Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part III

[Classic Devil]

Because I'm proud of this one and have nowhere to put it:

Finding Zezel took ages.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Because I'm proud of this one and have nowhere to put it:

View attachment 904660


Finding Zezel took ages.

This is exactly how I play this game too if possible. I’m very annoyed that I got impatient on naming a Capitals draft pick who was a Devil when Siegs and Vitek were staring me in the face.

We were nearly identical in Devils named, I just used Haula instead of Carter and Stevens instead of Carpenter. Missed the Caps and Flyers 2nd round+ section.

 

[njdevils1982]

Just want to add something regarding the Nemec stuff. I'm 100% Slovak, all four of my grandparents are from there. I always root for them in every tournament, even over the US. Watching the Devils pick him second overall (with Slovaks going 1-2) was a very proud moment for me. Totally selfish on my part and being from the US, the NHL and the Devils (who's players are in the best league in the world under lucrative contracts) are my highest priority.

all four of my grandparents and both my parents were born in croatia. i need to get over there one day.

 

[Bleedred]

I regularly forget that Mr. Mojo Risin is still an active NHL player.

I think he's in his second tenure with the Wild since we even last him about 5.5 years ago. He even ended up back with the Capitals for a little while.

I don't know why, but he often feels like a player who hasn't been in the league in several years, but he's low key still around and seems to still be a somewhat decent player.

That general Mojo account on twitter while he was here was pretty funny.

 

[njdevils1982]

Because I'm proud of this one and have nowhere to put it:

View attachment 904660


Finding Zezel took ages.

so did waiting for godot.

(...still waiting)

 

[Better Call Sal]

I remember laughing at this video when I first saw it all those years ago. It came back up on my Youtube feed tonight.

 

[Darkauron]

As far as busts for the devils I'd probably go with Matt corrente. He was more useless than anyone and only played like 10 games for us.

At least Matteau ended up playing more. Holtz still has the potential to actually be worth something overall

 

[Guadana]

I don't know how that pick could have sunk the franchise. Nolan Patrick over Nico Hischier or Kakko over Jack is what I think of as moves that could have sunk the franchise.

Maybe if Holtz was from a draft prior to those guys, but we already had a few pretty good players drafted in years before him, and then were able to get guys like Mercer, Luke and Nemec on the other side of him.

He's honestly pretty insignificant. And he didn't bring back anything of substantial value when we traded him anyway, so he's pretty much a wash.

A disappointing pick for sure, but I don't see any way that whiffing on him could have sunk the franchise, unless he was the first serious pick into the rebuild.

Now if he were from the same draft year as any of Hischier, either Hughes brother or Nemec and we picked him instead of any of those guys? That would have been a brutal blow. Unfortunately, we could have had someone better that early in the 2020 draft, but at least it didn't come at the expense of guys we do have right now, who were picked in the years prior and after.

Devils could pick Rossi or Lundell - no one would worry about center depth now.
Devils could pick Askarov - no one would worry about goalie depth. Now and before, we could spent 2nd round pick for center this year.
Devils could pick Quinn. We would have player we wanted to have in Holtz.

You are using post knowledge. If he was a pick from Luke/Simon draft, he would be younger/AHLer with ppg season. Picking him instead of Nico or Jack would be disaster, but picking mostly every player we drafted like Mercer for example would be disaster
Mercer isn't bust. Holtz is for us. May be he will bounce back, it would be great, I wish him well. But for aplayer from 2020 draft where we could draft much better player in any player - Quinn, Rossi, Askarov, Lundell, Jarvis were drafted by 5 picks that goes after Devils. Im not a fan of Perfetti, but even he would be better pick. Devils would be in better position. This is how much good drafting mean. This is level of importance of good picks. We are feeling the difference to have Jack. Or Luke. Or Simon. We don't with Silayev because he isn't playing yet but we will. There were a lot of fans(and still we have some) who were ready to trade 2nd OA for some "right now" player. There were A LOT of fans who woukd trade 10OA this summer for meh compensation because I believe they are octopuses. Living circle is short.
So yeah, Holtz is definitely a bust for now. We would be stronger with better pick. Thanks, God, Devils drafted Nico, Jack, Bratt, Mukhamadullin, Luke, Simon. Holtz still bust. As McLeod. As Smith.

And I hope Markstrom will be good and Jack will be healthy. Wasting top 12-15 pick would be disaster. We have Ottawa example. Very evident.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Holtz wasn't a whiff, I've said this multiple times before, Jack made his shot better after that pick. It became redundant for Holtz to run shot gun with him with how he plays post the pick. We all thought Meier would be the perfect fit with Jack and we saw how that turned out. Jack needs a dude next to him that's a quick strike scorer + doesn't take a lot of shots + that can keep up with him. Think of someone like Oliver Bjorkstrand out of Seattle, he'd be the perfect guy imo to plant next to Jack. Holtz was a decent try but he blew up in our face, it happens. The Devils got Shak who they turned into Meier/Mercer who's a top 9 forward from that draft. 2/3 is a good hit rate for a draft in asset management, we would've all signed up for that that night as well.

 

[HischierSeDgewOrk]

all four of my grandparents and both my parents were born in croatia. i need to get over there one day.

All 4 of my grandparents and both my parents were born in Macedonia. I've been wanting to go every year but hard to make a long trip work with wife and 2 kids. Last time i've been there I was 5..

 

[Blackjack]

I think Holtz is our biggest recent whiff and it’s not even really close. If you look at the players drafted around him and especially after him, literally every single one has been far better or shows more promise all the way down to the end of the round. The lone exception is the horrible tragedy of Amirov. You maybe have to go down to a Lapierre or Perrault to find a player you’d rank below Holtz.

That’s really astonishing this soon after the draft. These players are still appearing in Pronman’s organization rankings.

 

[Triumph]

Holtz wasn't a whiff, I've said this multiple times before, Jack made his shot better after that pick. It became redundant for Holtz to run shot gun with him with how he plays post the pick. We all thought Meier would be the perfect fit with Jack and we saw how that turned out. Jack needs a dude next to him that's a quick strike scorer + doesn't take a lot of shots + that can keep up with him. Think of someone like Oliver Bjorkstrand out of Seattle, he'd be the perfect guy imo to plant next to Jack. Holtz was a decent try but he blew up in our face, it happens. The Devils got Shak who they turned into Meier/Mercer who's a top 9 forward from that draft. 2/3 is a good hit rate for a draft in asset management, we would've all signed up for that that night as well.

Sorry but drafting a player to play on one specific player's wing is idiotic, so if that was the plan, it's even dumber than I thought. I don't think it was the plan.

I don't think Holtz is in the NHL in 2 years, or if he is, he's a marginal player. He's just so seldom ahead of the play mentally, and he doesn't have the physical skills to compensate for that.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

We do tend to draft for need and it's an asinine strategy.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

I'm not sure why people are making Holtz out to be a bigger bust than someone like Matteau. Well actually I do know why, just disappointment in a high pick not working out.

Holtz has more games played than Matteau does in way fewer seasons. Matteau has already been shipped around multiple teams and couldn't stick in the nhl. You can't label Holtz as a bigger bust than Matteau right now. I also think there are others who rank higher on the bust list

Sorry but drafting a player to play on one specific player's wing is idiotic, so if that was the plan, it's even dumber than I thought. I don't think it was the plan.

I don't think Holtz is in the NHL in 2 years, or if he is, he's a marginal player. He's just so seldom ahead of the play mentally, and he doesn't have the physical skills to compensate for that.

It was (and yes it's idiotic). Some people here don't think Fitz has been drafting for need but he has been. Not always, but he has been doing it. They were 100% looking for a sniper to pair with Jack

If you need any proof, look at their last draft. Size and physicality were the theme of the draft (and I hate how this past draft when tbh). What does this team need? Just that

The only reason I haven't actively been shitting on it is because I didn't follow this draft hard but just based on the profile on the players he picked, just awful.

Similar to when Stillman was picked. Passed on higher upside players for a more physical player

 

[NJDevs26]

He certainly drafted for need this year, not sure about other years. It's also at times subjective to say when they draft for need and when they actually have certain players ranked higher on their board (a la Nemec over Wright when many of us including me thought they passed over Wright mostly cause he would have been a 3C here and reached for a 'need' pick instead).

My connotation of drafting for need differs from others here though, imo you draft for need when you draft someone clearly behind on your board because of position - Muk was one I kinda thought was in that vein since he was thought of as a late second round pick we pushed up a round since we didn't have a second rounder and already took two forwards, but that worked out too.

When it's more of a tiebreaker situation a la Holtz-Rossi or whomever else was around that range I don't really consider that drafting for need. It's not like Holtz was ranked a top twenty pick and we pumped him up to seven - him, Rossi and Askarov were all in the same range and they either chose the wrong one or developed him horribly, we'll find out which this year. I don't buy the meme that they drafted Holtz specifically to play with Jack though, especially since they never really tried him with Jack for any length of time to begin with!

 

[Guadana]

Fitz is drafting for needs regularly. Most of the time. May be only Luke was not a draft for need, but he was a draft even for bigger need.

Holtz wasn't a whiff, I've said this multiple times before, Jack made his shot better after that pick. It became redundant for Holtz to run shot gun with him with how he plays post the pick. We all thought Meier would be the perfect fit with Jack and we saw how that turned out. Jack needs a dude next to him that's a quick strike scorer + doesn't take a lot of shots + that can keep up with him. Think of someone like Oliver Bjorkstrand out of Seattle, he'd be the perfect guy imo to plant next to Jack. Holtz was a decent try but he blew up in our face, it happens. The Devils got Shak who they turned into Meier/Mercer who's a top 9 forward from that draft. 2/3 is a good hit rate for a draft in asset management, we would've all signed up for that that night as well.

Nygard. But he did great and doing great to not be in the trading block at all.
The only thing I can imagine if Devils will continue to play borderline play off or will have problems with escaping first round and Fitz will want to shake things a little bit and will need cap space for young defensemen in the same time to trade Bratt for Nygard+. But it should be very specific situation where all players are very good but their teams are not.
The other “theoretical” opportunity can happen if Gritsyuk will join the team and will light up and Yzerman will offer “trade and sign” for making next step sooner. But I don’t he will make it, they were very happy to have opportunity to draft him.
I don’t remember gritty young scorers. May be Kasper(less scorer but very gritty) or Danielson(less gritty but quite well defensively), it’s funny that all were drafted by wings. Benson, Lindstrom, Lundell are untouchable.

 

[Guadana]

He certainly drafted for need this year, not sure about other years. It's also at times subjective to say when they draft for need and when they actually have certain players ranked higher on their board (a la Nemec over Wright when many of us including me thought they passed over Wright mostly cause he would have been a 3C here and reached for a 'need' pick instead).

My connotation of drafting for need differs from others here though, imo you draft for need when you draft someone clearly behind on your board because of position - Muk was one I kinda thought was in that vein since he was thought of as a late second round pick we pushed up a round since we didn't have a second rounder and already took two forwards, but that worked out too.

When it's more of a tiebreaker situation a la Holtz-Rossi or whomever else was around that range I don't really consider that drafting for need. It's not like Holtz was ranked a top twenty pick and we pumped him up to seven - him, Rossi and Askarov were all in the same range and they either chose the wrong one or developed him horribly, we'll find out which this year. I don't buy the meme that they drafted Holtz specifically to play with Jack though, especially since they never really tried him with Jack for any length of time to begin with!

This year pick is the most “consensus” pick. And left defensemen are not so biggest need for this team. There were bigger needs picks like Helenius. Nygard - as center, as a winger for Jack. He has options in Dickinson and Buium(less need) for LD role.
Still Silayev is a pick for needs too. At least not so “for needs” as Holtz, Nemec(still very good potential in the moment). Mukhamadullin was pick for upside. Mercer was a consensus pick but still for need.

 

[MartyOwns]

if i were to write a guide about how to ruin a first round draft pick, i'm basically just writing holtz's story. he may never amount to much, but he was given one of the worst paths to becoming an nhl regular i've seen in quite a while. it was almost like fitz didn't want to draft him but he was outnumbered, then he took it out on holtz.

 

[Triumph]

I'm not sure why people are making Holtz out to be a bigger bust than someone like Matteau. Well actually I do know why, just disappointment in a high pick not working out.

Holtz has more games played than Matteau does in way fewer seasons. Matteau has already been shipped around multiple teams and couldn't stick in the nhl. You can't label Holtz as a bigger bust than Matteau right now. I also think there are others who rank higher on the bust list

Matteau was picked near last in a weak draft, where almost nobody picked after him has done great either. If you want to go straight up busts, John Quenneville played fewer games, Ari Ahonen didn't play any at all, Lance Ward never played here at all, Corey Foster was bad too, etc. It's only the name that has anyone thinking of Matteau.

It was (and yes it's idiotic). Some people here don't think Fitz has been drafting for need but he has been. Not always, but he has been doing it. They were 100% looking for a sniper to pair with Jack

If you need any proof, look at their last draft. Size and physicality were the theme of the draft (and I hate how this past draft when tbh). What does this team need? Just that

The only reason I haven't actively been shitting on it is because I didn't follow this draft hard but just based on the profile on the players he picked, just awful.

Similar to when Stillman was picked. Passed on higher upside players for a more physical player

I don't think Fitz drafts for need as much as this. It's very easy to interpret his moves as drafting for need if you want to, but the organization also needs physical players, and there is a huge difference between drafting for NHL team need (bad) and drafting for organizational need (usually good, or at least worth considering).

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I definitely wouldn't be shocked if it turned out a lot of the conversation about Holtz pre-draft among the brain trust was about organizational need (right shot sniper) and how he'd look next to Jack Hughes. Fitz's drafting is not something I'm currently ecstatic about to be honest. The only move of his so far I was very skeptical about that turned out to be the clear right move was Nemec at 2 over Jiricek and Wright/Cooley. Mukhmadullin has turned out better than I feared too I'd say.

 

[Better Call Sal]

The only reason I didn't mention guys like Ahonen or Damphousse as busts is because I don't think they were ever going to have a realistic shot at supplanting Marty. Easy to say that now in hindsight.

Neither of them ever panning out as even a backup doesn't help, though. I honestly didn't even realize how long Ahonen was in Albany for. Part of me thought he never even came over from Finland for some reason.

 

[NJDevs26]

This year pick is the most “consensus” pick. And left defensemen are not so biggest need for this team. There were bigger needs picks like Helenius. Nygard - as center, as a winger for Jack. He has options in Dickinson and Buium(less need) for LD role.
Still Silayev is a pick for needs too. At least not so “for needs” as Holtz, Nemec(still very good potential in the moment). Mukhamadullin was pick for upside. Mercer was a consensus pick but still for need.

I wasn't talking about the first round necessarily although even Silyaev you could have argued for one of the other defensemen over him but they went high celling because of size, that's fine but the later rounds they definitely overdrafted on size and didn't even look at anyone who wasn't big.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Sorry but drafting a player to play on one specific player's wing is idiotic, so if that was the plan, it's even dumber than I thought. I don't think it was the plan.

I don't think Holtz is in the NHL in 2 years, or if he is, he's a marginal player. He's just so seldom ahead of the play mentally, and he doesn't have the physical skills to compensate for that.

You're saying that now yet the guy had an awful revolving door of wingers his first 2 years, the Penguins were in the abyss with Sid for a decade until they found Guentzel. They kept trading for guys like Hossa, Kunitz, etc. I do agree with you overall that it's a bad strategy but the Devils kinda had to draft for that since no winger was going to come here with their own. They will now after seeing how Hughes fully arriving in the league.

 

[NJDevs26]

The only reason I didn't mention guys like Ahonen or Damphousse as busts is because I don't think they were ever going to have a realistic shot at supplanting Marty. Easy to say that now in hindsight.

Neither of them ever panning out as even a backup doesn't help, though. I honestly didn't even realize how long Ahonen was in Albany for. Part of me thought he never even came over from Finland for some reason.

People whine about drafting for need but those are examples I like to point out where slavishly sticking to the board isn't any better than overdrafting on need. Those picks were the polar opposite of drafting for need, that was being stubborn. Yeah I know Lou was supposedly paranoid over the small chance Marty might walk as a FA, child please...he'd already signed long-term by the time Ahonen was drafted, two years after he'd already picked Damphousse.

 

[Cheddabombs]

When training camp