Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[devilsblood]

Picking a strong exciting 6'4" goal-scoring winger over a boring but very competent 6'1" center because you're scared of fan backlash or because 'Nick Suzuki is good enough' is exactly the kind of thing Montreal would do.

I'm picking Slaf based off the bold.

 

[devilsblood]

Wouldn’t Robertson be an example of needing to give a guy a few years after being drafted to find his NHL role? Instead we see people wanting to write Holtz off (while saying they aren’t) for only being a point per game as a 19/20 year old in the AHL.

Count me in as someone who would be willing to trade Holtz for a proven goal scoring 26ish year old winger. And I say that because I am wary of his skating and if that limits his upside in the NHL.

But this is different then giving up on him.

 

[MachoDiablo]

4 pages of “let’s root for Dallas”.

Hischier is a great two way center, L Hughes has Makar season in universit being two years younger, Fifth rounder Gritsyuk is a rookie of the year in KHL, Mukhamadullin is a potential top-4 D, Holtz spend great season for 19 yo boy in AHL, Okhotyuk was best defensive defenseman in OHL, the best in board battles, he has huge shot down upside, Jack is the most talented young forward in the league, Zetterlund with Foote(I know he was a part of the trade) and Thompson have potential to be nhlers. Daws was ok and he was drafted year before he did try himself in NHL. Bratt and Yegor are gold. Bastian is only fourth liner, but he is perfect fourth liner, that’s ok for second rounders, sometimes you have robertson, much more often you have nothing. And Smith svcks of course. And Mercer is great.
im ok with Castron and drafting.

Dallas did tremendous job on the draft in 2017, but they did, other teams not. New Jersey made right pick with Hischier, he is exactly what teams need from him now. We don’t need Petterson for Nico. Makar is a better pick in vacuum, he would be great here, but not on the level with Mckinnon. It’s a specific examples. there is a 29/30 chances(31 from 32 now), you will find a better team on the draft. The most important thing to be a better team through years. Castron made a good job on drafts. Devils we’re not perfect on the draft, but overall - it’s good. Zacha, Mcleod shouldnt be picked. That was Shero’s idiotic anti defensive vision. He isn’t our gm anymore.
Now Fitz should make a right pick with 2nd OA. find working goalie, and find new right coach with giving development job to Ruff - this or may be next season. Other things are complimentary.

Yeah, I'm reading people saying "we suck at developing players" and I'm looking at the roster wondering where that conclusion is coming from. If we were talking, say, five years ago then yeah, I'd say we were still in the midst of not developing guys very well (e.g. rushing players like Zacha to the big leagues instead of allowing them to grow first), but it seems pretty clear to me that things have changed. Doesn't mean every pick is going to turn to gold or that every prospect will reach their ceiling, because no organization ever accomplishes that, but this is a club with a lot of talent both on its main roster and among its prospects, and most of it is still incredibly young and needs the chance to grow, which is what they're getting.

And I'll be a broken record on this: the whole "but we've been rebuilding for TEN YEARS!" argument isn't true. We're in this position right now because we spent years and years trying to compete and failing, thanks to having basically nothing in the prospect cupboards and losing most of our valuable big roster pieces in short order after the 2012 run (e.g. Parise/Clarkson/Kovy bolting, Elias/Marty/Sal/Greene etc. getting old or retiring, etc). If we'd really been rebuilding all this time, we wouldn't have dealt truckloads of 2nd round picks away for everyone from PK Subban to Mirco Muller, and we would've likely dealt Cory away while he was at the height of his value. The Devils didn't go full bore on "tear it down and get it right this time" until early 2020, and since then we've been stuck living through Pandemic World, which only complicates matters further when it comes to putting young players in position to develop well.

Sucking for 10 years is awful, we're universally in agreement on that, but that doesn't mean we can let it break our brains and make us forget how the draft works or how the Devils have actually been approaching team building during that timeframe. No team hits on all their draft picks, no team universally develops all their prospects well, and no team comes from the depths of where the Devils were as an organization circa 2013-2015 and builds a sustained winner in a short timeframe. It blows, we all know and agree, but that doesn't make the Devils some uniquely incompetent organization that can and will never do anything right.

 

[devilsblood]

The Devils didn't go full bore on "tear it down and get it right this time" until early 2020, and since then we've been stuck living through Pandemic World, which only complicates matters further when it comes to putting young players in position to develop well.

Sucking for 10 years is awful, we're universally in agreement on that, but that doesn't mean we can let it break our brains and make us forget how the draft works or how the Devils have actually been approaching team building during that timeframe. No team hits on all their draft picks, no team universally develops all their prospects well, and no team comes from the depths of where the Devils were as an organization circa 2013-2015 and builds a sustained winner in a short timeframe. It blows, we all know and agree, but that doesn't make the Devils some uniquely incompetent organization that can and will never do anything right.

I dunno, we signed Hamilton 1 year after that. Signed Tatar, Bernier, traded for Graves.

I don't think Fitz has approached this much different then Shero. It's been a hybrid rebuild.

I do think it's fair to make the distinction between 10 years of stink, as opposed to 10 years of a rebuild. Probably more accurate to say rebuild is on year 7 or 8.

 

[Forge]

NOTE: This is the tweet that started the rumor. McCagg is being a weirdo about Wright to Montreal and so I would wait for another source.



There won’t be a “confirmation” though.

He's going to will Montreal not taking Wright into existence lol. Its really weird how hard and creatively he's trying to push this narrative that Wright isn't the guy.

 

[Guttersniped]

He's going to will Montreal not taking Wright into existence lol. Its really weird how hard and creatively he's trying to push this narrative that Wright isn't the guy.

Lol

 

[Saugus]

He's going to will Montreal not taking Wright into existence lol. Its really weird how hard and creatively he's trying to push this narrative that Wright isn't the guy.

That Cooley rumor is even weirder than the Slafkovsky one. Even less likely than Nemec's agent knowing what the Habs are thinking, is another club knowing what the Habs will do. That sounds like not a real rumor to me, but rather some trash talk and speculation that is being transmuted into "insider knowledge".

I really can't wait for the draft so we can end all this nonsensical rumor-chasing. Yes, anything can happen at this point, but I still think the default scenario is still the most likely one and I would like it to hurry up and get here.

 

[Normal Devil]

The Devils should turf Ruff and hire Andrew Brunette if we can. Insane that Florida cut him loose.

Yeah .. just push Lindy into some front office gig and hire a a good young coach.

 

[Triumph]

I dunno, we signed Hamilton 1 year after that. Signed Tatar, Bernier, traded for Graves.

I don't think Fitz has approached this much different then Shero. It's been a hybrid rebuild.

I do think it's fair to make the distinction between 10 years of stink, as opposed to 10 years of a rebuild. Probably more accurate to say rebuild is on year 7 or 8.

He has because he has acquired 3 first round picks in trade whereas Shero obtained 0. And a lot of this is because Shero obtained things that were able to be traded for 1st round picks, but the Coleman trade is not something that Shero ever did - he never dealt a guy with a year+ left before UFA. Fitzgerald was punting the 2020-21 season before it began. There was a lot more in the cupboard so the pain was planned to be shorter, but there was deliberate pain.

 

[devilsblood]

He has because he has acquired 3 first round picks in trade whereas Shero obtained 0. And a lot of this is because Shero obtained things that were able to be traded for 1st round picks, but the Coleman trade is not something that Shero ever did - he never dealt a guy with a year+ left before UFA. Fitzgerald was punting the 2020-21 season before it began. There was a lot more in the cupboard so the pain was planned to be shorter, but there was deliberate pain.

Fair, Coleman for picks as opposed to Larsson for Hall.

And maybe Hamilton was more taking advantage of a rare opportunity as opposed to a change of direction organizationally.

Still once you sign Hamilton, and trade for Graves, and sign Tatar and Bernier, it does look like you're no longer in full rebuild mode.

So was Fitz in rebuild mode for 1.5 years? Sure.

 

[OmNomNom]

The Devils should turf Ruff and hire Andrew Brunette if we can. Insane that Florida cut him loose.

they did the same w gallant after being a jack adams finalist the year before lol

 

[Oneiro]

I don't even know if you can call what Shero and Fitz did a hybrid anything or even a re-tool.

In case you forgot, this team pissed away multiple seasons of a top 5 goalie simply because they couldn't score. So Hall, Palmieri, Johansson, Subban, Gusev, Johnsson all the way to Tatar has been about injecting goals onto a team that could not score without making egregious long term commitments.

Mixed results? Sure, but all of those deals were low risk bets. Would we have hit on one of those 2nd rounders? Probably, given the amount of them we gave away, but the probabilities still don't favor getting anyone on the level of the players we traded for.

In 2017, no one of any importance was picked in between the pick we gave for Mueller and our next pick of Zetterlund. The 2nd from the Palms trade, I guess you could have grabbed Cernak, Greenway, Dunn, Rasmus Andersson, Kylington - but do any of those guys impact the team more than Palmieri did? In 2019, Brink, Hoglander but at this point it's too early to tell on the remaining 2nds.

Broader point is that I don't think you sacrificed much to try to help the team score in the short-term and now there are still plenty of young guys to audition for the depth roles.

 

[devilsblood]

I don't even know if you can call what Shero and Fitz did a hybrid anything or even a re-tool.

In case you forgot, this team pissed away multiple seasons of a top 5 goalie simply because they couldn't score. So Hall, Palmieri, Johansson, Subban, Gusev, Johnsson all the way to Tatar has been about injecting goals onto a team that could not score without making egregious long term commitments.

Mixed results? Sure, but all of those deals were low risk bets. Would we have hit on one of those 2nd rounders? Probably, given the amount of them we gave away, but the probabilities still don't favor getting anyone on the level of the players we traded for.

In 2017, no one of any importance was picked in between the pick we gave for Mueller and our next pick of Zetterlund. The 2nd from the Palms trade, I guess you could have grabbed Cernak, Greenway, Dunn, Rasmus Andersson, Kylington - but do any of those guys impact the team more than Palmieri did? In 2019, Brink, Hoglander but at this point it's too early to tell on the remaining 2nds.

Broader point is that I don't think you sacrificed much to try to help the team score in the short-term and now there are still plenty of young guys to audition for the depth roles.

Fair too, but acquiring Palm's, Mueller, Johannson, and especially Hall, is not going full rebuild. They(maybe not Mojo and Mueller) buoyed us for a bit and hurt our draft positions.

Then we made midseason trades during a fringe playoff season.

And unlike Fitz who traded Coleman, Shero hung onto Cory.

 

[Blackjack]

Fair too, but acquiring Palm's, Mueller, Johannson, and especially Hall, is not going full rebuild. They(maybe not Mojo and Mueller) buoyed us for a bit and hurt our draft positions.

1st
18th
1st
7th
4th
2nd

And getting Hall… DEFINITELY didn’t hurt our draft position

 

[Oneiro]

Fair too, but acquiring Palm's, Mueller, Johannson, and especially Hall, is not going full rebuild. They(maybe not Mojo and Mueller) buoyed us for a bit and hurt our draft positions.

Then we made midseason trades during a fringe playoff season.

And unlike Fitz who traded Coleman, Shero hung onto Cory.

Well, the other aspect of it is that everyone, except for Mueller, was quite tradable. The upside in signing Boyle and Lovejoy is that you had character guys with experience and no term who were well-liked and could be flipped easily at the deadline. And of course, Mojo, Palmieri, Coleman and Hall were easily traded - unlike let's say a theoretical 40-50 pt. player on the downswing with 4 years remaining on his contract.

Those trades served multiple functions - replenishing tradable assets and adding some scoring to a starved team.

 

[JimEIV]

We've been rebuilding since 2015...if you want to argue 2016 I wouldn't fight that...

That's 7 or 8 years depending on the starting point. During that time we really haven't seen a single elite level performance from anyone other than Bratt and a half season from Hughes.

But one drafted player to have surpassed 60 points in the last 7 or 8 years? None with over 26 goals?

Considering all the bullets we've had at the draft table over the last years this is just futility

Looking around the league, just about every single team in the NHL has produced a 60+ point forward or 40+ point defenseman over last 8 years via the draft. There are a couple exceptions..Ranger have done a real shitty job, Montreal too...you look at team like Philly who has missed a ton and they still have produced a 40+ point Dman in Provorov and 60+ point forward in Konecny.

Ottawa and Detroit who has been in the same boat we are 50+ points from Chabot, 30 goals and 67 points from Tkachuk...50 points as rookie Dman from Seider.

Buffalo sucks and still have great performances from Eichel 40+ from Dahlin, 68 points from Tage Thompson

Anaheim Zegras 61 points drafted 2019 only as a rookie -Troy Terry drafted 2015 67 points.

Arizona Keller and Chychrun

Dallas we've been over ... Chicago DeBrincat - Carolina Aho and Svech - NYI Barzal and Dobson - Boston MacAvoy - Calgary Matthew Tkachuk - Colorado - Markar - Vancouver Peterson and Hughes - San Jose Meier - Columbus Werenski and ....You can go on an on... regardless it's harder to find a team that hasn't had an elite level performance from a draft pick in the last 8 years...

And for team that has had many picks and as many high picks as we've had over the last years to have had 1 solid performance from Bratt this year is unacceptable.

This entire expirement has been a disaster and you've got to believe this notion of collective decision making plays a large part.

Hope Jack continues to develop, Luke continues to develop and the #2 becomes a player for the future...but in large part, the majority of the last 8 years has been a waste of time.

 

[devilsblood]

1st
18th
1st
7th
4th
2nd

And getting Hall… DEFINITELY didn’t hurt our draft position

Ha, true.

 

[Triumph]

A lot of other garbage I scrolled past that fails to acknowledge that we've had 2 shortened seasons in the last 3

Buffalo sucks and still have great performances from Eichel 40+ from Dahlin, 68 points from Tage Thompson

Buffalo did not draft Tage Thompson. I guess now Taylor Hall's MVP season counts for Shero's drafting?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

We've been rebuilding since 2015...if you want to argue 2016 I wouldn't fight that...

That's 7 or 8 years depending on the starting point. During that time we really haven't seen a single elite level performance from anyone other than Bratt and a half season from Hughes.

But one drafted player to have surpassed 60 points in the last 7 or 8 years? None with over 26 goals?

Considering all the bullets we've had at the draft table over the last years this is just futility

Looking around the league, just about every single team in the NHL has produced a 60+ point forward or 40+ point defenseman over last 8 years via the draft. There are a couple exceptions..Ranger have done a real shitty job, Montreal too...you look at team like Philly who has missed a ton and they still have produced a 40+ point Dman in Provorov and 60+ point forward in Konecny.

Ottawa and Detroit who has been in the same boat we are 50+ points from Chabot, 30 goals and 67 points from Tkachuk...50 points as rookie Dman from Seider.

Buffalo sucks and still have great performances from Eichel 40+ from Dahlin, 68 points from Tage Thompson

Anaheim Zegras 61 points drafted 2019 only as a rookie -Troy Terry drafted 2015 67 points.

Arizona Keller and Chychrun

Dallas we've been over ... Chicago DeBrincat - Carolina Aho and Svech - NYI Barzal and Dobson - Boston MacAvoy - Calgary Matthew Tkachuk - Colorado - Markar - Vancouver Peterson and Hughes - San Jose Meier - Columbus Werenski and ....You can go on an on... regardless it's harder to find a team that hasn't had an elite level performance from a draft pick in the last 8 years...

And for team that has had many picks and as many high picks as we've had over the last years to have had 1 solid performance from Bratt this year is unacceptable.

This entire expirement has been a disaster and you've got to believe this notion of collective decision making plays a large part.

Hope Jack continues to develop, Luke continues to develop and the #2 becomes a player for the future...but in large part, the majority of the last 8 years has been a waste of time.

The “experiment” has been dealing with the reality that your guy left the team in absolute shambles. A disgrace, if you will.

 

[HBK27]

Looking around the league, just about every single team in the NHL has produced a 60+ point forward or 40+ point defenseman over last 8 years via the draft. There are a couple exceptions..Ranger have done a real shitty job, Montreal too...you look at team like Philly who has missed a ton and they still have produced a 40+ point Dman in Provorov and 60+ point forward in Konecny.

Ottawa and Detroit who has been in the same boat we are 50+ points from Chabot, 30 goals and 67 points from Tkachuk...50 points as rookie Dman from Seider.

Buffalo sucks and still have great performances from Eichel 40+ from Dahlin, 68 points from Tage Thompson

Anaheim Zegras 61 points drafted 2019 only as a rookie -Troy Terry drafted 2015 67 points.

Arizona Keller and Chychrun

Dallas we've been over ... Chicago DeBrincat - Carolina Aho and Svech - NYI Barzal and Dobson - Boston MacAvoy - Calgary Matthew Tkachuk - Colorado - Markar - Vancouver Peterson and Hughes - San Jose Meier - Columbus Werenski and ....You can go on an on... regardless it's harder to find a team that hasn't had an elite level performance from a draft pick in the last 8 years...

And we're in a much better position moving forward than many of these teams you've mentioned.

I think we're ahead of Ottawa, Detroit & Buffalo and have a brighter future. Anaheim is thin behind Zegras. Arizona is going full scortched earth. DeBrincat's a good player, but they're looking to move him to rebuild after giving up a ton to get Seth Jones and vastly overpay him just a year ago. Vancouver is also a rudderless ship. San Jose may be the organization in the worst shape in the league. Islanders have an old roster and missed the playoffs last season. Boston appears to be heading towards a rebuild. Columbus sucks and has a thin prospect pool.

 

[devilsblood]

We've been rebuilding since 2015...if you want to argue 2016 I wouldn't fight that...

That's 7 or 8 years depending on the starting point. During that time we really haven't seen a single elite level performance from anyone other than Bratt and a half season from Hughes.

But one drafted player to have surpassed 60 points in the last 7 or 8 years? None with over 26 goals?

Considering all the bullets we've had at the draft table over the last years this is just futility

Looking around the league, just about every single team in the NHL has produced a 60+ point forward or 40+ point defenseman over last 8 years via the draft. There are a couple exceptions..Ranger have done a real shitty job, Montreal too...you look at team like Philly who has missed a ton and they still have produced a 40+ point Dman in Provorov and 60+ point forward in Konecny.

Ottawa and Detroit who has been in the same boat we are 50+ points from Chabot, 30 goals and 67 points from Tkachuk...50 points as rookie Dman from Seider.

Buffalo sucks and still have great performances from Eichel 40+ from Dahlin, 68 points from Tage Thompson

Anaheim Zegras 61 points drafted 2019 only as a rookie -Troy Terry drafted 2015 67 points.

Arizona Keller and Chychrun

Dallas we've been over ... Chicago DeBrincat - Carolina Aho and Svech - NYI Barzal and Dobson - Boston MacAvoy - Calgary Matthew Tkachuk - Colorado - Markar - Vancouver Peterson and Hughes - San Jose Meier - Columbus Werenski and ....You can go on an on... regardless it's harder to find a team that hasn't had an elite level performance from a draft pick in the last 8 years...

And for team that has had many picks and as many high picks as we've had over the last years to have had 1 solid performance from Bratt this year is unacceptable.

This entire expirement has been a disaster and you've got to believe this notion of collective decision making plays a large part.

Hope Jack continues to develop, Luke continues to develop and the #2 becomes a player for the future...but in large part, the majority of the last 8 years has been a waste of time.

Hughes and Zegras were drafted the same season. I know Jack needs to stay healthy, but he had 5 less points then Zegras in 30 fewer games.

I think we also see a lot of good solid young players, ie Nico, Mercer, Shara if not high end superstars.

Then factor in those guys who are still pure prospects, ie Luke, Holtz, Shak.

So yeah, long arduous haul here, but waste of time is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Eggtimer]

We've been rebuilding since 2015...if you want to argue 2016 I wouldn't fight that...

That's 7 or 8 years depending on the starting point. During that time we really haven't seen a single elite level performance from anyone other than Bratt and a half season from Hughes.

But one drafted player to have surpassed 60 points in the last 7 or 8 years? None with over 26 goals?

Considering all the bullets we've had at the draft table over the last years this is just futility

Looking around the league, just about every single team in the NHL has produced a 60+ point forward or 40+ point defenseman over last 8 years via the draft. There are a couple exceptions..Ranger have done a real shitty job, Montreal too...you look at team like Philly who has missed a ton and they still have produced a 40+ point Dman in Provorov and 60+ point forward in Konecny.

Ottawa and Detroit who has been in the same boat we are 50+ points from Chabot, 30 goals and 67 points from Tkachuk...50 points as rookie Dman from Seider.

Buffalo sucks and still have great performances from Eichel 40+ from Dahlin, 68 points from Tage Thompson

Anaheim Zegras 61 points drafted 2019 only as a rookie -Troy Terry drafted 2015 67 points.

Arizona Keller and Chychrun

Dallas we've been over ... Chicago DeBrincat - Carolina Aho and Svech - NYI Barzal and Dobson - Boston MacAvoy - Calgary Matthew Tkachuk - Colorado - Markar - Vancouver Peterson and Hughes - San Jose Meier - Columbus Werenski and ....You can go on an on... regardless it's harder to find a team that hasn't had an elite level performance from a draft pick in the last 8 years...

And for team that has had many picks and as many high picks as we've had over the last years to have had 1 solid performance from Bratt this year is unacceptable.

This entire expirement has been a disaster and you've got to believe this notion of collective decision making plays a large part.

Hope Jack continues to develop, Luke continues to develop and the #2 becomes a player for the future...but in large part, the majority of the last 8 years has been a waste of time.

I wonder if it is our drafting is shitty , or our player development is shitty , combination of both or just bad luck where the drafts we have picks in , are not great?

 

[MauDevils]

People are bringing up Lou again. Drink.

 

[RangerDoggo]

Pretty sure this is Ruff's last year unless he massively overachieves. This is the last year of his contract. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes to the front office in a player development role after that. I'm convinced the public support of Hughes and the behind-the-scenes support of Hischier saved his ass.

 

[devilsblood]

The “experiment” has been dealing with the reality that your guy left the team in absolute shambles. A disgrace, if you will.

I know this is as much about taking a well deserved jab at Jim as anything, but the Lou left this place in "absolute shambles" thing can def be argued against.

Not a great situation for sure, we stunk, but there were def tradeable pieces when he left, some of which were taken advantage of him, others(ie Cory) which were not, and even now there are more tradable pieces from his time here still on the roster.

I mean, the Shero narrative is now switching to "well he was never really in rebuild mode", which was certainly not the narrative during much of his time here, and does say something about Lou and what assets were on the roster when he left.