Joseph has many good qualities and in no way am I saying he is useless. We can disagree on who is more valuable to the Senators between Joseph and Paul. At this point in the team's evolution I'd rather have Paul.
Discussion: Is there a team culture problem with this group?
- Thread starter JungleBeat
- Start date
Losing creates a bad culture all by itself and this team has done a ton of losing. If you have hope that things will improve it's a lot easier to handle, but I can't see how someone like Chabot could have much confidence that this ship is going to get turned around any time soon.
I think 99% of athletes want to win, but at a certain point you can't constantly beat yourself up over it because you'll go insane when it's been like 7 years of failure. At some point you have to focus on your own game and stop caring, because it's largely outside your control as a single player. And at that point I do think they stop trying as hard, mainly for self preservation. Sad, but true.
It's a chicken and egg scenario at this point. They need to win to change the culture, but the losing has made it harder to win.
I think the hope is that enough changes are made to actually instill some hope, get some consistent success and slowly drag the culture out of the swamp.
This is more an organizational/management failure IMO than the individual players. Anyone who has worked a job where you can't succeed because your boss is a moron can understand this. That said, you still might need to get rid of some guys to wash the stink off. I don't think they are to blame, but if you can retool minus a Norris, Batherson, Brannstrom, even Chabot, that might help shake things up. I'd expect those guys to have success on other teams. Speaking of getting the stink off, the sooner the goalies/Hamonic are gone, the better.
New management, new coaches, some new players, hopefully that changes things.
I do think these 8 year contracts are absurd and don't help, but they are hard to avoid. It'd be great if the maximum length of a contract was 5 years.
I think 99% of athletes want to win, but at a certain point you can't constantly beat yourself up over it because you'll go insane when it's been like 7 years of failure. At some point you have to focus on your own game and stop caring, because it's largely outside your control as a single player. And at that point I do think they stop trying as hard, mainly for self preservation. Sad, but true.
It's a chicken and egg scenario at this point. They need to win to change the culture, but the losing has made it harder to win.
I think the hope is that enough changes are made to actually instill some hope, get some consistent success and slowly drag the culture out of the swamp.
This is more an organizational/management failure IMO than the individual players. Anyone who has worked a job where you can't succeed because your boss is a moron can understand this. That said, you still might need to get rid of some guys to wash the stink off. I don't think they are to blame, but if you can retool minus a Norris, Batherson, Brannstrom, even Chabot, that might help shake things up. I'd expect those guys to have success on other teams. Speaking of getting the stink off, the sooner the goalies/Hamonic are gone, the better.
New management, new coaches, some new players, hopefully that changes things.
I do think these 8 year contracts are absurd and don't help, but they are hard to avoid. It'd be great if the maximum length of a contract was 5 years.
BondraTime
Registered User
Not sure I'd take Paul back if he was offered to us for a 3rd round pick
He's looked quite bad in Tampa this year, and he's definitely not getting a dozen+ PP points on the Sens to make the statline look better, not playing PK, etc. Not sure there is a role on the Sens
DanyHeatley
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- Dec 6, 2016
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Too young of a group, born and bred in a losing culture
Too comfortable with loosing
High sense of entitlement (young core already been rewarded $$$ before earned)
No sense of accountability
Needs more veteran presence
Inconsistent goalies
Too comfortable with loosing
High sense of entitlement (young core already been rewarded $$$ before earned)
No sense of accountability
Needs more veteran presence
Inconsistent goalies
Beech
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- Nov 25, 2020
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the 8 year contracts were us.. we caused them.
We got angry at the team and felt they were not listening to us and not giving us our heroes.. sports heroes.
So they went, here you go.. now rush in and pack the place.
We did the damage.. as did Calgary fans to their team.. Fans need to be careful of hero worship of athletes..
Thought he was fine in the games i've watched. Gonna be a 20-20 guy this year which is very good for a 3.1 mil salary. That being said, I wouldn't want his contract (even with his declining salary - frontloaded) because it's too long.
Larionov
Registered User
The owners created this problem when they insisted on the maximum eight year deal in the CBA. They were trying to get rid of the crazy long term deals, I know, but as anyone who has done any negotiation will know every ceiling becomes a floor. In other words, when you tell the players that eight years is the maximum term, everyone wants eight years. They traded one problem (the crazy long term deal, which was relatively rare) for a new one (a rash of eight year deals for guys who frankly don't deserve them.)
BondraTime
Registered User
Oh I could just as likely, probably even more, be wrong. Just what I personally think
Larionov
Registered User
I agree with this also. I didn't play pro, but I have played a ton of competitive sports in my life and I think that "culture" and "chemistry" are vastly overrated. It's funny how the happiest teams I ever played on were the ones that won a bunch. The unhappiest were the losing teams. Funny how that works. If you win, no one cares who is going out for dinner with the boys and who prefers to do their own thing. When you are losing, that becomes an issue because everyone has to blame the losing on something other than, "We weren't good enough". Want to create a better team culture? Go win some freaking games - I promise that the mood on the bus, on the plane and in the room improves instantly...
Relapsing
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- Jul 3, 2018
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Wat.
This is utter nonsense. "we" didn't offer the contracts. "we" didn't start this trend of shifting big money contracts from the end of player careers to the start. "we" ultimately have zero agency as to what this or any other teams management does wrt the players they sign, for how much, and for how long.
At best, you could say that fans in Ottawa set an expectation of success. "we" didn't have any input as to how management went about f***ing up that.
If you feel responsible for this then fine. But leave the rest of us out of it. You're on your own.
Culture problem? YEARS of mismanagement and budget-friendly "leadership". Melnyk did this. He wasn't very apt at being an owner anymore. This bad leadership had a trickle-down effect all the way to the ice, and seems like some of our players have grown used to losing to the point where their will to compete is gone, or at least very inconsistent. Wouldn't be surprised if our untouchable core players end being not so untouchable if they're too attached to the old ways.
Unpopular opinion: might not be a bad idea to trade one of our core players to shake things up and make these guys realize that there is no "I" in team.
Unpopular opinion: might not be a bad idea to trade one of our core players to shake things up and make these guys realize that there is no "I" in team.
Norris4Norris
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- Jul 13, 2022
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I think the only untouchables are Stutzle, Sanderson and Tkachuk.
I imagine Staios has been fielding a lot of trade calls because of how bad the team is. If he really is a savvy GM he might have figured out that a couple of his players are being overvalued by other GM's in the league.
Agent Zuuuub
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- Jan 2, 2015
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People blame management and coaching too much.
This team has enough talent that they can win, this team has looked like world beaters.
They just aren't consistent and that's not because of management or coaching. That's a players responsibility.
But being consistent is hard, and these players don't like doing hard things.
This team has enough talent that they can win, this team has looked like world beaters.
They just aren't consistent and that's not because of management or coaching. That's a players responsibility.
But being consistent is hard, and these players don't like doing hard things.
In fact, the problem is pervasive. The players are responsible for the situation we're in, and so is management. There is a disconnect somewhere. They need a corporate retreat.
I was looking back at the time of the trade. Big body, good faceoff if I recall.
I'd still take him now for a third. Cup winner, etc. The characteristics SS seems to want.
I honestly wonder if some sens fans are just too young to remember the great playoff hockey that was in Ottawa
Nothing beats it. Even if your team loses that atmosphere around the city and games was next level
I definitly rather be the leafs right now. they have elite talent and can actually make meaningful roster changes if they chose
Nothing beats it. Even if your team loses that atmosphere around the city and games was next level
I definitly rather be the leafs right now. they have elite talent and can actually make meaningful roster changes if they chose
Beech
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Think back, 2011 with Fisher et all being dealt.
2017, the whole Zib. exodus
the Karlsson fiasco... a town hall meeting????????
the Stone departure.
By 2018 fans were beside themselves. Seeing Melnyk as a cheap bastard, not willing to spend. Perfectly willing to ship off anyone who wanted more than minimum wage.
"Melnyk OUT".. empty building...
So, along comes Chabot and White, fans are edgy.. One gets an 8 year,, the other a 5.. Over the next 2 years, Batherson, Tkatchuk, Norris, Stuzzle. If they had not, we would have screamed "there you go.. they are being cheap again" " now these guys will be gone, etc.". All to make sure we are calm and happy and repack the place.
They gave us what we wanted.
Our anger should have been at him from a different perspective. One that did not scream "hang on to our favorites"..
when people scream "I will never watch them again, they traded away my favorite player, XXXXXX". All that does is force the issue.
Calgary fans and their moronic inferiority complex.. That led to Huberdeau's contract, Kadri, Weager, etc. I will never forget Duhatck's quivering voice as he asked Huberdeau if he will sign to stay in Calgary.... Huibie's agent must still be pissing in his pants with joy... It meant 2 extra years and 2 extra million a year.
That is how we and Calgary caused the 8 x Y contracts.. We were angry, Calgary was quivering in fear.
Now we are angry in the opposite sense. So no 8 x Y for Pinto or Greig. In fact, there will be nothing more than 5 x Y for the next 5-10 years. Until the cycle repeats itself in 10-12 years.
IT WAS INSANE to have a town hall on Karlsson.. It was insane to see the uproar. All it did was ensure that the Chabot, Norris, White, Tkachuk, Batherson, Stuzzle, Sanderson clans will live happily for the next 5 generation's.
They need to have a toast in our honour for the next 200 years.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
Calgary's ownership has been so opposed to a rebuild that management had to walk back the word in camp this year in joking fashion. If anything, Calgary fans were clamoring for a proper rebuild more than the team wanted to go there.
And as bad as the Huberdeau contract is, he was like 4th in league scoring over a 5 year period or something. There was a track record. It was more of a Jack Campbell than a Joonas Korpisalo. He had the track record on paper and completely cratered. At least Weegar is a steal, even at his new price.
Relapsing
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Well that was a firehose of a response filled with subjective historical takes and future predictions with a level of surety I'd only expect from the Oracle of Delphi.
What you see as fans influence, I see as the actions two desperate, shortsighted, incompetent and misguided men.
I refuse to fall into the trap of refuting every point when presented with such a bloviated reply, but I will say this: whatever agency you think fans have on the course of a franchise, not a single one of us (or the collective we for that matter) had the level of influence required to convince anyone in Sens management to make the terrible decisions they did over the last decade. Those were choices based purely of their own incompetence, greed, arrogance and short sightedness. We didn't draft those contracts. We didn't trade those players. We didn't start the league wide trend of signing young players to full term contracts they had yet to earn.
Norris4Norris
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Relapsing
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You bastard!Speak for yourself!
I single handedly destroyed the Ottawa Senators!!!!
Tnuoc Alucard
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Actions speak louder than words.
When anything that could be remotely interpreted, even an innocuous slightly negative comment, the SS defenders jump into action.
Tuna99
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- Sep 26, 2009
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give the guy a chance dude, if he makes a bad trade I’ll be here to call it out.
because you liked Dorion and amelnyck doesn’t mean you have to dislike Staois. You don’t have to die on that hill alone
Tnuoc Alucard
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Again, putting words into my mouth to fit your narrative…. Did not like PD or EM, I tolerated them, as until they departed the organization we were stuck with them, and no amount of whining a complaining was going to change that…waste of time.
perhaps you’ll get your chance this week, as SS has not made a trade of any kind…. He’s had “a chance” and now it’s time to start down the road of fixing what he and management have seen all season.
