Wouldn't it have also been a better return if it weren't for the bubble play-in shenanigans the NHL pulled?
If they would've gone by point percentage, wouldn't Arizona's pick have been 10th or so overall?
Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition
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Wouldn't it have also been a better return if it weren't for the bubble play-in shenanigans the NHL pulled?
If they would've gone by point percentage, wouldn't Arizona's pick have been 10th or so overall?
Eggtimer
Registered User
Massively off topic , but the more I think of options for us this off-season, the more I warm up to trying to sign Gaudreau.
Yes he is a small forward but he is a career PPG player , can drive play from the wing , was a Hart trophey finalist , led the league in 5on5 scoring by a mild. Improved his play away from the pick 10 fold. I think if we signed him we still would have the ability to add “heavier “ wingers in the lineup ( Slafkovsky and Mercer on the wings with Bratt and Gaudreau, maybe a Marchment and or Neiderrieder in the top 6/9 as well.
I still dont want to trade pick #2 (Slafkovsky or even Wright ) unless it’s for a Tkachuk or Pastrnak type stud (no Fiala please )
Addimg Johnny for zero assets used and add an elite player plus keep pick #2 and Holtz is huge.
If we move or let the contracts of Zacha Johnson Tatar Kuokkanen expire or trade them , we will still have cap room for Johnny and a goalie and a RHD like Lyubushkin (expected salary below 2 mil per).
Maybe I’m way off and Johnny is not needed and more of a luxury , but I ”think” we can add him plus still get a goalie and depth pieces ?
Yes he is a small forward but he is a career PPG player , can drive play from the wing , was a Hart trophey finalist , led the league in 5on5 scoring by a mild. Improved his play away from the pick 10 fold. I think if we signed him we still would have the ability to add “heavier “ wingers in the lineup ( Slafkovsky and Mercer on the wings with Bratt and Gaudreau, maybe a Marchment and or Neiderrieder in the top 6/9 as well.
I still dont want to trade pick #2 (Slafkovsky or even Wright ) unless it’s for a Tkachuk or Pastrnak type stud (no Fiala please )
Addimg Johnny for zero assets used and add an elite player plus keep pick #2 and Holtz is huge.
If we move or let the contracts of Zacha Johnson Tatar Kuokkanen expire or trade them , we will still have cap room for Johnny and a goalie and a RHD like Lyubushkin (expected salary below 2 mil per).
Maybe I’m way off and Johnny is not needed and more of a luxury , but I ”think” we can add him plus still get a goalie and depth pieces ?
I tend to avoid any Jim centric arguments but this is what I think is really killing this franchise. Our blue line is so freakin bad and it starts with the horrific drafting/developing/coaching we’ve had since the late Lou era. Pretty much every attempt to fix it has blown up in our faces which has really just ruined any chance this team has to compete. Luke Hughes needs to be the franchise defenseman we’re all praying he is or else nothing is going to change anytime soon.
Stephen Gionta
Boston College > Boston University
I have also been warming up to the idea of adding Gaudreau in UFA.
I'd offer him the same contract as Dougie.
I just worry about years 5, 6, and 7 of that contract.
I'd offer him the same contract as Dougie.
I just worry about years 5, 6, and 7 of that contract.
Better Call Sal
Salnalysis
Let’s just take a little trip down memory lane here of defenseman we’ve drafted, I’ll start in 2019 and go back to 2012.
2019
Nikita Okhotiuk-too early to tell but he’s the first defenseman I’ve see here who actually hits people in ages
Danill Misyul-who knows
Vukojevic-AHL player for now
2018
Ty Smith-promising first season, absolute garbage his second season
Xavier Bernard-ECHL player
2017(we had 11 picks this draft and where I say the rebuild truly started)
Reilly Walsh-still hasn’t made an impact, probably just an AHL player
Jocktan Chainey-who
Yegor Zaitsev-who
2016
Yegor Rykov-traded and then never caught on here
Jeremy Davies-traded, career AHL’er
2015
Colton White-looked bad when he got games in the NHL
2014
Josh Jacobs-grand total of 3 NHL games
Ryan Rehill-never played a game
2013
Steve Santini-serviceable but not an NHL regular
2012
Severson-an actual NHL defenseman
You’d be hard pressed to find a worse team at drafting defenseman than us
2019
Nikita Okhotiuk-too early to tell but he’s the first defenseman I’ve see here who actually hits people in ages
Danill Misyul-who knows
Vukojevic-AHL player for now
2018
Ty Smith-promising first season, absolute garbage his second season
Xavier Bernard-ECHL player
2017(we had 11 picks this draft and where I say the rebuild truly started)
Reilly Walsh-still hasn’t made an impact, probably just an AHL player
Jocktan Chainey-who
Yegor Zaitsev-who
2016
Yegor Rykov-traded and then never caught on here
Jeremy Davies-traded, career AHL’er
2015
Colton White-looked bad when he got games in the NHL
2014
Josh Jacobs-grand total of 3 NHL games
Ryan Rehill-never played a game
2013
Steve Santini-serviceable but not an NHL regular
2012
Severson-an actual NHL defenseman
You’d be hard pressed to find a worse team at drafting defenseman than us
JimEIV
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- Feb 19, 2003
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I don't disagree on with anything you've said...just looking back at Hall for Larsson just seemed like a big waste of time.
Sure you trade Larsson for Hall every day of the week and twice on Sunday...but what did it get us? Mercer 6 later and hole on right side that has never gotten better?
I don't know. Like I said I don't disagree with anything you said...but the move seemed awfully time consuming with not a lot of purpose or result considering in 7 days it will be exactly 6 years since the trade...I did enjoy Hall's MVP season, so there is that.
Eggtimer
Registered User
Yes , we got shafted by that as well and the Yotes shitting the bed in the play-in round
Coleman was traded for a 1st rounder and something else only because of his contract, he's a solid player, but he wasn't an asset until 2019. Greene was traded after 5 seasons here, he returned a 2nd round pick. Zajac returned a 4th rounder and he was here 6 years. This is delusional stuff about how much people are worth - nobody trades anything of substance for players like Zajac on a long-term deal. He was not worth anything at all until his final season when he could be rented. Greene is maybe worth a low 1st in 2015, past that it's hard to say, Shero asked him if he wanted a trade in 2017 and he said no.
If you look at other rebuilds, actually look at other teams and what they do when they decide that it's over, they get substantially more in draft capital from moving their players.
Wood is not a very good player and there's almost no world in which he is ever an asset again. The Devils signed him to a long-term deal that was not worth it, either.
- Dec 20, 2018
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I’m not surprised he didn’t go scorched earth, that would have extreme.
It would have been tough to trade Schneider, he had a full NTC and only one great season under his massive 7 year/6m deal before he began to flounder/breakdown.
In 2016-17 the only goalies making more that Cory were Lundqvist, Bobrovsky, Rinne, Rask, Price & Holtby plus Miller & Crawford also made 6m.
Only Rinne & Crawford hadn’t won a Vezina. Rinne already had two 2nd place finishes & one 3rd, and eventually won his in 2017-18. Crawford had two Cups & two Jennings.
Schneider was Lou’s blunder, it would have been hard to undo, he turned so quick.
We had almost nothing else in goal too, just a free agent signing in his late 20s with Kinkaid.
Shero reportedly pushed for a goalie to be drafted early in 2015 because he was horrified by the void in goal. We drafted Wedgewood (#84) and Maxime Clermont (#174) in 2010 and Marty’s kid (#208) in the 7th in 2013. Before that it was Jeff Frazee (#38) in 2005. It was bonkers. (No offense to OHL FA signing Ken Appleby.)
Shero could have done more to gather assets but rebuilding teams have an advantage now with the frozen cap. Fewer teams had cap problems before, even the 1st Rd pick price of the Marleau trade in 2019 was less about cap space and more about the cash.
Shero made hockey trades early on in part so he could ice some talent, we desperately needed Palmieri for instance. You can’t criticize incredible value trades for an RFA like Palmieri and I even get the Mueller trade, even though I never liked it (and it sucked).
It wasn’t until later, when he was sacrificing a lot of assets for win now moves, with trades for UFAs (including using our own picks) for team that wasn’t remotely at that point, that the rebuild aspect really went off the rails. If Shero didn’t win the lotteries it would be clearer how much he blunted what could have been a more bountiful period. (Luckily we’re hilariously lucky.)
I don’t understand the time argument. You can trace the moves made and see all the players involved, you can see why the talent wasn’t there yet and what has developed now. We now have two players from before 2015, Severson and Wood (assuming Wood stays). It’s a cartoonishly young team.
JimEIV
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In principle I agree.
But from 2016 to 2021 he was one of this teams best goal scores. That's not saying much, this team is devoid of goal scorers.
From 2018 to 2021 Nico and Wood have scored the same amount of goals with 57....Nico played 230 games and Wood 262....but one player is "not a very good player" and the other is a former #1 overall.
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Eggtimer
Registered User
All I want is for the Devils to not suck anymore.
Yes we have sucked for years , yes the team made mistakes . But moving forward , I feel comfortable saying we are in a way better position mow than we were even 5 years ago. Yes it has been frustrating , painful , but we at least have the potential to be very good for a long time. This off-season is crucial. There is a lot of opportunity to either set us up very nicely for the future .
What I do not want to see is Fitz feeling the heat (from ownership or fans or himself ) to make moves that hurt our future to try to compete sooner.
Either that being trading pick #2 and/ or Holtz or Mercer or god forbid Bratt.
Im not sure what the best way to go is ? Is that adding a player like Fiala (I say no , his cap is not worth his style and type of game we need ) or Gaudreau or DeBrincat (Hawks are not giving him away, they only move him if they get PAID assets like the Hagel deal) or Tkachuk ?
I don’t know what the best balance is for using existing assets to add proven NHL talent and keeping picks and prospects hoping they are core pieces ? What kind of cap allotment do we go with ? Do we NEED a Jon my G ? Or are we better off spreading that cap around on a Nichushkin / Marchment / Neiderrider / Lyubushkin . Or can we afford to add one or two of those plus Gaudreau ?
Do we trade Holtz for a proven goalie or other NHL ready player? He is a very good prospect and a much needed shoot first scoring winger but will he be good enough at other part of his game to help us more than trading him for a winger or goalie?
Then there is all the crap around trading pick #2 . Do we just use it ? Who do we take if we do? I want Slafkovsky but what if Habs take him ? Do we take Wright then or do we trade down and try for one of Jiricek Nemec Gauthier ?
Do we package up the pick plus Holtz if a stud like Tkachuk is available?
I don’t know what to think but I love reading what others think about what to do. It’s kinda stressful but fun .
Yes we have sucked for years , yes the team made mistakes . But moving forward , I feel comfortable saying we are in a way better position mow than we were even 5 years ago. Yes it has been frustrating , painful , but we at least have the potential to be very good for a long time. This off-season is crucial. There is a lot of opportunity to either set us up very nicely for the future .
What I do not want to see is Fitz feeling the heat (from ownership or fans or himself ) to make moves that hurt our future to try to compete sooner.
Either that being trading pick #2 and/ or Holtz or Mercer or god forbid Bratt.
Im not sure what the best way to go is ? Is that adding a player like Fiala (I say no , his cap is not worth his style and type of game we need ) or Gaudreau or DeBrincat (Hawks are not giving him away, they only move him if they get PAID assets like the Hagel deal) or Tkachuk ?
I don’t know what the best balance is for using existing assets to add proven NHL talent and keeping picks and prospects hoping they are core pieces ? What kind of cap allotment do we go with ? Do we NEED a Jon my G ? Or are we better off spreading that cap around on a Nichushkin / Marchment / Neiderrider / Lyubushkin . Or can we afford to add one or two of those plus Gaudreau ?
Do we trade Holtz for a proven goalie or other NHL ready player? He is a very good prospect and a much needed shoot first scoring winger but will he be good enough at other part of his game to help us more than trading him for a winger or goalie?
Then there is all the crap around trading pick #2 . Do we just use it ? Who do we take if we do? I want Slafkovsky but what if Habs take him ? Do we take Wright then or do we trade down and try for one of Jiricek Nemec Gauthier ?
Do we package up the pick plus Holtz if a stud like Tkachuk is available?
I don’t know what to think but I love reading what others think about what to do. It’s kinda stressful but fun .
Billdo
Registered User
Man you really don't like Nico
- Dec 20, 2018
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If you look at how many defensemen were drafted and where they were drafted it makes a lot of sense.
- Dec 20, 2018
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We still had the best players we had drafted over a long period of time, yes, that’s how teams works.
The debate is nonsense. Utter nonsense. There’s one team. I don’t root for a time period. And both GMs were pushed out of a window. It also warps (some) people’s analysis of all sorts of things to a ridiculous degree too.
There’s more continuity between the GMs’ tenure then (some) people want to admit. A couple people left immediately but Shero didn’t particularly aggressively house clean so the staff more slowly changed over time as more guys left, aged out and more additions were made. It took years to change.
Was actually the Preds that shit the bed in the playoffs and cost us a higher pick - the 'ol Hynes special. I think we would've actually gotten the 11th overall pick instead of 20th, since the Rangers moved up in the draft lottery.
John Hynes is a career 4-15 in the playoffs. Is that bad?
Forge
Blissfully Mediocre
Just going to say that I thought Zaitsev was pretty promising, I just don't think that he ever comes over. I think he's been pretty good in the KHL though if I remember right
JimEIV
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It's time to start trading pieces in my opinion.
Jack, Luke, and #2 are my most hopeful pieces for the future. Problem here is this group as a whole is probably 3 to 5 years away from full maturity assuming everything goes well.
Secondarily, Mercer and Bratt. Mercer we need to see progression...Bratt we
need to see some sustainability. But Bratt"s potential contract scares me a bit. Would hate to shell out 7+ for a winger that reverts to 50 points. At that point he's no longer an asset.
Otherwise I don't see any core pieces here. I would like see some roster moves packaged with prospects.
Mercer is a core piece but Hischier isn't?
What's the logic there?
Also what are you trying to trade for?
SKNJD9
Hi, I'm mat.
I think Jim is implying we already seen the best we're gonna get from Nico while Dawson has the potential to surpass that ? That being said I don't agree. We saw what Nico was able to put up...after playing hurt an a quarter of the season with Jimmy Vesey and Kuokannen as his wings.
Again, we need to start the rebuild with the first Shero draft, which was 2016.
I'm going to expand upon this by saying 7th round picks who don't make it are not necessarily bad picks. For when he was picked, Davies was an excellent selection because he was a Nashville trade target and made the AHL.
Finally, we need to consider what defensemen were available when criticizing a pick. This is to say, it's tough to critique picking Reilly Walsh in 2017 unless you can find a defenseman who would have been a better pick to compare against him. Now, I'm not exactly in the Walsh fan club -- I like a steadier defensive presence in my own preference. However, we also must factor in that Walsh was taken at #81 overall in a draft where there is exactly ONE defenseman who looks capable of being above-average at the NHL level (Mike Anderson, #103 overall to LA).
In 2018, we can look at the Ty Smith pick critically, because a much better LD was taken later in the first round in K'Andre Miller. Those who follow me know I actually ranked Miller higher than any other draft ranker in the continent, rating him as a viable top 10 pick. But we also should temper my own criticism by mentioning that Smith's consensus ranking was in the 10-15 range, while Miller's was probably 25-35.
I'm also going to say there's no "who" for Zaitsev or "who knows" for Misyul, because to be frank, I know. Both of them are viable NHL prospects as defensive LD for a bottom pair. As such, Misyul was a good 3rd round pick and Zaitsev was an outstanding 7th round pick. Particularly with Zaitsev, he was picked #205 overall, and out of every player available he has enjoyed the best pro career, though obviously it has thus far been in the KHL. Either way, good pick. With Misyul, it's a bit murkier because there were a few D drafted after him who would probably rank a bit higher right now, like Spence and Thrun.
Speaking of the 2019 draft, you also omitted our #1 RD prospect in Case McCarthy, who was an outstanding pick in the 4th round and remains on track to be a physical, defensively sound bottom-4 guy at the NHL level.
And of course there's Luke Hughes -- who is currently in a five-way battle for #1 prospect on the planet along with Byfield, Power, Beniers and Sanderson. If we stick with the 2020 draft, Mukhamadullin also looks like a sound, if not spectacular, pick at #20 overall. He's still a 1st-rounder in a re-draft, though I'd probably slot him slightly lower, in the 25-32 range.
Cheddabombs
Status Quo
- Mar 13, 2012
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My one contribution to this, to add some fuel to the fire, is that winning doesn't excuse poor drafting. Eventually it catches up to you. There are good players littered throughout most drafts, some of it is luck but your scouts ability plays a big role as well.
Drafting poor while losing exacerbates this issue, but make no mistake this team has been pretty terrible at drafting and developing for a long long time.
Drafting poor while losing exacerbates this issue, but make no mistake this team has been pretty terrible at drafting and developing for a long long time.
Devils731
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- Jun 23, 2008
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This makes sense. I think Fanatics accomplished it’s goal of owning a team to become embedded in the league’s sales environments but I didn’t know why he would ever want to cash out.
Attempting to grow a new revenue stream that precludes your ownership makes sense.
Billdo
Registered User
During the same time period, the much vaunted Nashville Predators drafted three defenseman who have or on their way towards playing more than 200 games: Sam Girard, Dante Fabbro and Seth Jones. Jones was a no-brainer pick at 4, and Fabbro was a first round pick who hasn't set the world on fire. Severson is also better than Fabbro and Girard, and is probably close to Seth Jones especially considering what Jones is paid.
Or, if you like, we can look at Tampa who since drafting Victor Hedman No. 2 overall in 2009, has drafted a grand total of 3 defenseman who have or likely will break the 200 game mark, Radko Gudas, Tony Deangelo and Cal Foote.
And that was without really thinking about it all too much.
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