Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Mercer had scoreless streaks of 10 games and 9 games this year. He was terribly inconsistent, and considering he was chained to either Bratt or Hughes for pretty much the entire season I'm not sold on him being the answer.

His production after from Dec 1st until the end of the year was worse than Zacha's and just a hair better than Boqvist's. When he was asked to be the one to drive his own line he was not able to do it.

He's young and still developing. He'll be a very good top-6 player, but for a guy who is celebrated for his work ethic and two-way game he sure is really bad at consistency and defense.

Not to be that guy to use that excuse but the season long grind probably got to him. We saw a similar thing with Bratt in 17-18 as well, it's tough to ask these kids at 18-19 to play the style of hockey for a full 82 games. I like Mercer a lot though than most Devils fans do so it could be some bias in my thinking with him. He reminds me a lot of Parise when I watched him last year.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I am not trading Mercer for Fiala. His upside plus how cost controlled he is makes him too valuable. Return has to be bigger to make him available

 

[NJDevs26]

Not to be that guy to use that excuse but the season long grind probably got to him.

That and nobody wants to acknowledge his production decreased on the wing too when we're just blindly penciling him in for a top six wing. Maybe he's just a better center, but people are paranoid about OMGZ 3C's get no time! He'll get his icetime one way or another, hell they could give him a few shifts on wing too and have him play both Brylin-style if they really wanted.

 

[My3Sons]

That and nobody wants to acknowledge his production decreased on the wing too when we're just blindly penciling him in for a top six wing. Maybe he's just a better center, but people are paranoid about OMGZ 3C's get no time! He'll get his icetime one way or another, hell they could give him a few shifts on wing too and have him play both Brylin-style if they really wanted.

Correlation isn’t necessarily causation. It could be positional it could be fatigue it could be they asked him to focus more on defense. He’s a smart kid and fearless and skilled. I think he will figure it out and be successful no Matter where they play him.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Trading Nico for Fiala is just stupid. Why would we rip a major hole in our forward line up for a winger?

Even if you want to ignore Nico ended the season scoring at a top line rate, he is an all situational top 6 center and this franchise has no one that can replace that.

All of Mercer, Zacha, and Boqvist can't replace Nico in that center spot

 

[Eggtimer]

Some of you guys just want an all-star roster don't you. Bastian is a perfect 4th liner. Mcleod is a serviceable 4th liner, if he stays in that role. I agree if someone else emerges from the system and is as good, then replace him maybe.

in a perfect world id want Motte on our 4th line but first things first. Goalie and getting harder to play against / good defensively forwards and a RHD.
I just think it woudl be addition by subtraction if we moved Zacha Johnson Tatar. Alll three are shit defensively and provide zero intangibles. Id say a revamped 3rd line would help us win more games than adding a Fiala ( not to mention who we woild lose as a result.No way it should be pick #2 . We need exactly the type of player Slafkovsky is. Why the hell would you pass on the cahnce to add an elite , young , const controlled piece like that...)

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

That and nobody wants to acknowledge his production decreased on the wing too when we're just blindly penciling him in for a top six wing. Maybe he's just a better center, but people are paranoid about OMGZ 3C's get no time! He'll get his icetime one way or another, hell they could give him a few shifts on wing too and have him play both Brylin-style if they really wanted.

I thought he looked pretty good at the wing for his first couple of games and then he died off along with when the fatigue hit him. It's not like how when we played Jack there and he looked awful from jump, Mercer looked a little better there so I think it's probably why people are penciling him in there.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

in a perfect world id want Motte on our 4th line but first things first. Goalie and getting harder to play against / good defensively forwards and a RHD.
I just think it woudl be addition by subtraction if we moved Zacha Johnson Tatar. Alll three are shit defensively and provide zero intangibles. Id say a revamped 3rd line would help us win more games than adding a Fiala ( not to mention who we woild lose as a result.No way it should be pick #2 . We need exactly the type of player Slafkovsky is. Why the hell would you pass on the cahnce to add an elite , young , const controlled piece like that...)

Why would you want Motte over Bastian? That's not an upgrade at all. Bastian is fine here as a 4th liner. There's way more important things that need to be taken care of, and when they do the 4th is w/e.

 

[JimEIV]

Mercer was just about even from the first half to the second half.

Mercer first half (through 41 games) 9 goals and 22 points -4 -.

2nd half (42 through 82 ) 8 goals and 12 assist- 20 points assist -21

In 20 game increments
1 through 20 - 6 goals 8 assist 14 points + 12

21 through 40 - 3 goals 5 assist 8 points -14

41 through 60 - 5 goals 7 assist 12 points -2

61 through 82 - 3 goals 5 assist 8 points -21

*** His last 11 games he had 1 point - a goal and he was -13

 

[JimEIV]

Maybe just a coincidence but Mercer's crappy streak at the end of the season corresponds almost exactly with being eliminated from playoff contention on March 31st in an 8-1 loss to Boston...

I'm sure everyone in the organization knew it was coming well before that...but it's pretty remarkable that pretty much right after elimination day he goes dead.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

That and nobody wants to acknowledge his production decreased on the wing too when we're just blindly penciling him in for a top six wing. Maybe he's just a better center, but people are paranoid about OMGZ 3C's get no time! He'll get his icetime one way or another, hell they could give him a few shifts on wing too and have him play both Brylin-style if they really wanted.

Pretty sure his production dropped off before that switch actually happened.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I hate when you guys say McDavid or Matthews like there is some kind of over the top expectation for a #1 overall

He's not better than any #1 overall forward in the last 40 years other than the obvious bust in Yakopov, Stefan, Daigle and Lawton.. RNH then Nico then Joe Murphy....that's literally the worst of the forwards taken #1 overall for the last 40 years...

So the "not McDavid or Matthews" thing is pretty ridiculous.

That is all so irrelevant and is exactly my point. He was the right pick at the time and he has turned into a very good and very valuable player and leader to this team.

How he compares to other 1st overall picks is pretty damn irrelevant and that was exactly the point I was making.
I couldn’t give two shits how other first overall picks in the last 40 years have done. It doesn’t affect how good of a player he is in the slightest or the value he holds and I’d much rather have him than Nolan Patrick.

What’s ridiculous is thinking where he was taken in the draft has any impact on how valuable he is. The fact that your response to this Hischier talk is to talk about how he compares to other 1st overall picks is literally proving what I was talking about even if you’re not comparing him to Mcdavid or Matthews.

 

[Smitty426]

Why not draft Slaf at 2, Add a couple of the UFA wingers (Nichuskin, Burakovsky, Marchment) a bottom RHD (Lybushkin-like) or trade for bit better a UFA G in Husso or similar! Move some later picks to move up for some RHD help and move on! If you could get a UFA top tier winger without it being stupid, sure. Trading 6 pcs for Debrincat etc is silly.

 

[nugg]

I don't think that's how it really works. Yes, obviously there is level of trust/authority but not in the way you're thinking. The GM sets the standard and a blueprint of what kind of players he wants, and then the scouts go find those players who fit those criteria. And this is why I'm kind of worried, Fitz drafting style has not looked very good. If for some reason you think it's not on the gm, just look at the drastic differences in the drafting from shero to fitz with largely the same scouting staff.

I think you misread me. I was saying Fitz needs to do whatever Ray was doing. Giving more power to Castron was an assumption of what would accomplish that. Tom's drafts, ugh. I sure hope he reads Steve's sleepers lists this time LOL.

 

[Triumph]

I hate when you guys say McDavid or Matthews like there is some kind of over the top expectation for a #1 overall

He's not better than any #1 overall forward in the last 40 years other than the obvious bust in Yakopov, Stefan, Daigle and Lawton.. RNH then Nico then Joe Murphy....that's literally the worst of the forwards taken #1 overall for the last 40 years...

So the "not McDavid or Matthews" thing is pretty ridiculous.

Yes, you're right, we definitely should've expected that level of player - wait a minute, what's this? Oh, players played hockey before being drafted? And we can compare those results? .... and we did this two years ago?

Crosby: 2.71
McDavid: 2.55
Kane: 2.5
Hall: 1.86
Tavares: 1.86 (but had put up 2 PPG the two years previous)
Stamkos: 1.72
MacKinnon: 1.70
Yakupov: 1.64
Nugent-Hopkins: 1.54
Hischier: 1.5
(Nolan Patrick: 1.39 PPG)

Yeah, I don't know why Hischier isn't Connor McDavid or Patrick Kane, I just don't know what went wrong here.

 

[JimEIV]

That is all so irrelevant and is exactly my point. He was the right pick at the time and he has turned into a very good and very valuable player and leader to this team.

How he compares to other 1st overall picks is pretty damn irrelevant and that was exactly the point I was making.
I couldn’t give two shits how other first overall picks in the last 40 years have done. It doesn’t affect how good of a player he is in the slightest or the value he holds and I’d much rather have him than Nolan Patrick.

This is where the major disconnect is...for me anyway.

You put a garbage product on the ice and only win 28 games to get the 1st overall. You have to pretty much endure shit for an entire season to get that pick. The expectation for that suffering is an impact player in my mind...not a Henrique or Langenbrunner level player...I love those kind of players on my team but not for the cost of a 28 win lost season with a #1 overall.

And that is part of the disconnect...most everyone doesn't seem to see it as an actual cost...that first overall cost a season and we haven't gotten the return on a lost season...

But that's only a small part of bigger problem... so did the #6, the #11, the other #1, the #7, #4 and now the #2 cost an entire season...that first #1 is just the poster boy for the lack of return we got for 7 dreadful seasons. That's how I see it.

and if some GM got giddy over a Captain with intangibles and a #1 overall pedigree and would trade us a big strapping wing that could score 30+ like say Tkachuk...bye-bye

Yes, you're right, we definitely should've expected that level of player - wait a minute, what's this? Oh, players played hockey before being drafted? And we can compare those results? .... and we did this two years ago?

Crosby: 2.71
McDavid: 2.55
Kane: 2.5
Hall: 1.86
Tavares: 1.86 (but had put up 2 PPG the two years previous)
Stamkos: 1.72
MacKinnon: 1.70
Yakupov: 1.64
Nugent-Hopkins: 1.54
Hischier: 1.5
(Nolan Patrick: 1.39 PPG)

Yeah, I don't know why Hischier isn't Connor McDavid or Patrick Kane, I just don't know what went wrong here.

Did you say something here?

 

[Triumph]

Did you say something here?

Yes, that Nico Hischier's junior hockey numbers are nowhere close to most 1st overalls, and what he's turned out to be is what should've been expected of him. He's a 1C who does it all but he doesn't have a standout skill.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Holy
Shit


It was either going to be Hischier or Nolan in that spot. That was literally the choice from the consensus of the scouts.

My god, MY GOD….imagine being this obsessed and consumed with pointless narratives that mean absolutely nothing.

 

[McDuffz88]

Complaining about Nico is crazy. Hindsight is always 20/20 and the draft came out to Nico or Nolan. We made the best pick. Would it of been nice to get Makar? Sure there's always sleepers in every draft but it happens. I can understand if we got a bust but we didn't. Right now Nico is our #1 center. He may not put up the huge points but he does everything right, makes no mistakes, and is a complete 200 foot player that can play in all situations. We have the perfect 1/2 center combo with him & Hughes. We shouldn't be complaining. Let Hughes be our offensive all star while Nico gets the harder minutes. Get Nico another top 6 winger and I'm sure his production gets even better.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

This is where the major disconnect is...for me anyway.

You put a garbage product on the ice and only win 28 games to get the 1st overall. You have to pretty much endure shit for an entire season to get that pick. The expectation for that suffering is an impact player in my mind...not a Henrique or Langenbrunner level player...I love those kind of players on my team but not for the cost of a 28 win lost season with a #1 overall.

And that is part of the disconnect...most everyone doesn't seem to see it as an actual cost...that first overall cost a season and we haven't gotten the return on a lost season...

But that's only a small part of bigger problem... so did the #6, the #11, the other #1, the #7, #4 and now the #2 cost an entire season...that first #1 is just the poster boy for the lack of return we got for 7 dreadful seasons. That's how I see it.

and if some GM got giddy over a Captain with intangibles and a #1 overall pedigree and would trade us a big strapping wing that could score 30+ like say Tkachuk...bye-bye


Did you say something here?

Lol none of that has even the slightest impact on what his actual value is today and further goes my point. Everything you said was completely irrelevant to what we are talking about. I think you’re missing the point. Calling Nico the poster boy for a lack of return is just hilariously stupid. Such a dumb reach.

But yes we would absolutely trade Nico for Tkachuk but we would absolutely trade Mercer and every player save Hughes for him. You have to add more with Mercer to get him than you do with Hischier.


And please tell me you’re not saying we haven’t gotten a return on the Hischier, Hughes, Holtz or Hughes picks. That would be incredibly dumb. One because Holtz and L. Hughes were just drafted. And then Jack Hughes is turning into a superstar before our eyes (which you’ve said wouldn’t happen) and Hischier is a damn good player.



And yes he very clearly said something there and made a very good point. You just have to actually read it man. It’s extremely clear.

2017 was a weaker draft and while Nico was the right choice he wasn’t as good as any of the previous #1 overall picks from the CHL in recent years.
But it’s still completely irrelevant to his value today.

 

[Hisch13r]

Literally bait in the profile pic.

Trading Nico for Fiala is just stupid. Why would we rip a major hole in our forward line up for a winger?

Even if you want to ignore Nico ended the season scoring at a top line rate, he is an all situational top 6 center and this franchise has no one that can replace that.

All of Mercer, Zacha, and Boqvist can't replace Nico in that center spot

He was literally a PPG player from like December onward. The beginning of the year it was clear something was bothering him and also he had absolutely no puck luck

 

[MadDevil]

Sometimes you don't get the best player in the draft with #1 overall. It happens. That doesn't mean the player you get is complete garbage or a failed pick if that player "only" becomes a low end #1 or solid #2 center. The amusing thing about this bullshit argument that started because a certain somebody was bored or just practicing his fishing technique (which is good since I'm once again biting), is that Nico is the exact type of player he would have salivated over had Lou drafted him. But Shero drafted him, therefore he must not be very good since Shero sucked. Other than just blatant trolling that's about the only explanation I can come up with for the "logic".

Anyway, back to it. Let's see where the narrative goes next.

 

[Hisch13r]

Sometimes you don't get the best player in the draft with #1 overall. It happens. That doesn't mean the player you get is complete garbage or a failed pick if that player "only" becomes a low end #1 or solid #2 center. The amusing thing about this bullshit argument that started because a certain somebody was bored or just practicing his fishing technique (which is good since I'm once again biting), is that Nico is the exact type of player he would have salivated over had Lou drafted him. But Shero drafted him, therefore he must not be very good since Shero sucked. Other than just blatant trolling that's about the only explanation I can come up with for the "logic".

Anyway, back to it. Let's see where the narrative goes next.

The “only” becoming a high end 2C/low end 1C also doesn’t even work here because it was quite literally the expectation that was set for him when he was drafted. The expectation was never a star. If it was then fine you could bitch and say he’s underachieving. That’s not the case though. He is going to come in right in line with that low end 1C expectation or possibly slightly overachieve it and be a mid 1C

 

[Guttersniped]

Maybe just a coincidence but Mercer's crappy streak at the end of the season corresponds almost exactly with being eliminated from playoff contention on March 31st in an 8-1 loss to Boston...

I'm sure everyone in the organization knew it was coming well before that...but it's pretty remarkable that pretty much right after elimination day he goes dead.

It correlates directly with another date, Hughes last game was April 3rd.

 

[Guttersniped]

This is where the major disconnect is...for me anyway.

You put a garbage product on the ice and only win 28 games to get the 1st overall. You have to pretty much endure shit for an entire season to get that pick. The expectation for that suffering is an impact player in my mind...not a Henrique or Langenbrunner level player...I love those kind of players on my team but not for the cost of a 28 win lost season with a #1 overall.

And that is part of the disconnect...most everyone doesn't seem to see it as an actual cost...that first overall cost a season and we haven't gotten the return on a lost season...

But that's only a small part of bigger problem... so did the #6, the #11, the other #1, the #7, #4 and now the #2 cost an entire season...that first #1 is just the poster boy for the lack of return we got for 7 dreadful seasons. That's how I see it.

and if some GM got giddy over a Captain with intangibles and a #1 overall pedigree and would trade us a big strapping wing that could score 30+ like say Tkachuk...bye-bye


Did you say something here?

Wingers are less valuable than centers. There’s a reason they’re often on the market while centers almost never appear and only few superstar wingers get 8 year deals from teams.

Who gives a shit how strapping a wing is, a line doesn’t function without a center.