Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

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TrufleShufle

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That debate was had plenty, you and others just equated having no Kakko thread to it not being discussed at all. It’s kind of nuts we’re still debating ‘having the discussion’ four years later when Hughes was the right pick then and has proven to be ten times more so now. So we’re debating what exactly, not having an alternate universe where we go nuts, make the pick no expert seriously advocated for and Fitz is still rebuilding?
No, Jim said the discussion wasn't allowed to be had, and he is right. That's it. I've said Jack was and is the right pick, but also said I hated how terrified everyone was about hearing anything else.

We can move on.
 

JimEIV

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Santini looked very promising to me as a potential middle pairing defensive guy, almost like a Siegenthaler, but he just never panned out. He seemed to have enough mobility and he certainly was willing to hit guys so he must have really struggled to process the game.
I thought so as well. I thought he was a definite bottom pairing guy in the league. Based on his higher than average hockey sense and mobility.

In fact I'm still baffled that he couldn't carve a spot out for himself in a Mark Fayne kind of way.
 

My3Sons

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I thought so as well. I thought he was a definite bottom pairing guy in the league. Based on his higher than average hockey sense and mobility.

In fact I'm still baffled that he couldn't carve a spot out for himself in a Mark Fayne kind of way.
He couldn't stick with two other teams though so something was off. I wonder if he had some undisclosed injury issues that held him back? Just strange. Hopefully he can hang around the league a few more years to have enough to retire with. He's from Bronxville which is funny as someone who grew up near there.
 
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Guttersniped

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I don't think this is true. The team still has Hughes and Hischier and Bratt. There may be struggles in net and at different positions, but there's still a lot here - navigating it would absolutely be trickier, but there's a lot of what-ifs that come with it.

Isn't this how the Devils ended up solving their defense anyway? They traded 2 3rds and Ty Smith and signed a big UFA.

Siegenthaler was 2021 ARI 3rd, which we got from the 2020 Hall TDL deal. Graves was the 2021 2nd Rd pick from Greene TDL deal.

We didn’t have our 2021 2nd, that was gone from the Gusev trade. So we can’t make that trade. We could trade our own 2021 3rd. And then we don’t have a 2nd or 3rd in that draft.

And that still only gets Siegenthaler, we don’t have Graves, Mercer, Bahl, Mukhamadullin, etc

My argument is Shero was starting from a point where he was already down two 2nds and 1 3rd, with a shallow prospect pool and thin roster. Yes, he can trade more picks, but that means he drafts even fewer guys. We can’t start to be successful in 2019-20 and it not get ugly.

Because if we aren’t bad in 2021 then we don’t draft Luke. We also need to go down in the shitter to get Luke and Nemec. We aren’t hanging our future success on trades for Siegenthaler or Graves.


Almost nobody thinks Shero shouldn't've been fired. The time to fire a GM trying to save his job is today and that's what the Devils did, for better or worse. Hiring a new guy to be able to step back and look at what the Devils long-term needs were ended up being the right call, by far. Shero, even if he had thought that that's what the franchise needs, wouldn't've been able to do that, because he would've been fired before he could've pulled any of it off.

I know at least one person responded that he shouldn’t have been fired. It’s not like I’m asking for a firing squad.

And I wasn’t dancing on his grave when he was fired because you they can always hire someone who’s worse.
 
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NJ DevLolz

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I see trading picks for RFAs differently because you can resign RFAs even if you’re still bad. That goes for great RFA trades (Palms) and the ones no one liked from the beginning (Mueller).

And all of the early ones were in Shero’s “trading our extra picks” phase.
June 2015: Palms were the 2nd & 3rd from FLA (Jagr)
June 2016: Bennett was 2016 3rd from DET (Zidlicky)
June 2017: Mueller was the 2017 2nd from BOS (Stempniak) & 2017 4th from NSH (Fiddler), we got a 2017 5th in return.
July 2017: Mojo was the 2018 2nd from FLA (Savard) & 2018 3rd from TOR (2015 compensation for Lou lol)

But then we didn’t make any trades and Shero traded four 2nds in a row. How do you not see that’s bizarre for a bottom feeder? His TDL was criticized (rightly) by people who pointed out that we didn’t have the draft resources to make a move like that.

When did we “stockpile picks” under Shero? If Fitz was against “stockpiling picks” we wouldn’t have Mercer now or Mukhamadullin for the Meier trade.

To me, there was a problem with Shero trading every extra 2nd and then four of our own. I think we needed to draft in the 2nd Rd more. Shero’s strategy with picks (until 2018) was quantity not quality.

You need both in rebuilds. The reason you get extra picks, particularly extra early ones, is to take a bunch of extra swings and flood your system with talent. It’s a messy process but when you’re devoid of talent that’s what it takes.

Repeatedly trading 2nds for guys who were 2-3 years from UFA particularly drags out the process. These players aren’t part of the future and at best you might flip them (and some we didn’t).

We’re so f***ing lucky that we won two lotteries and the Summer of Shero didn’t work because he half-assed the rebuild. Yes, old man Lou didn’t leave him with much, but I’ve seen other GM generate assets out very little, while Shero pissed away a bunch. He deserves criticism for his bad asset management.

I’ve run out ways to say the same thing over and over again.
I think part of the reason why Shero traded those picks early in the process was to keep Hall happy and build around him. Hall was stuck on terrible EDM teams and was ousted right after McDavid provided hope. With the benefit of hindsight, there was no way to build a contender with Hall making premium (8+) money. But again, what's the point of making the Hall trade if you're not going to try to win with him? The team was utterly screwed when we acquired Hall. Shero's plan was likely to Build around Hall and Schneider and fill out the roster with trades and wait for Zacha and McLeod to come in (LOL).

I'll say it again, Shero deserved to be fired, mostly for keeping Hynes as long as he did. He did a solid job overall based on what he inherited. I would sing a much different tune if he traded firsts or saddled us with abhorrent contracts - he did neither. I'm thrilled with Fitz and wouldn't change the course of events because this roster is loaded with top prospects about to make a difference. However, I think it's absurd to kill Shero as much as people do. Selling is much easier than buying and obviously Fitz crushed it with the second Hall trade and Coleman. Shero literally had nothing to sell and while he benefitted from winning two lotteries, Palmieri , Ty Smith, and Hall were his guys, which netted two firsts (Mercer and Stillman), Bahl and Siegenthaler, and Marino. Can't both things be true?
 

NJ DevLolz

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I know at least one person responded that he shouldn’t have been fired. It’s not like I’m asking for a firing squad.

And I wasn’t dancing on his grave when he was fired because you they can always hire someone who’s worse.
If you're referring to me, I thought he should've been fired. Mostly because he kept Hynes too long. I just think he gets unjustifiably shit on for trading so many 2nds and 3rds, but keeping salary flexibility
 
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forceten

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Why Shero isn't working as a GM anymore, he has a new startup:

1693334980278.png
 

JimEIV

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He couldn't stick with two other teams though so something was off. I wonder if he had some undisclosed injury issues that held him back? Just strange. Hopefully he can hang around the league a few more years to have enough to retire with. He's from Bronxville which is funny as someone who grew up near there.
I don't know if he really ever had a chance in Nashville. The Kings did just give him a one year 800k NHL contract so this might be his last shot at the big league.
 
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Brodeur

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Mike Milbury is lurking in this thread

Milbury was on Spittin' Chiclets and shed some light on a trade that fell through. Way back when, I had heard he made the same offer to Boston (Chara/Muckalt/Spezza pick) for Jason Allison before eventually trading it to Ottawa for Alexei Yashin. Allison was an RFA fresh off a 95 point season. Milbury had just hired Peter Laviolette who had been an assistant coach with the Bruins, so Laviolette probably preferred Allison over Yashin.

What I had heard back in the day was that Boston demanded Dave Scatchard instead of Bill Muckalt and that was was deal breaker. That's when Milbury pivoted to Ottawa/Yashin.

According to Milbury, he had agreed to include Scatchard but co-owner Charles Wang didn't approve the deal because he appreciated how much Scatchard did off the ice (ie, hospital visits). Milbury didn't expand further, but I could imagine Boston being upset that they had agreed on the deal only to have Milbury try to substitute in an inferior player.

I did kinda laugh that Milbury downplayed Scatchard as a 3rd/4th liner. He had a respectable 45 point season in 2000-01 and would score 27 goals a couple years later. Plus the implication that Milbury didn't want Yashin and that Allison wouldn't have been a problem (for different reasons).
 
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Guttersniped

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Let's switch gears and talk about the All-Time Bleedred Devils team. I'll get us started.

Goalie:
Mackenzie Blackwood (starter)
Hannu Kamppuri (backup)

Defense:
Steve Santini

Alexi Ponikarovsky-Sergei Kalinin-Adam Mair
Stefan Matteau-Tim Sestito-Bobby Butler
Andrew Peters-Kevin Rooney-John Hayden
Eric Boulton-Rod Pelley-Cam Janssen

Mark Fraser-Steve Santini
Seth Helgeson-Peter Harrold
Colton White-David Hale

Jon Gillies
Aaron Dell

Who did I miss @Bleedred ?
 

Camille the Eel

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If you're referring to me, I thought he should've been fired. Mostly because he kept Hynes too long. I just think he gets unjustifiably shit on for trading so many 2nds and 3rds, but keeping salary flexibility
And Larsen for Hall was a great deal too. I wouldn’t trade that 17-18 MVP season away in hindsight. That year was so much fun and an oasis in the desert on the way to last year. We really did well with Shero followed by Fitz and it makes no sense to me to see people bashing Shero now. We are in a good place.
 
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My3Sons

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Siegenthaler was 2021 ARI 3rd, which we got from the 2020 Hall TDL deal. Graves was the 2021 2nd Rd pick from Greene TDL deal.

We didn’t have our 2021 2nd, that was gone from the Gusev trade. So we can’t make that trade. We could trade our own 2021 3rd. And then we don’t have a 2nd or 3rd in that draft.

And that still only gets Siegenthaler, we don’t have Graves, Mercer, Bahl, Mukhamadullin, etc

My argument is Shero was starting from a point where he was already down two 2nds and 1 3rd, with a shallow prospect pool and thin roster. Yes, he can trade more picks, but that means he drafts even fewer guys. We can’t start to be successful in 2019-20 and it not get ugly.

Because if we aren’t bad in 2021 then we don’t draft Luke. We also need to go down in the shitter to get Luke and Nemec. We aren’t hanging our future success on trades for Siegenthaler or Graves.




I know at least one person responded that he shouldn’t have been fired. It’s not like I’m asking for a firing squad.

And I wasn’t dancing on his grave when he was fired because you they can always hire someone who’s worse.
Some of it is the GM's eye for players. Shero just picked up poor defensive candidates while Fitz seems to have a better feel for it. Obviously you cannot see that sort of stuff except in hindsight but I wonder if Shero's lack of feel for building the defense was part of ownership's move to manage more by committee? It is interesting to see how Fitz has remained the face of the franchise and has not had anyone undercut him when it comes to hockey moves.
 

Guttersniped

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If you're referring to me, I thought he should've been fired. Mostly because he kept Hynes too long. I just think he gets unjustifiably shit on for trading so many 2nds and 3rds, but keeping salary flexibility
No I wasn’t referring to you, and I didn’t mean it as a call out either. I sort of forgot who the poster was lol but it was from different day. It doesn’t matter.

I deserved to be cursed for helping dragging this discussion on and on lol.
 

JimEIV

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Some of it is the GM's eye for players. Shero just picked up poor defensive candidates while Fitz seems to have a better feel for it. Obviously you cannot see that sort of stuff except in hindsight but I wonder if Shero's lack of feel for building the defense was part of ownership's move to manage more by committee? It is interesting to see how Fitz has remained the face of the franchise and has not had anyone undercut him when it comes to hockey moves.

By all accounts from Penguins fans Shero had the same lack of vision for defense there as he did here.

And I don't want to take away one ounce of credit from Fitz but when ownership switched Marty from marketing to player personnel there seemed to be an immediate difference in direction. I do wonder how much of an impact Marty has played shaping this team.
 

Mr Bojanglez

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And Larsen for Hall was a great deal too.

That trade will NEVER not be an amazing steal. Given the players at that time.

Like sure - even if Larsen ended up being a Norris trophy winner. In that moment, that was amazing.

Rumour was he was going for Draistal. Funny - i imagine we fans would have been more pissed at that time, but happier now.... .had that actually been the trade.
 

njdevil26

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If anyone wants to bash Gusev let's remember his first here he may have been the only fun thing about that team. His second year was terrible but those teams has so many issues that he was hardly a problem.
 

JimEIV

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Larsson for Hall was mind blowing. 2018 Hall was incredible and I am glad I got to see it...

But in hindsight I think it stalled what should have been a straight up rebuild. In hindsight I think Hall set us back about 3 years.
 

MartyOwns

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Apr 1, 2007
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No I wasn't. I never advocated for Kakko, that is completely false. I just didn't understand why the conversation couldn't be had predraft. There was no discussion allowed here a week before the draft on the merits of each player...that is a fact.
anyone can search your posts containing the word ‘kakko’ and see for themselves whether or not you advocated for him. i’m not going to do it because i’m not psychotic.

i know saying ‘shero had nothing to do with hughes’ is bait, but it’s so laughable this time i had to say something.
 
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JimEIV

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anyone can search your posts containing the word ‘kakko’ and see for themselves whether or not you advocated for him. i’m not going to do it because i’m not psychotic.

i know saying ‘shero had nothing to do with hughes’ is bait, but it’s so laughable this time i had to say something.
You're making shit up as per usual.
 

Guttersniped

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That trade will NEVER not be an amazing steal. Given the players at that time.

Like sure - even if Larsen ended up being a Norris trophy winner. In that moment, that was amazing.

Rumour was he was going for Draisaitl. Funny - i imagine we fans would have been more pissed at that time, but happier now.... .had that actually been the trade.
Wat!?!?
That seems new to me.

Found this.
LINK

388B248B-A1E4-4494-AAB2-589E7B1D258F.jpeg


This just in, Jeff Marek of Sportsnet suggesting to Reid Wilkins of 630 CHED the Edmonton Oilers should trade Leon Draisaitl for one of four young New Jersey defencemen: “If I’m the Edmonton Oilers, and I’ve got Connor McDavid coming, I’ve got Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, I say to myself, ‘Leon Draisaitl is a centreman, he’s not a third line centre, he’s a Top 2 centreman in the NHL. I’m calling the New Jersey Devils right away and trying to get either Adam Larsson or Damon Severson or Jon Merrill or Eric Gelinas, one of these guys, these young defencemen away from the New Jersey Devils A.S.A.P., and I’m using Draisaitl as trade bait.

Larsson came on in New Jersey after coach Peter DeBoer was let go, Marek said, while Drasaitl’s trade value is higher now than it was in the 2014-15 regular season, when he struggled in the NHL. “His trade stock is so high and if I can fish someone like Adam Larsson out of the New Jersey Devils organization and use trade bait, I’d do it in a flash.”

My take​

1. Thanks, but no thanks. A provocative suggestion by Marek, for sure. And perhaps I am guilty of over-valuing the assets of the Edmonton Oilers here, but this particular notion strikes me as a non-starter.

2. Every day some blog or another is having the Oilers trade one of its young and highly-rated attackers. The Hockey Writers blog seems to have a quota of concocting one such odd story per day. This is the first time I’ve heard a connected NHL insider such as Marek suggest such a trade. And, certainly, if the Oilers can get a defenceman who can step in as their No. 1 d-man, such a trade makes sense. But Marek isn’t suggesting a trade for Seth Jones here.

3. New Jersey was a mediocre team in the mediocre Eastern conference. The Devils were outshot with all of these four d-men on the ice, save for Severson.

I don’t claim to have a strong take on the merit of these four New Jersey d-men. I haven’t seen them play enough.

And, certainly, they all might well be good NHL d-men one day, but not one of them played in New Jersey’s top-pairing last season for any major stretch of time. Not one of them has the appearance of a d-man who can step in to the tougher Western Conference any time soon and be a No. 1 d-man, and that’s what the Oilers need, at least if they’re moving the third overall pick in the 2014 draft in Draisaitl.

4. Edmonton doesn’t need more young decent d-man prospects or promising young NHLers. They need a mid-career vet or two capable of leading their defensive group.

The Oilers have no shortage of young d-men big on promise but a bit short on performance. They already have Oscar Klefbom, Justin Schultz and Martin Marincin at the NHL level, Brandon Davidson and David Musil in the AHL, and Darnell Nurse coming out of junior.

Are any of the young New Jersey d-men a better player than Klefbom? Because Klefbom isn’t nearly ready to be a No. 1 d-man in the West.

5. The Oilers are desperate for big players upfront who can puck protect in the offensive zone and win battles on the boards in the defensive zone. Broad-shouldered Draisaitl is that kind of player, and he’s not going to get any smaller as he matures. He’s likely to play at 220 or 230-pounds. Right now, he fills a huge need in Edmonton.

Why move him and still have that hole in the roster?

6. Draisaitl didn’t play that well for the Oilers in his first half debut, but a lot of young attacking players performed poorly in Edmonton at that time only to see their play pick-up considerably once Todd Nelson took over as coach. Draisaitl was back in junior then, but why move him before you can see what a veteran coach like Todd McLellan can do with him?

7. It might make sense to move a player or a draft pick to New Jersey for one of these d-men, but Larsson hasn’t sparkled yet in four pro seasons. It’s hard to imagine he’s got the kind of trade value that would command Draisaitl in return.

Larsson could be on the cusp of realizing his potential, as Marek suggests. He could also be on the cusp of being downgraded, along with his trade value.

8. Larsson has only got three more years left until he’s an unrestricted free agent. Draisaitl has seven.

9. Pittsburgh won a Cup with Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Jordan Staal at centre. It’s not a strange and unprecedented risk for the Oilers to attempt the same.

10. In the short-term, it’s easy to imagine either Draisaitl or McDavid on the wing. Numerous other NHL players who have later starred at centre have done so.

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Anton Lander and Boyd Gordon are already set at centre for the Oilers for next season.

11. Is there no unrestricted free agent who can help the Oilers second defence-pairing and won’t cost the team a Draisaitl? Hard to imagine that the cupboard is so bare.
 

Bleedred

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Let's switch gears and talk about the All-Time Bleedred Devils team. I'll get us started.

Goalie:
Mackenzie Blackwood (starter)
Hannu Kamppuri (backup)

Defense:
Steve Santini
My friend has a picture on his wall of Hannu Kamppuri. He's a big fan, though not really old enough to have been able to remember him with the Devils.

I might take Sean Burke as one of my goalies. I hated that guy. He wasn't any good as a Devil, outside of the stretch run of the 87-88 season and the 88 playoffs.

He was trash here, outside of his play in the 87-88 season (which wasn't many games) and the 88 playoffs.

He also whined about losing his job to Terreri and then wouldn't sign. He clearly wasn't as good as Terreri was, until after he left the Devils. He became a pretty good goalie, but it didn't happen here. He didn't really consistently become good until he started being coached by Benoit Allaire in Arizona, and he was already in his 30's by that point.
 

Devils731

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You're making shit up as per usual.
What’s funny is that if you do look you can find yourself talking about Kakko vs Hughes for pages, even though then and now you claim nobody will talk about it. :lol:

IMG_8464.jpeg


A fair recap of your position at the time is that you got to talk about Kakko vs Hughes, you said Kakko was clearly better than Hughes at that time, and that you wouldn’t say who you would take but that you might lean Hughes because you like Americans (and then proceeded to say why Hughes had you worried). It was a masterclass in CYA fence sitting and concern trolling.
 

JimEIV

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What’s funny is that if you do look you can find yourself talking about Kakko vs Hughes for pages, even though then and now you claim nobody will talk about it. :lol:

View attachment 739651

A fair recap of your position at the time is that you got to talk about Kakko vs Hughes, you said Kakko was clearly better than Hughes at that time, and that you wouldn’t say who you would take but that you might lean Hughes because you like Americans (and then proceeded to say why Hughes had you worried). It was a masterclass in CYA fence sitting and concern trolling.
So what you're saying is I never advocated for Kakko....thanks.

And I qualified that the conversation was shut down just before the draft...I never said we didn't talk about it. Your quote was in May during the World Championships the draft was June 21st.
 
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