Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[Captain3rdLine]

I mean this is exactly why I wanted Ruff fired too and don't really agree with Fitz keeping him.

He is the HC. If the special teams are so bad, and the way the team plays defense isn't good enough. HC is either already failing, or not stepping in to fix it as the assistant fails.

Why even have a HC then? What does Ruff actually do here if the assistants actually have all the power?

The assistants don’t have all the power. They have their own jobs though. Recchi was hired to run the pp and be a mentor to the young forwards and that’s pretty much all he did. Ruff had a whole ton of other stuff to do as part of his job. His job isn’t to step in and take over Recchi’s one job whenever he wants unless Fitz and him decide that’s the best course of action. At that point Recchi is as good as fired though as he no longer really even doing anything and it really wouldn’t make sense to do that in a lost season.

 

[RangerDoggo]

I mean this is exactly why I wanted Ruff fired too and don't really agree with Fitz keeping him.

He is the HC. If the special teams are so bad, and the way the team plays defense isn't good enough. HC is either already failing, or not stepping in to fix it as the assistant fails.

Why even have a HC then? What does Ruff actually do here if the assistants actually have all the power?

They don't have all the power, Ruff is delegating responsibilities. It's what bosses do in a work environment.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

They don't have all the power, Ruff is delegating responsibilities. It's what bosses do in a work environment.

Somewhat but not even really. Fitz hired Recchi to run the powerplay. It wasn’t even like Ruff was just delegating. They hired Recchi to run the powerplay and be a mentor to the young forwards as the 3rd coach.

 

[StevenToddIves]

I've already said I like Lyubushkin, he gets decent results, he can play on my third pair any time. 3 years at 2.5M? Yeah, that would work. 4 years at 3.5? Absolutely not. GMs cannot mistake rare skill sets for valuable ones, and while this sort of RHD hit machine who plays a decent defensive game is somewhat rare, it doesn't mean it is valuable.

Also should be noted that you as a watch-the-games enthusiast liked him so much that you mentioned him one (1) time before he was traded to Toronto. And now you love him! You had so many other strong assessments of totally marginal Toronto players - Justin Holl, Andreas Johnsson - that it makes me think you watch Toronto a lot. Guess who else pays attention to Toronto way more? The bulk of NHL GMs. The real undervalued players in Toronto tend to be players being dumped on by the media, which a Lyubushkin type almost never will be.

In a roundabout sort of way, I agree with your unstated point that Arizona is hard to watch.

Everything else here is sort of just generally negative and nonsensical ("our swimming-in-cap-room team can't afford an extra 1 year and $1 million to shore up the defense!"), but I do always remember to take posts in context with who is posting.

 

[FooteBahl]

It really isn’t that simple and you’re ignoring the simple fact that Ruff has a lot of other stuff to worry about. It also just isn’t his job. When Recchi was hired he was hired to run the powerplay. Like in any other job in the world. If a colleague is doing a bad job it doesn’t just mean you just take over their job. You can’t. Recchi was hired to be the pp coach. Ruff can’t and isn’t going to just say okay I’m the pp coach now. He also can’t do that while putting all the required effort into what he is actually supposed to be focused on.
Sure in some situations Fitz could come in and say okay Mark, Lindy is gonna run the pp now but at that point he’s essentially getting fired in season which they clearly don’t want to do and Ruff is handling more than he should.

Recchi was hired to run the pp. They either fire him in season which it seems unlikely they were gonna do especially considering he was well liked. Or they let him try to figure out the pp. At a certain point it was too late anyways. Like once they’re halfway through the season and they’re out of the playoff race it really isn’t worth it.


Ruff didn’t control the pp. Recchi was hired as the pp coach. Coaches get hired for specific roles and they’re responsible for their roles and they don’t nor is it a good idea to stomp on each others toes and try to take over each others jobs.

Did you not see “Remember the Titans”? When coach asked Denzel help running the D. These things happen all of the time lol

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Did you not see “Remember the Titans”? When coach asked Denzel help running the D. These things happen all of the time lol

This is a joke right?

If its not. I may have seen the movie a while ago but don’t really remember it. But nevertheless it’s a fictional movie based on a true story about a high school football team.

 

[FooteBahl]

This is a joke right?

If its not. I may have seen the movie a while ago but don’t really remember it. But nevertheless it’s a fictional movie based on a true story about a high school football team.

Yes. A poor one at that

 

[OmNomNom]

Somewhat but not even really. Fitz hired Recchi to run the powerplay. It wasn’t even like Ruff was just delegating. They hired Recchi to run the powerplay and be a mentor to the young forwards as the 3rd coach.

i can't agree with the idea that your assistants own 100% of the product - ESPECIALLY if the system isn't working.

the head coach is the head for a purpose. I do agree there is delegation in terms of what to work on, but from a tactical perspective, how could the head be okay with how poorly the PP was running?

it's Ruff's team -- he isn't/shouldn't just stand idly by and be like "oh, well Mark, that's your job and your problem, i'm gonna focus on everything else". The lack of PP goals literally cost Ruff's team many games. you don't just sit there and not step in.

all this to say, the failure of the PP is just as much Ruff's fault as it is Recchi's. It's part of the reason why many times (except our case) when the assistants go, usually it happens when the head coach is being fired, too.

 

[Eggtimer]

As far Lyubushkin goes, I really think we're better off either using what we'd spend on him and adding to it for someone better, or just rolling the dice on someone younger and more cost controlled like Kevin Bahl. I'm still completely confident that Kevin Bahl will be any good, but he looked pretty good this latest call up, despite looking like Seth Helgeson's clone in previous call ups.

That said, I would rather someone like him or O play the bottom pairing for cheap.

It's one the reasons why I've argued moving out Zacha, rather than give him a long term deal or for millions of dollars. I'm pretty confident we could find a cheaper player on an ELC or making slightly more than an ELC (like Boqvist) to at least replicate or come close to replicating Zacha's production.

It’s the fact that Lybushkin is a RHD with Bahl and Okhotiuk and Shakir are all LHD . Asking a rookie to play in his off side is asking a lot

 

[NJDfan86]

In a roundabout sort of way, I agree with your unstated point that Arizona is hard to watch.

Everything else here is sort of just generally negative and nonsensical ("our swimming-in-cap-room team can't afford an extra 1 year and $1 million to shore up the defense!"), but I do always remember to take posts in context with who is posting.

The Devils will not be swimming in cap room for much longer, so sentiments like this can come back to bite you fairly quickly especially if we strive to be a true cup competitor. If we are going to overpay players by 1 mil we want them to be difference makers not 3rd pairing Dman.

We have maybe 1 more season where we don’t have to worry about the cap in season.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

i can't agree with the idea that your assistants own 100% of the product - ESPECIALLY if the system isn't working.

the head coach is the head for a purpose. I do agree there is delegation in terms of what to work on, but from a tactical perspective, how could the head be okay with how poorly the PP was running?

it's Ruff's team -- he isn't/shouldn't just stand idly by and be like "oh, well Mark, that's your job and your problem, i'm gonna focus on everything else". The lack of PP goals literally cost Ruff's team many games. you don't just sit there and not step in.

all this to say, the failure of the PP is just as much Ruff's fault as it is Recchi's. It's part of the reason why many times (except our case) when the assistants go, usually it happens when the head coach is being fired, too.

It isn’t even delegation though. Recchi was hired to run the powerplay. I don’t think it’s within Ruff’s role to step in. Recchi’s job is to run the powerplay. Ruff can try to help him but I don’t think he can just step in and take over Recchi’s job. At that point Recchi is essentially fired which isn’t Ruff’s decision to make. Fitz could make that decision in season but it would likely mean firing Recchi.

It isn’t Ruff’s team. It’s Fitz’s team. Ruff was hired to be the head coach and controls the duties assigned to him. As with pretty much every team these days the power play is run by a separate coach hired to do so.

It’s not a thing where Ruff can just be like hey Mark I know you were hired to run the power play but it hasn’t been good enough so I’m gonna run that and you can fill up water bottles now. Fitz hire Recchi to run the powerplay. That’s his job.

 

[NJDevs26]

Did you not see “Remember the Titans”? When coach asked Denzel help running the D. These things happen all of the time lol

I know you’re kidding but head coaches taking over the offensive or defensive play calling in-season actually does happen in football. Then again football head coaches are a particular brand of anal control freak. Managers don’t take over hitting or pitching coach duties in baseball. Head coaches in basketball generally keep offensive and defensive game plans with the assistants, like hockey.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I know you’re kidding but head coaches taking over the offensive or defensive play calling in-season actually does happen in football. Then again football head coaches are a particular brand of anal control freak. Managers don’t take over hitting or pitching coach duties in baseball. Head coaches in basketball generally keep offensive and defensive game plans with the assistants, like hockey.

I was actually thinking and curious about this during this discussion.

It’s probably a little different in every sport, level and team but from what I’ve seen and know in hockey it seems like assistant coaches are hired to run specific special teams and areas and I think it would be very rare for a head coach to take them over.

Didn’t even realize that happens in football.

 

[StevenToddIves]

The Devils will not be swimming in cap room for much longer, so sentiments like this can come back to bite you fairly quickly especially if we strive to be a true cup competitor. If we are going to overpay players by 1 mil we want them to be difference makers not 3rd pairing Dman.

We have maybe 1 more season where we don’t have to worry about the cap in season.

The Devils need a 3-RD badly next year. They also can use a defensively responsible, veteran third-pairing partner for a likely rookie LD of Mukhamadullin, Okhotyuk or Bahl. Lyubushkin fills both these needs.

The Devils also need more physicality on their back end, better shot-blocking, and a RD who can play on the PK so Hamilton does not have to. Lyubushkin also fills these needs.

The Devils have nothing coming up on the farm at RD. Walsh cannot play NHL-caliber defense, while McCarthy is still a couple years away from challenging for an NHL role. There is no guarantee Damon Severson will stay past his UFA season next year, creating even greater need at the position.

The idea that 3rd pairing defensemen are not difference makers is a myth. How many more wins would the Devils have had this year if the 3-LD all season was, say, Nikita Zadorov or Derek Forbort instead of Ty Smith? Five? Eight? Both those players are "just" third-pairing defenders, paid in the $3 million-plus range, and both shut down the opposition with strong defense and physical play down low.

There is nothing wrong with paying a very good role-player like Lyubushkin that type of money. I mean, the Devils are basically burning $8 million a year on Johnsson and Tatar, players who don't offer any benefit in any role whatsoever. Lyubushkin would clearly improve the team. As I've said several times, if the Devils go into 2022-23 with a third pairing of Smith and Walsh (spoiler: they won't), there's little chance of a playoff berth regardless of how much they improve in net.

I'd say Lyubushkin's market value is likely in the $3 million range. My whole point is, I'd be willing to go up into the mid-$3 million range to get him. This year, he would have been 3rd on the Devils D in blocked shots -- which the Devils sorely need to improve upon -- and 1st on the blueline in hits by over 100. He was among the best in the league in terms of fewest giveaways among defensemen. I don't see what the argument against going after such a player at a reasonable salary.

 

[NJDevs26]

I was actually thinking and curious about this during this discussion.

It’s probably a little different in every sport, level and team but from what I’ve seen and know in hockey it seems like assistant coaches are hired to run specific special teams and areas and I think it would be very rare for a head coach to take them over.

Didn’t even realize that happens in football.

It doesn't happen as much as it used to even in football though, cause the game plans are so frigging intricate. The last couple of examples that came to mind are when Parcells took away Charlie Weis's playcalling in '98 to call plays himself and when Brian Billick did the same with former best buddy Jim Fassel a few years after.

 

[My3Sons]

It doesn't happen as much as it used to even in football though, cause the game plans are so frigging intricate. The last couple of examples that came to mind are when Parcells took away Charlie Weis's playcalling in '98 to call plays himself and when Brian Billick did the same with former best buddy Jim Fassel a few years after.

Payton waffled back and forth on calling plays with his offensive coordinator, Charmichael.

They don't have all the power, Ruff is delegating responsibilities. It's what bosses do in a work environment.

Well, then we can blame Emperor Palpatine for the bad PP and poor defensive structure, since, as I understand it, he had unlimited power.

 

[NJDfan86]

The Devils need a 3-RD badly next year. They also can use a defensively responsible, veteran third-pairing partner for a likely rookie LD of Mukhamadullin, Okhotyuk or Bahl. Lyubushkin fills both these needs.

The Devils also need more physicality on their back end, better shot-blocking, and a RD who can play on the PK so Hamilton does not have to. Lyubushkin also fills these needs.

The Devils have nothing coming up on the farm at RD. Walsh cannot play NHL-caliber defense, while McCarthy is still a couple years away from challenging for an NHL role. There is no guarantee Damon Severson will stay past his UFA season next year, creating even greater need at the position.

The idea that 3rd pairing defensemen are not difference makers is a myth. How many more wins would the Devils have had this year if the 3-LD all season was, say, Nikita Zadorov or Derek Forbort instead of Ty Smith? Five? Eight? Both those players are "just" third-pairing defenders, paid in the $3 million-plus range, and both shut down the opposition with strong defense and physical play down low.

There is nothing wrong with paying a very good role-player like Lyubushkin that type of money. I mean, the Devils are basically burning $8 million a year on Johnsson and Tatar, players who don't offer any benefit in any role whatsoever. Lyubushkin would clearly improve the team. As I've said several times, if the Devils go into 2022-23 with a third pairing of Smith and Walsh (spoiler: they won't), there's little chance of a playoff berth regardless of how much they improve in net.

I'd say Lyubushkin's market value is likely in the $3 million range. My whole point is, I'd be willing to go up into the mid-$3 million range to get him. This year, he would have been 3rd on the Devils D in blocked shots -- which the Devils sorely need to improve upon -- and 1st on the blueline in hits by over 100. He was among the best in the league in terms of fewest giveaways among defensemen. I don't see what the argument against going after such a player at a reasonable salary.

No, the difference between Ty Smith and those players was not 5-8 wins - c’mon now.

 

[OmNomNom]

now that i think about it, we have 0 knowledge on how responsibilities are delegated and who even hired/chose the assistants. it's all speculation

 

[Captain3rdLine]

now that i think about it, we have 0 knowledge on how responsibilities are delegated and who even hired/chose the assistants. it's all speculation

No we don’t (as in we do have knowledge).
It’s typically done by the GM. The owners may influence it but usually it’s the GN that leads the hiring process. If there’s already a head coach in place they may be part of the process and decision like Fitz has been suggesting. But, the GM is the one actually hiring them. That’s one of the biggest parts of a GM’s job. Hiring/firing coaches and other staff.

But Mark Recchi was very clearly hired by Fitz ands it’s very clear he was hired as a powerplay coach and mentor.
They worked together in Pittsburg so they had a connection.
And you can read the article from when the Devils hired him and it’s very clear what his role would be.

 

[Eggtimer]

No, the difference between Ty Smith and those players was not 5-8 wins - c’mon now.

I don’t know how to answer to this as I’m not sure if you think it should be more or less games ? Smith was terrible . As in one of the league worst D that played a lot of minutes .
I wouldn’t be surprised if the number would be higher than that .
As far as what assistants roles are ,it varies from team to team so much that no way can say for sure hiw much , if any blame Ruff should take for a terrible PP .

 

[NJDfan86]

I don’t know how to react to this as I’m not sure if you think it should be more or less games ? Smith was terrible . As in one of the league worst D that played a lot of minutes .
I wouldn’t be surprised if the number would be higher than that .

There is no shot it’s even close to that - I am not defending Ty Smith’s season for the record, just the disparity in the impact stated.

 

[Tao Jersey Jones]

I say let's hire Boudreau and get some energy in the room. If Boudreau doesn't want to come to NJ to be head coach, Kirk Muller would also be a terrific option.

Muller coached with Ruff for Team Canada in 2019.

Other Team Canada coaches with Ruff:

Alain Vigneault
Dave Hakstol
Ken Hitchcock
Claude Julien
Mike Babcock
Doug Shedden
Dave Tippett
Jacques Lemaire
Barry Trotz

 

[Triumph]

In a roundabout sort of way, I agree with your unstated point that Arizona is hard to watch.

Everything else here is sort of just generally negative and nonsensical ("our swimming-in-cap-room team can't afford an extra 1 year and $1 million to shore up the defense!"), but I do always remember to take posts in context with who is posting.

The Devils are not swimming in cap room. It's not 2020 anymore. Yes, they're going into next year with nearly $24 million in cap room for next season, but they owe Bratt a lot of money, a lot of guys on the team will need raises next season (Sharangovich, Siegenthaler among them), and they want to add a goalie as well as probably a top forward. Let's say Bratt gets $6.5, Wood gets 2.8, this top forward gets $6M and the goalie gets $4M. Well now you are looking at $7M in cap room. Maybe you can get rid of one or Tatar or Johnsson and clear up some money, but you aren't likely to get rid of both, and you're likely to have to retain money or buy them out, and buying either one out is a disaster.

Plus they already have guys like Lyubushkin in the minors with Bahl and Okhotiuk. Yeah, they need a 3RD, and I like Lyubushkin, but they don't have $3.5M for an RHD, and they certainly don't have it for 4 years.

 

[Guttersniped]

Lyubushkin is a mobile, 6'2, physical shut-down D who handles the puck well, clears creases and wins battles down low. He plays excellent gaps and is a beast in one-on-one battles. He's basically a right-handed version of Jonas Siegenthaler -- maybe not quite as good overall, but more physical. The difference in the overall play of the Toronto blueline before and after the acquisitions of Lyubushkin (and, to a lesser extent, Giordano) was huge and easy to see if you actually watched the games.

Anyone who says Lyubushkin "isn't very good" clearly hasn't watched him very much and is making this assessment using some less accurate method, so this is not a debate I'm willing to continue.

I really like him. This is brand of defensemen is definitely in Russia’s wheelhouse and Lybushkin played huge numbers at very early age in the KHL. This is Lybushkin’s impact on a more functional Coyotes team in 2019-20.

I would go after him in free agency if he somehow makes it to market but the Leafs would be idiots to let that happen. (So they won’t.)

I actually use him as comparable in terms of TOI & age in the KHL when looking at our guys and other young defensemen. Him, Ottawa’s Zub, and Columbus’ Gavrikov. (In the context of what defensemen they have on their KHL team.)

 

[Eggtimer]

We are still in a good position cap wise . I’m sure we will try what we can to get rid of Johnson Zacha Tatar . Subban off the books. If we can get rid of Tatar and Johnson , they will be jet go after next season. We will have a few kids still on their ELC - coming up Mercer Luke Bahl Okhotiuk Shakir Zetterlund Holtz etc . If Bernier is still hurt he will be in LTIR and then not resigned . The season after next will be fine . It’s if / when the kids break out when it will get sticky . When Luke is off his ELC .