Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

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nugg

NJ Hammerhead Bats!
Apr 27, 2002
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This is where the major disconnect is...for me anyway.

You put a garbage product on the ice and only win 28 games to get the 1st overall. You have to pretty much endure shit for an entire season to get that pick. The expectation for that suffering is an impact player in my mind...not a Henrique or Langenbrunner level player...I love those kind of players on my team but not for the cost of a 28 win lost season with a #1 overall.

And that is part of the disconnect...most everyone doesn't seem to see it as an actual cost...that first overall cost a season and we haven't gotten the return on a lost season...

But that's only a small part of bigger problem... so did the #6, the #11, the other #1, the #7, #4 and now the #2 cost an entire season...that first #1 is just the poster boy for the lack of return we got for 7 dreadful seasons. That's how I see it.

and if some GM got giddy over a Captain with intangibles and a #1 overall pedigree and would trade us a big strapping wing that could score 30+ like say Tkachuk...bye-bye


Did you say something here?
We were a little lucky to get that #1 pick. We have NEVER finished dead last, not once in 40 years. Then 2 years later we got it again! and now #2. Count your blessings! Slaf is the next Jagr, bank on it! :laugh: (well, maybe, you never know! :naughty: )
 

PKs Broken Stick

Registered User
Oct 9, 2008
9,664
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I think you misread me. I was saying Fitz needs to do whatever Ray was doing. Giving more power to Castron was an assumption of what would accomplish that. Tom's drafts, ugh. I sure hope he reads Steve's sleepers lists this time LOL.

No, I know what you were saying. Castron is a scout, not assistant gm. There's no way a gm would let the scout decide how to build the team. I could see a situation where the gm would lean a bit more on their assistant gm with help on that.
 

TBF1972

Registered User
May 19, 2018
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So if we were to land Gaudreau from UFA, we could theoretically end up with something like this if we proceed to trade the 2OA pick + some other younger assets as well:

I'm assuming we'd lose Zacha, Smith, Holtz, and 2ndOA for Tkachuk or Debrincat.

F:
Bratt-Hughes-Sharangovich
Tkachuk/Debrincat-Gaudreau-Johnsson(cheap extn)
Mercer-Hischier-Tatar(cheap extn)
Foote-McLeod/Kuokkanen-Wood

D:
Hamilton-Severson
Hughes-Siegs
Bahl-Graves/Muk

G:
Blackwood-beachball

We could then try to leverage anything we still have beyond that to fix goaltending, unless Blackwood has a resurgence.

There's no way that's still a losing team. But if it didn't work out, we'd also kind of mess up a future window we may be building right now.
:thumbd:

i would like to see your cap calculations. i am not even sure if we could make it work under the salary cap in the first year. i have that roster above 83m:
gaudreau at 9.5m
tkachuck at 9.0m
bratt at 7.0m
wood at 1.5m
bernier/beachball at 4.125m/?

it also assumes l.hughes to be ready next season.

it will be even worse next summer, when we have to resign or replace basically our whole defense + rango. mercer would be cap casualty most likely as well.
 
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TBF1972

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May 19, 2018
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Trade 2nd overall + Foote for DeBrincat.
Trade Holtz for Fiala.
Sign Marchment
Sign Campbell/Husso
Re-sign Subban.
Trade away Zacha, Kuokkanen, Tatar

Sharangovich - Hughes - DeBrincat
Fiala - Hischier - Bratt
Marchment - Boqvist - Mercer
Wood - McLeod - Bastian
Johnsson, Zetterlund

Graves - Hamilton
Siegenthaler - Severson
Smith - Subban
Okhotiuk

Blackwood
Campbell/Husso

i would love to see the deals you expect fiala, marchment, boqvist, wood, zetterlund, subban and the goalie sign for.

i think it's unrealistic from a cap perspective. especially next summer, when the teams needs to resign or replace: debrincat, rango, severson, graves, siegenthaler, smith and blackwood. either we let debrincat walk (after spending huge assets on him) or we play with a baind-aid defensive core.

either fiala or debrincat is possible. my vote is for none of them.
 

TBF1972

Registered User
May 19, 2018
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I had a dream last night that included Bratt signing a $7.5mil deal with some other team. Wasn't happy about it.
an offer sheet for 6 or 7 years would land in the compensation category for 2 first, a second and a third. for shorter term the compensation would be first, second and third.

the teams with the required picks are:
anaheim, arizona, carolina, chicago, columbus, detroit, edmonton, la, montreal, nashville, islanders, ottawa, san jose, seattle and vancouver.

la and nashville would be the biggest threads, but both are no sure fire playoff teams. i can't see carolina doing it. edmonton lacks the cap space. the islanders need to take care of dobson first. the other teams are likely lottery teams, who won't gamble their tickets for bedard away.

an offer sheet for bratt is unlikely.
 
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TBF1972

Registered User
May 19, 2018
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Sharangovich will definitely in line for a raise from 2m if he scores +25 goals next season.

Even if he makes 4.5m that’s still an extra 2.5m we need to find.

Once cap space gets tighter salaries start to get a lot more important. We’re just used to ignoring them.
and when the salary cap raises, so will the ask of agents and players.
 

Better Call Sal

Salnalysis
Nov 24, 2011
26,059
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0c7.gif


Me anytime shade is thrown Nico's way.
 

OlfactoryHughes

Registered User
Aug 8, 2007
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I hate when you guys say McDavid or Matthews like there is some kind of over the top expectation for a #1 overall

He's not better than any #1 overall forward in the last 40 years other than the obvious bust in Yakopov, Stefan, Daigle and Lawton.. RNH then Nico then Joe Murphy....that's literally the worst of the forwards taken #1 overall for the last 40 years...

So the "not McDavid or Matthews" thing is pretty ridiculous.
What an immature take. What’s Nico supposed to do un-pick himself? Blaming the player for things outside of anyones control, like who’s available in certain draft year, and how they are ranked at the time is pretty ridiculous.

Has absolutely nothing to do with Nico, and his value rn. Just your inflated expectations. Sorry to tell you, and all the other elementary level fans out there, the world doesn’t turn out McDavid’s every year.
 

Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
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Wingers are less valuable than centers. There’s a reason they’re often on the market while centers almost never appear and only few superstar wingers get 8 year deals from teams.

Who gives a shit how strapping a wing is, a line doesn’t function without a center.

We watched this team struggle at center for what, 15 years? It has never really been a strength of the franchise except maybe from 2000 to 2002, when the Devils were also super strong at wing and on defense. From when Nieuwendyk left onward, center's been a weakness - sliding Elias over to center was helpful and Elias is incredible, but I would never call center a strength for the franchise until this season. Finally - finally! - it's just everything else that needs upgrading.
 

Stephen Gionta

Boston College > Boston University
Jun 15, 2015
6,392
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East Rutherford, NJ
i would love to see the deals you expect fiala, marchment, boqvist, wood, zetterlund, subban and the goalie sign for.

i think it's unrealistic from a cap perspective. especially next summer, when the teams needs to resign or replace: debrincat, rango, severson, graves, siegenthaler, smith and blackwood. either we let debrincat walk (after spending huge assets on him) or we play with a baind-aid defensive core.

either fiala or debrincat is possible. my vote is for none of them.

Fiala - 6 years, 6.85 million AAV
Marchment - 4 years, 3 million AAV
Boqvist - 2 years, 1.1 million AAV
Wood - 2 years, 3 million AAV
Zetterlund - 2 years, 850K AAV
Subban - 1 year, 1-1.5 million AAV
Husso - 3/4 years, 3.5-4 million AAV

Severson extension - 5/6 years, 5.25 million AAV
DeBrincat extension - 8 years, 8.5 million AAV
Siegenthaler extension - 6-8 years, 4 million AAV

---------------------------------------

Mercer is an untouchable in my opinion.

For clarity: Definition of untouchable in NHL terms = Not available for trade in any realistic trade.
If Chicago offered DeBrincat and their 2023 1st for Mercer, obviously we take that. But that's not realistic
 

jkrdevil

UnRegistered User
Apr 24, 2006
43,065
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Miami
Sigh. How many times have we been through this. Makar would likely not be Makar if he was drafted by NJ first overall. That obviously an indictment of the organization, but we just didn’t have the support system of talent around that would have allowed him to flourish the same way.

Remember, Makar was basically Colorado’s last piece that put them over the top as a contender.
 

My3Sons

Nobody told me there'd be days like these...
Sponsor
Sigh. How many times have we been through this. Makar would likely not be Makar if he was drafted by NJ first overall. That obviously an indictment of the organization, but we just didn’t have the support system of talent around that would have allowed him to flourish the same way.

Remember, Makar was basically Colorado’s last piece that put them over the top as a contender.
Makar is so talented and skilled he'd still be an excellent player in NJ by now. The issue is his defense is nothing special and if Zacha is the number two center is Makar really going to produce as well as he does in Colorado outside the PP? On balance, he'd likely still be a "better" player than Hischier to me, but he'd be seen as somewhat flawed and one dimensional. More or less like Quinn Hughes in Vancouver. Great player but not the guy you want defending a lead late in a game and someone that can be neutralized with heavy checking in the playoffs (which to be fair happened last season to Makar).
 

Normal Devil

Registered User
Mar 16, 2014
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I'm really torn on these potential trades. After thinking it over a bit I'm not willing to give up assets like Mercer, Holtz or pick #2 unless it's for a truly elite player. I think for Matthew Tkachuk, or David Pastrnak it would be easier to swallow ... for players like DeBrincat and Meier a bit tougher. I wouldn't part with any of those assets for Kevin Fiala. In the end we are probably best off to select at #2 and keep Mercer and Holtz. Hopefully free agency will provide an opportunity to add some impact without having to give up anything other than dough.
 

TBF1972

Registered User
May 19, 2018
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Fiala - 6 years, 6.85 million AAV
Marchment - 4 years, 3 million AAV
Boqvist - 2 years, 1.1 million AAV
Wood - 2 years, 3 million AAV
Zetterlund - 2 years, 850K AAV
Subban - 1 year, 1-1.5 million AAV
Husso - 3/4 years, 3.5-4 million AAV

Severson extension - 5/6 years, 5.25 million AAV
DeBrincat extension - 8 years, 8.5 million AAV
Siegenthaler extension - 6-8 years, 4 million AAV

---------------------------------------

Mercer is an untouchable in my opinion.

For clarity: Definition of untouchable in NHL terms = Not available for trade in any realistic trade.
If Chicago offered DeBrincat and their 2023 1st for Mercer, obviously we take that. But that's not realistic
low:
fiala
subban
boqvist (if you use kuokkanen as a comparable)
siegenthaler (if term is 8 years, but i wouldn't expect him to sign for 8 years, as he just got started as a top 4 d)

potentially fine, but i would expect them to get more:
severson
debrincat

generous:
wood (after losing a full year to injury)
 

AfroThunder396

[citation needed]
Jan 8, 2006
39,608
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Miami, FL
Not to be that guy to use that excuse but the season long grind probably got to him. We saw a similar thing with Bratt in 17-18 as well, it's tough to ask these kids at 18-19 to play the style of hockey for a full 82 games. I like Mercer a lot though than most Devils fans do so it could be some bias in my thinking with him. He reminds me a lot of Parise when I watched him last year.
There's definitely reasons. All I'm saying is that Mercer had a good rookie season. He did not have a great rookie season, nor has he done anything to make him untouchable. He is a very talented young player who I think will have an very nice career but I don't consider him a cornerstone of the franchise.

That said - his age, ELC, and production combined make it very very difficult to find a trade scenario where we get rid of Mercer but still improve. It would have to be for one of the unicorn players like Matthew Tkachuk or Alex Debrincat. But I don't think he's absolutely off the table in the same way that Jack/Nico/Bratt/Luke are.
 
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guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
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Sigh. How many times have we been through this. Makar would likely not be Makar if he was drafted by NJ first overall. That obviously an indictment of the organization, but we just didn’t have the support system of talent around that would have allowed him to flourish the same way.

Remember, Makar was basically Colorado’s last piece that put them over the top as a contender.
I’m not trying to pick on you, but why do people overvalue the impact an organization can have on a player this way? Makar is a generational talent. He could have gone to Buffalo and he’d still wind up as good as he is. He’s on a different level than 95% of NHL players, his path may have looked a bit different, maybe even been slightly delayed in a less optimal environment, but 100% he’d still be who he is today.
 

FooteBahl

Took a big shitz for Nemec
Jul 19, 2005
5,491
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I'm really torn on these potential trades. After thinking it over a bit I'm not willing to give up assets like Mercer, Holtz or pick #2 unless it's for a truly elite player. I think for Matthew Tkachuk, or David Pastrnak it would be easier to swallow ... for players like DeBrincat and Meier a bit tougher. I wouldn't part with any of those assets for Kevin Fiala. In the end we are probably best off to select at #2 and keep Mercer and Holtz. Hopefully free agency will provide an opportunity to add some impact without having to give up anything other than dough.
I’m with you. I want to see the rebuild from within come to fruition without giving up Mercer/Holtz/#2/Gristyuk et Al. I couldn’t care less if we traded Zacha and other prospects to get help though…I think Smith could be expendable, but we would be selling low on him. If he bounces back from his sophomore slump, I wouldn’t be opposed to dealing him for a haul at the deadline if we’re out of the playoff picture or next off season if Luke is ready.

I’d much rather take a run at Nichuskin/Neiderrieter and save our boys—this is hockey’s future!!!
 

ChicksDigTheTrap

No quick fixes, no cutting corners and no cheating
Sep 16, 2018
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I'm really torn on these potential trades. After thinking it over a bit I'm not willing to give up assets like Mercer, Holtz or pick #2 unless it's for a truly elite player. I think for Matthew Tkachuk, or David Pastrnak it would be easier to swallow ... for players like DeBrincat and Meier a bit tougher. I wouldn't part with any of those assets for Kevin Fiala. In the end we are probably best off to select at #2 and keep Mercer and Holtz. Hopefully free agency will provide an opportunity to add some impact without having to give up anything other than dough.
Not me. I am one of those people that thinks "what would I do if I knew I would not fail?" The Devils should dare to be great and use the pick, A potential hit at pick 2 performing on a ELC/RFA contract is FAR more valuable than Tkachuk, Pasta, etc at a UFA rate. If the Avs played it safe and traded Pick 4 in 2017 for a "sure thing" because they were in a long rebuild they would not nearly be as good as they are now.
 
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