Value of: Difference in value between William Nylander and Brett Pesce

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I'm sure you would want Turbo with Pesce but I'm not sure you can afford it, and I mean that in terms of the Cap. Pesce+Teravainen would bring in $9.5m in cap and Nylander is only $7m right now. You're already $8m over the cap, I don't think you can make this work.

Yes we can rather easily.

Muzzin is going on LTIR that's 5.6 right there.

Murray is getting traded or LTIR'd or potentially bought out if Samsonov files for arbitration.

That's another 4-4.6 right there.

We are now at between 9.6-10.2 depending on how Murray leaves.

Then we get to Timmins and Lafferty

Now if I'm right and Lilly is part of a potential Toronto/Carolina trade then Timmins is #7.

If I were wrong and Lilly wasn't in a potential Toronto/Carolina trade Timmins is #8

Regardless he doesn't have a spot on this teams top 6.

He's out, and if he's not then Lafferty is.

This trade would be doable That 8.8 over the cap that's fake, it's not real.

 

[McSuper]

Been lots of speculation around these 2 player and it seems like a natural fit if negotiations go south for both players so...

what would the difference in value be between Nylander and Pesce?

As a rule a defence man is worth more and even more so being RHD. I prefer a D over a winger but defensive D men just don't seem to have the value across the NHL. Base on how the NHL view defensive D and say Nylander has more value. Like maybe a 2nd

Nylander is an elite offensive player trending upward who is better than anyone on your team. You don't get those guys for nothing.

Pesce is a middle pairing D man. You would have to add to pry away Nylander. Plus you need to create more cap room anyway.

The first high lighted part just isn't close to being true. Aho is better.

The 2nd part also isn't true but depending on the teams D he could be on a 2nd pairing altho that doesn't make him a 2nd pairing. Is Draisaitl a 2C ? No but if he is playing centre in Edmonton he will always be behind McDavid.

Pesce would be TML best RHD and there no arguing about that.

 

[shortfuze]

i reserve judgement of this until i see the numbers on the extension


marleau to the canes?

I guess you missed the part where I said in most situations? And there’s a massive difference between Nylander and Marleau.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Would be interested who you think the “depth guys” on the canes d are? Chat and TDA? Because they’re literally the third pair.

A few canes fans have already explained to you why they have no interest in Brodie but you want to keep pushing ahead like you know better.

LOL. TJ Brodie, who is 33, and considerably worse than all of Slavin, Burns, Orlov, Skjei, Pesce, is the difference maker we need on the back end. I probably even take Chatfield over him at this point. Dude was also pretty bad this playoffs for the Leafs if I remember correctly.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Yes we can rather easily.

Muzzin is going on LTIR that's 5.6 right there.

Murray is getting traded or LTIR'd or potentially bought out if Samsonov files for arbitration.

That's another 4-4.6 right there.

We are now at between 9.6-10.2 depending on how Murray leaves.

Then we get to Timmins and Lafferty

Now if I'm right and Lilly is part of a potential Toronto/Carolina trade then Timmins is #7.

If I were wrong and Lilly wasn't in a potential Toronto/Carolina trade Timmins is #8

Regardless he doesn't have a spot on this teams top 6.

He's out, and if he's not then Lafferty is.

This trade would be doable That 8.8 over the cap that's fake, it's not real.

Got no problem with putting TT in a trade along with Pesce, but the question is what piece(s) are you sending over with Nylander? We would ask for Knies, and I don't see another player on the Leafs who the Canes would want that would be realistically available. Not saying Knies is available, but obviously we aren't talking about guys in Matthews, Marner, Rielly, tier.

If Knies isn't an option then it's gonna be some good picks.

 

[Vitto79]

Uhhh what depth guys? Slavin, Burns, Pesce, Orlov are better than Brodie so if we move out Pesce our top 4 is still rock solid. Chatfield and TDA on the 3rd pair. All good.

Ooopsie didn’t count right . It’s hard to get to 5

It is pretty deep so I guess they could get away with not taking anyone back on D

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Ooopsie didn’t count right . It’s hard to get to 5

It is pretty deep so I guess they could get away with not taking anyone back on D

My bad in forgetting to add Skjei in that list... he was supposed to be in there.

As is we have 5 D who are better than Brodie for sure, no questions asked and then we also have Chatfield who had a better season than Brodie last year. Other than Burns, all of these guys are younger than Brodie by anywhere from 2-6 years.

Slavin
Burns
Skjei
Pesce
Orlov
-----
Brodie =< Chatfield

There's just really no reason at all for Carolina to be looking for a defenseman in return in any Pesce trade.

 

[RoadWarrior]

That does nothing to address your point that is being contested. Slavin would NOT be traded even if EK were acquired.

Sure Nostradamus. You seem to be consistently overvaluing your players. Where are Slavin’s Norris trophies? Because I seem to remember EK getting some.

 

[RoadWarrior]

As a rule a defence man is worth more and even more so being RHD. I prefer a D over a winger but defensive D men just don't seem to have the value across the NHL. Base on how the NHL view defensive D and say Nylander has more value. Like maybe a 2nd


The first high lighted part just isn't close to being true. Aho is better.

The 2nd part also isn't true but depending on the teams D he could be on a 2nd pairing altho that doesn't make him a 2nd pairing. Is Draisaitl a 2C ? No but if he is playing centre in Edmonton he will always be behind McDavid.

Pesce would be TML best RHD and there no arguing about that.

That’s not much of an argument considering how weak the leafs are on the right side.

Aho isn’t better than Nylander offensively. Maybe a better two way game but Nylander is better than anyone on the canes offensively.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Sure Nostradamus. You seem to be consistently overvaluing your players. Where are Slavin’s Norris trophies? Because I seem to remember EK getting some.

Once again. He didn’t say Slavin is better, he said the Canes don’t need to, nor will they trade Slavin, a LHD, if they acquire Karlsson, a RHD. It’s not that complicated.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Sure Nostradamus. You seem to be consistently overvaluing your players. Where are Slavin’s Norris trophies? Because I seem to remember EK getting some.

Dude, are you being purposely difficult because I’m not even talking about player value or comparing Slavin to EK

I’m contesting your statement that the canes would have to trade Slavin if they acquire EK. This isn’t true.

You’re just coming back with random crap

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

That’s not much of an argument considering how weak the leafs are on the right side.

Aho isn’t better than Nylander offensively. Maybe a better two way game but Nylander is better than anyone on the canes offensively.

Sounds like you should just keep Nylander if he's that good.

If you want to call him better than Aho offensively then that's fine. They would be super close though so it's not really some big flex. Aho has put up seasons of 36, 37, 38 goals, with the 38 coming in 68 games, as well as 83 and 81 points and another PPG season that was cut short due to COVID. Aho has been a better offensive player over the course of their careers and also a better defensive player. These are facts based on stats, you just have to go look them up.

 

[The Management]

There are some interesting similarities. Neither player appears to be close on an extension. Similar age. Both are probably better than their position in the lineup would suggest. Pesce is better than a number four but just so happens to be playing on a stacked defense, and Nylander produces at a clip that would make him a first liner on most clubs but just so happens to be playing behind Marner. He was in the top twenty across the league in points last year and can drive his own line.

The problematic part for Toronto is that it will be difficult to replace Nylander internally. We don't really have anyone who can push into the second line RW slot. Carolina, at least, has riches on the blueline.

None of this answers the OP, because frankly: I have no idea.

 

[HaNotsri]

Long term: depends on contract demand
Rental: slight edge to Nylander

 

[NyQuil]

What's great about Pesce is that he doesn't put up a lot of points, which means you're getting a lot of value for icetime.

I remember Senators fans saying they wanted more offence out of Artem Zub, but this is ultimately counter-productive from a cap perspective if you already have a few offensive pivots in the line-up.

Good defensive defencemen are worth their weight in gold because they play a lot but don't earn as much as perhaps they should or would from an arbitrator.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

What's great about Pesce is that he doesn't put up a lot of points, which means you're getting a lot of value for icetime.

I remember Senators fans saying they wanted more offence out of Artem Zub, but this is ultimately counter-productive from a cap perspective if you already have a few offensive pivots in the line-up.

Good defensive defencemen are worth their weight in gold because they play a lot but don't earn as much as perhaps they should or would from an arbitrator.

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but Pesce does put up solid numbers. His statline is a mirror of Colton Parayko’s since 18-19 (sample reflects Carolina’s transition into a good team). A direct, in-house comparable, Slavin has scored at a rate just ~3.41 points/82 better with similar usage over the past 5 seasons.

Pesce’s earned a number in the 6s on a long-term deal because of it. Ironically, he’s probably re-signed by now if his numbers were in the Larsson/Zub/Murphy tier.

 

[NyQuil]

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but Pesce does put up solid numbers. His statline is a mirror of Colton Parayko’s since 18-19 (sample reflects Carolina’s transition into a good team). A direct, in-house comparable, Slavin has scored at a rate just ~3.41 points/82 better with similar usage over the past 5 seasons.

Pesce’s earned a number in the 6s on a long-term deal because of it. Ironically, he’s probably re-signed by now if his numbers were in the Larsson/Zub/Murphy tier.

I'm sort of making a distinction between a top pairing defenceman who plays on the top powerplay unit and either a middle pairing guy or complementary top pairing guy.

There are fans who hope everyone turns into a #1 defenceman but I find that there are relatively few around the league who occupy that reasonably priced middle ground of successfully logging big minutes without putting up tons of points.

It's these guys that I think turn teams into contenders.

I think most teams can draft a decent #1 guy. Even the worst teams in the league often have one.

 

[TBF1972]

I guess you missed the part where I said in most situations? And there’s a massive difference between Nylander and Marleau.

cap is always an aspect in every trade. karlsson just won the norris and is on the trade without a taker because of his contract. jeannot and hagel returned multiple early round picks because of their contracts.

 

[shortfuze]

cap is always an aspect in every trade. karlsson just won the norris and is on the trade without a taker because of his contract. jeannot and hagel returned multiple early round picks because of their contracts.

That’s not what I’m referring to. You should never just lose a trade because you will be opening up cap space to sign someone else. Torontos GM shouldn’t be happy with trading a guy like Nylander for under market value just because he opened up cap space.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

That’s not what I’m referring to. You should never just lose a trade because you will be opening up cap space to sign someone else. Torontos GM shouldn’t be happy with trading a guy like Nylander for under market value just because he opened up cap space.

No, they shouldn't be happy JUST because he opens up cap space but it's part of it.

Put it this way... I'm sure leafs fans like Auston Matthews right? If he were to be traded he would get a haul and rightfully so... but you know how they could get even more? If he made 6m instead of $11.6m. The cap is relevant when you're talking about real world deals. On HF in a vacuum, sure, feel free to ignore it when comparing players or trade proposals if you want but the reason why the Leafs might have to trade Nylander is because he's asking for more than they can afford. Getting back a good player who is on a sweetheart contract is worth something.

 

[Divine]

I have no idea why the Leafs would target Brett Pesce with Nylander. They weren't interested when Nylander was a 60 point player, they're certainly not going to be interested after he hit 87 points.

If anything, a trade with Winnipeg makes more sense. Helly wants out, Schief wants out, and they'll have cap space to burn

 

[DingDongCharlie]

Both teams should do this as it addresses their area of need from a position of strength.

Pesce gives Toronto a top pairing RD to staple to Rielly. The added cap space is valuable for them. Shelters Klingberg and pushes Brodie to a better spot in the D core.

Carolina adds a top line goal scorer. Their D core can easily adsorb the loss of a Dmen even the calibre of Pesce with Slavin, Orlov, Skjei and Burns in the top 4.

Nylander for Pesce + 2nd. Just a no brainer of a deal.

I’m sure many know, and some don’t yet that Klingberg is going to need Barrie level sheltering 5v5. The only thing lacking in Pesce game is offensively. With Rielly and Klingberg offensive from the D core isn’t an issue.

 

[shortfuze]

No, they shouldn't be happy JUST because he opens up cap space but it's part of it.

Put it this way... I'm sure leafs fans like Auston Matthews right? If he were to be traded he would get a haul and rightfully so... but you know how they could get even more? If he made 6m instead of $11.6m. The cap is relevant when you're talking about real world deals. On HF in a vacuum, sure, feel free to ignore it when comparing players or trade proposals if you want but the reason why the Leafs might have to trade Nylander is because he's asking for more than they can afford. Getting back a good player who is on a sweetheart contract is worth something.

But again I’m not talking about cap space in a trade from team to team. I’m talking about a team losing a trade and opening up cap space so the money could be used in free agency.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

But again I’m not talking about cap space in a trade from team to team. I’m talking about a team losing a trade and opening up cap space so the money could be used in free agency.

The thing is you can potentially get a good player with that money in FA and then also valuable assets from the trade. It's all situational, but theoretically it's not a bad play depending on the players involved. I'm not saying that's what the Leafs should do with Willy because his contract is not an issue. He's underpaid for what he brings, but for a player that might be overpaid but still has good value across the league it could make sense.

 

[NyQuil]

I have no idea why the Leafs would target Brett Pesce with Nylander. They weren't interested when Nylander was a 60 point player, they're certainly not going to be interested after he hit 87 points.

If anything, a trade with Winnipeg makes more sense. Helly wants out, Schief wants out, and they'll have cap space to burn

Is Nylander interested in going to Winnipeg?

Doesn’t he have a 10 team NTC?

If Carolina can afford Willy, at least it’s a competitive team without locker room
Issues that he might be willing to go to.