the "Snoke is a clone" concept, but made the puppet master the real, original Snoke. He could've cloned himself so that he could have a trustworthy puppet and stay safe in an undisclosed location (like Palpatine) while the clone risked his neck. After all, because Palpatine was betrayed by his second in command (Vader) 30 years ago, Snoke could've been fearful that his own second in command might turn on him. Why put himself into a position to be killed by Kylo Ren when he could put a clone of himself there, instead? If Kylo were to kill the clone, then that would prove to him that Kylo is an enemy. This would seemingly help explain why Snoke put himself in a vulnerable position (besides just pure arrogance) and why Kylo joined Rey in the end.

Also, it could be explained that the holograms of Snoke that we saw in TFA were the real Snoke giving Kylo orders from his secret location. That would help it to appear that the villain in TRoS was in the trilogy from the beginning. TFA's Snoke was a lot more intimidating than TLJ's Snoke, and the idea that the former was the real one and the latter was the clone might explain that, too. TLJ's weakling Snoke being revealed to be a decoy and not the real Snoke would've helped to "correct" TLJ and give us back the menacing Snoke that we were intrigued by in TFA.

Anyways, it's admittedly still a goofy idea, but I wonder if it would've at least been better than making the puppet master a character who wasn't in the first two movies at all and who had been dead for 30 years.

 

[Tawnos]

I was wondering the other day whether it could've worked to have kept the "Snoke is a clone" concept, but made the puppet master the real, original Snoke. He could've cloned himself so that he could have a trustworthy puppet and stay safe in an undisclosed location (like Palpatine) while the clone risked his neck. After all, because Palpatine was betrayed by his second in command (Vader) 30 years ago, Snoke could've been fearful that his own second in command might turn on him. Why put himself into a position to be killed by Kylo Ren when he could put a clone of himself there, instead? If Kylo were to kill the clone, then that would prove to him that Kylo is an enemy. This would seemingly help explain why Snoke put himself in a vulnerable position (besides just pure arrogance) and why Kylo joined Rey in the end.

Also, it could've been explained that the holograms of Snoke that we saw in TFA were the real Snoke giving Kylo orders from his secret location. That would help it to appear that the villain in TRoS was the real villain from the start of the trilogy. TFA's Snoke was a lot more intimidating than TLJ's Snoke, and the idea that the former was the real one and the latter was the clone might explain that, too. TLJ's weakling Snoke being revealed to be a decoy and not the real Snoke would've helped to "correct" TLJ and give us back the menacing Snoke that we were intrigued with in TFA.

Anyways, it's admittedly still a goofy idea, but I wonder if it would've at least been better than making the puppet master a character who wasn't in the first two movies at all and who had been dead for 30 years.

Basically a dark side twist on what Padme did in Eps 1 & 2.

 

[Osprey]

Basically a dark side twist on what Padme did in Eps 1 & 2.

I didn't think about that. That's a good point and serves as a precedent in the universe.

 

[x Tame Impala]

From the Mandalorian thread:


Snoke wasn't made a puppet because fans were upset that he was killed off. He was made a puppet because Abrams needed a new, scarier villain (thanks to Johnson killing off his original villain) and the easiest way to establish how scary and in control the new guy is is to pretend that he was always the previous villain's boss. As you suggested, not just anyone could plausibly pull Snoke's strings, so the new villain being Palpatine made sense to Abrams. Whether the fans liked Snoke being killed or not, Abrams would've still faced a problem of who the villain would be and likely arrived at the same thing. Put another way, Abrams reacted to the same thing that the fans reacted to, not to the fans' reaction.

Regarding Jannah, she's so far down on the list of problems that people have with TRoS that she's hardly ever mentioned and I had to google her just to know what character you were talking about. Besides, she replaced an unpopular character, so she doesn't support the notion that the fans got something worse because they complained.



That's true, but that doesn't mean that the fans are to blame for what they got in TRoS. TLJ deserved its criticisms and it shouldn't have been that hard to make a better movie that the fans would've been happier with, yet Abrams managed to bungle it horribly, anyways. That's on him (and Johnson), not the fans.

I agree with the notion you can’t blame the fans for what JJ did with RoS, but JJ wasn’t stuck in a corner that only Palpatine could get him out of. He could’ve done something along then lines of having Kylo being front and center now that Snoke is out of the picture. Him grappling with his absolute power and moral compass from his old life would’ve been way more compelling than what we got. That hollow, Rey + Kylo Force duality, with Palpatine magically still around was so desperate. I expected that from a Saturday morning cartoon and it was disappointing to see the trilogy end that way.

Regardless of what you think of RJ’s work with TLJ (and I still think it was a total mess), it doesn’t excuse JJ giving us such an uninspired ending to the trilogy.

At this point, we’ve just got to accept that ultimately the divide caused by TLJ doesn’t matter. Half the people loved it, the other half didn’t. The real problem was the lack of a consistent story for the trilogy as a whole. All problems stem from that.

 

[Shockmaster]

Tom Kane, who did Yoda's voice in The Clone Wars apparently had a stroke in November that may likely end his voice acting career:

‘Star Wars’ & ‘Archer’ Voice Artist Tom Kane Suffers Stroke – Deadline

 

[Shockmaster]

"For control of the force itself" doesn't sound very Jedi-like.

 

[Osprey]

Some good rumors:

The Mandalorian and Favreau/Filoni's Universe to Replace Sequel Trilogy Characters in Galaxy's Edge?

Summary:

• Kennedy's side has lost and her loyalists are leaking rumors as their ship sinks.
• Disney is supporting Favreau and Filoni in their plan to take Star Wars in a different, MCU-like direction.
• Favreau and Filoni report directly to Iger, not to Kennedy, who will be kept away from Star Wars projects.
• Their "plan is to revere George Lucas, restore the original characters back to glory, tell an engaging saga that crescendos with a battle against Thrawn, all while preparing to fix the problems of the sequel trilogy."
• Disney was originally going to make Galaxy's Edge a unified SW experience that incorporated elements of all three trilogies. Kennedy convinced them to make it ST only.
• Disney is now considering replacing some of Galaxy's Edge attractions with ones from The Mandalorian because visitors want to see characters like Mando, Ahsoka, Grogu and Luke, not Rey and Ren.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

"For control of the force itself" doesn't sound very Jedi-like.

Sounds quite sithy to me.