Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part III

[Camille the Eel]

Yeah, for now Holtz and Smith are looking like much bigger busts. Is it surprising. No and yes and no. Still I have hope Holtz will develop his game and will be competent enough bo be at least secondary scorer in NHL. Ty Smith has problems. Those 25+ picks could not be named as biggest busts. Or lets add Stillman to this list, at least in potential.

Lesson is not to make first round choices of guys who’s basic skating facility, agility, and other basic skills, are not at elite NHL levels. They can have great hands, shot, hockey sense, rack up points in juniors and inferior leagues, but if they can’t skate and do other things at a first rounder NHL level it is doubtful that they will excel in the league.

Personality is another thing but harder to assess by metrics.

 

[Guadana]

Lesson is not to make first round choices of guys who’s basic skating facility, agility, and other basic skills, are not at elite NHL levels. They can have great hands, shot, hockey sense, rack up points in juniors and inferior leagues, but if they can’t skate and do other things at a first rounder NHL level it is doubtful that they will excel in the league.

Personality is another thing but harder to assess by metrics.

I think both had issues with skating and positional IQ in D zone without the puck. Both were not good as skaters on the short distances from the start. Both are not as mobile as you would like. And a lot of puck battles are about body positioning and small fast moves.
We can remember Gusev who is very smart player and very talented, talented enough to produce 44 points in 66 games, but still not good enough skater to play regular role in NHL at all. He is way more talented than tonns of players, but league minimum is higher. I think Holtz has different interesting tools - he is good passer too. But he needs to develop some part of his game, because for now its a problem for him.

Reason why drafting players with below average skating with high pick is a big risk, especially with questions about IQ or compete level or two way game. Literally any other pick would be great in 2020. Thats fun that after some time Fitz drafting absolutely antagonist(i like this words especially for him) of Holtz - Silayev. Not so great passer and shooter, but great skater, huge, very defensive first defenseman.

 

[Better Call Sal]

No way Corrente #30 OA, Mattaeau #29 OA or someone like Quenneville #30 OA or even recently Stillman #29 OA are bigger bust than Holtz #7 OA, McLeod #11 OA...and going way back Lance Ward #10 OA, Corey Foster #12 OA, Neil Brady #3 OA.

Just silly talk...to think a bottom of the 1st round pick in some not so great draft years is the franchises biggest bust makes no sense whatsoever.

As it stands Holtz is in contention for the biggest bust of all time...he still has time to right his career but he doesn't look like he has the tools to do it...scary bad pick in not seeing the deficiencies in his game in my opinion.

Edit: shit, even Ty Smith is a worse pick than any of the likes of Corrente, Matteau, or Stillman.

To be perfectly frank, I’m not old enough to have experienced the real likely biggest busts in franchise history, which appears to be Brady. I wanted to offer a name that hadn’t been mentioned yet, and Corrente was simply a guy who likely never had the potential of a first round pick to begin with. Yet he was around the time I started to follow prospects more closely, so take that for what it’s worth.

You can argue Holtz is the biggest bust potentially, but the guy at least excels in one area even if the rest of his game is never going to be up to snuff. Same with Ty Smith who, like it or not, out produced the careers of Matteau and Quenneville as a defenseman. They may never pan out to their draft pick status, but they didn’t flame out quite as spectacularly as those players did. Funny how neither of them would have ever been Devils had Lou just forfeited the #29 pick, but let’s not get into that again.

As for McLeod, he started to carve a niche out in his career. Unfortunately, it appears he was a POS. Nothing more to add.

 

[Forge]

There's no urgency to Holtz when he plays, so that probably doesn't help with flaws. I don't think he's inherently lazy or anything, I just think he has a very laid back on ice demeanor.

 

[Devs3cups]

I think both had issues with skating and positional IQ in D zone without the puck. Both were not good as skaters on the short distances from the start. Both are not as mobile as you would like. And a lot of puck battles are about body positioning and small fast moves.
We can remember Gusev who is very smart player and very talented, talented enough to produce 44 points in 66 games, but still not good enough skater to play regular role in NHL at all. He is way more talented than tonns of players, but league minimum is higher. I think Holtz has different interesting tools - he is good passer too. But he needs to develop some part of his game, because for now its a problem for him.

Reason why drafting players with below average skating with high pick is a big risk, especially with questions about IQ or compete level or two way game. Literally any other pick would be great in 2020. Thats fun that after some time Fitz drafting absolutely antagonist(i like this words especially for him) of Holtz - Silayev. Not so great passer and shooter, but great skater, huge, very defensive first defenseman.

Good post. Passing and shooting can also be improved, moreso than skating. I’m excited with Silayev’s potential. Very happy to have a D-man of his caliber in the prospect pool. Super exciting.

 

[Better Call Sal]

The underrated or underappreciated categories are the toughest. I feel like Brylin is the obvious choice, but there are so many over the years that apply. McKay, Albelin, Stevenson, Zajac, Greene and even Severson could have a case made for them in some respects.

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Underated = Zajac
Overated = Kovalchuk
Best = Brodeur
Worst = Geertsen
Funniest = Clarkson
Underappreciated = Paul Martin
Most Potential = Luke (Jack has pretty much hit his potential)
Biggest bust = Holtz
Best Playmaker = Jack Hughes
Best Goalscorer = Parise
Best Defenseman = Niedermayer
Best Goalie = Brodeur
Best Penalty Killer= Parise
Best shot blocker = Daneyko
Best Coach = Lemaire
Best GM = Lamoriello

Could’ve put Elias in a bunch of those. Also think Hughes will end up the best goal scorer

 

[NjDevsRR]

How we feeling entering September?

2 for me. Optimistic

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

How we feeling entering September?

View attachment 904623

2 for me. Optimistic

 

[Cheddabombs]

How we feeling entering September?

View attachment 904623

2 for me. Optimistic

Were so back

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

How we feeling entering September?

2 for me. Optimistic

0 - Devils have top 5 cup odds pretty much everywhere, the biggest issues in the offseason were addressed, the only real potential disaster scenario I see is injuries to the centers derailing the season.

https://www.oddschecker.com/us/hockey/nhl/stanley-cup/winner

 

[Saugus]

I'm in wait and see mode right now. I'll feel better if Nemec is able to go to start the season, and if it's clear that the guys with injury troubles at the end of last season (Hughes, Meier, Hamilton) are back at 100%.

I also want to see that we got the good version of Markstrom before I relax about our goaltending.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

Nemec already injured, random Slovakian fans pissed at us. 10. We are screwed. When's the draft?

 

[RNCDevil]

This thread has like 10 juicy subtopics...

Holtz...I don't think his story is over. I think the Devils did not develop him well.

Hard to say which player I did not like. There were many bad players but I think we fans were overly harsh because in fact the coaches or GM kept putting them out there--like Ryder. So, I gotta go with trash Boucher.

Underappreciated for me...I throw Ryan Clowe in there. He tried so hard and I began hearing for his life. I am so glad he took the smart path and retired.

Anticipation...so much rests on two things...and not Markstrom. Will the forwards abandon their defensive responsibilities and with the minute eaters on the back end, Luke, Dougie, Sieges and Pesce do their job? If those pan out, I am gruntled.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Nemec already injured, random Slovakian fans pissed at us. 10. We are screwed. When's the draft?

 

[Better Call Sal]

I’m a 0 baby. Dano all amped up with insane levels of Genucel.

Let the season begin!

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

Saw this going around the HF boards.
Best Penalty Killer= Hischier

I'm sure there there are some Devils historians that could probably make a better one.

Not sure I agree with this. My vote would go to Pandolfo or Madden

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

I've been around the Devils probably as long (maybe longer?) and my Biggest Bust is Stefan Matteau.

Yes, I know Lou f'ed up back then with his decision not to give up the very late draft pick but he was still a first-rounder and if you look at his stats, he is the quintessential equivalent of a AAAA-level Baseball player who plays at a high-level in the minor-leagues but can't do shiznit in the Big Leagues.

Even Matt Corrente had a season in the NHL where he had 6 assists.

Whereas Matteau had 2 Goals and ZERO assists in 27 games (throughout his only 2 seasons in NJ).

Even when he went to other NHL teams like the Avs, Blowjackets, Golden Knights, and Habs, he underperformed.

In fact his "best" year was when he scored a whopping TWO goals and ONE assist in 9 games for the Blowjackets and followed that up the next season with them with one goal and zero assists in 18 games for them.

No one can convince me Matteau was Lou's first choice, I don't think he was that senile. He definitely "panicked" a little when his guy got picked (Vasilevskiy). I really believe that was his guy. There's just no way you keep the pick because the guy you were interested was Matteau

 

[My3Sons]

Not sure I agree with this. My vote would go to Pandolfo or Madden

I think it was Chorske and in recent years it was Zacha

 

[Camille the Eel]

There's no urgency to Holtz when he plays, so that probably doesn't help with flaws. I don't think he's inherently lazy or anything, I just think he has a very laid back on ice demeanor.

He was always chasing the play. Behind the play. Which is maybe a different thing.

 

[Satans Hockey]

I'm in wait and see mode right now. I'll feel better if Nemec is able to go to start the season, and if it's clear that the guys with injury troubles at the end of last season (Hughes, Meier, Hamilton) are back at 100%.

I also want to see that we got the good version of Markstrom before I relax about our goaltending.

Wait and see mode for me too. Got way too excited about last season and it was an absolute nightmare to sit through another dog shit season after finally making the playoffs again.

 

[Bleedred]

I'm in wait and see mode right now. I'll feel better if Nemec is able to go to start the season, and if it's clear that the guys with injury troubles at the end of last season (Hughes, Meier, Hamilton) are back at 100%.

I also want to see that we got the good version of Markstrom before I relax about our goaltending.

Regarding Markstrom, this is what I'd be more comfortable if Rogalski were GANKED as part of our complete facelift of the goalie position.

 

[Bleedred]

There are 0 universes where Matteau is a bigger bust than Holtz. Holtz was sandwiched between guys like Raymond, Sanderson, Drysdale, Perfetti, Askarov, Lundell, Jarvis. The Devils are fortunate that kind of draft selection didn't sink the franchise.

I don't know how that pick could have sunk the franchise. Nolan Patrick over Nico Hischier or Kakko over Jack is what I think of as moves that could have sunk the franchise.

Maybe if Holtz was from a draft prior to those guys, but we already had a few pretty good players drafted in years before him, and then were able to get guys like Mercer, Luke and Nemec on the other side of him.

He's honestly pretty insignificant. And he didn't bring back anything of substantial value when we traded him anyway, so he's pretty much a wash.

A disappointing pick for sure, but I don't see any way that whiffing on him could have sunk the franchise, unless he was the first serious pick into the rebuild.

Now if he were from the same draft year as any of Hischier, either Hughes brother or Nemec and we picked him instead of any of those guys? That would have been a brutal blow. Unfortunately, we could have had someone better that early in the 2020 draft, but at least it didn't come at the expense of guys we do have right now, who were picked in the years prior and after.

 

[JK3]

Screw these tournaments, I’m 100% against them. Same for the Olympics, they should go back to only amateurs.

Just want to add something regarding the Nemec stuff. I'm 100% Slovak, all four of my grandparents are from there. I always root for them in every tournament, even over the US. Watching the Devils pick him second overall (with Slovaks going 1-2) was a very proud moment for me. Totally selfish on my part and being from the US, the NHL and the Devils (who's players are in the best league in the world under lucrative contracts) are my highest priority.

 

[Triumph]

There are 0 universes where Matteau is a bigger bust than Holtz. Holtz was sandwiched between guys like Raymond, Sanderson, Drysdale, Perfetti, Askarov, Lundell, Jarvis. The Devils are fortunate that kind of draft selection didn't sink the franchise.

Agree about the general point that if you're assigning bust sizes, Holtz is bigger than Matteau, but missing on a 7th overall does not sink a franchise. Plenty of franchises have missed on high picks and gone on to success in the near future - the Kings lost 4th overall Thomas Hickey to waivers in the midst of winning 2 Stanley Cups, the Bruins got nothing out of Zach Hamill taken 8th overall but won a Cup 4 years later and have been a dominant franchise for the next 10 years, and Kyle Beach was taken 11th overall in their last year of missing the playoffs and the Blackhawks received nothing of value for him. Tampa barely got anything out of Brett Connolly, and that trade is the most analogous to the deal the Devils made with Holtz. Florida also has nothing to show for Lawson Crouse and Owen Tippett and won the Stanley Cup. You can miss on one of these, and it's likely you will - just have to hit on the others, and the Devils have gotten plenty out of Mercer and Mukhamadullin.