Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[Devils731]

So what you're saying is I never advocated for Kakko....thanks.

I was trying to be fair about what I saw.

You advocate heavily for Kakko’s strong points and talked about Hughes’ weak points but refused to answer people who asked you who you would take.

So I do think it is not true that you did not advocate for Kakko. Anyone trying to guess your opinion after you refused to answer direct questions would assume you preferred Kakko.

 

[JimEIV]

I was trying to be fair about what I saw.

You advocate heavily for Kakko’s strong points and talked about Hughes’ weak points but refused to answer people who asked you who you would take.

So I do think it is not true that you did not advocate for Kakko. Anyone trying to guess your opinion after you refused to answer direct questions would assume you preferred Kakko.

Wouldn't it be normal and reasonable to dissect the top two prospects a month before the draft...and the fact that we were seeing them at the World Championships against a higher level play than they were used to is all the more relevant to "pro's and con's" type of conversations.

The general consensus was Kakko was better now but Hughes will be much better 5 years later. And that is the context of so much of the conversation that was had then....the reasonable question/conversation is how much better now and how much better later. Everyone was having that conversation.

 

[MartyOwns]

Goals bring people out of there seats and Kakko is going to score a lot of them.

took about 8 seconds to find that. that’s not advocating, though.

 

[JimEIV]

took about 8 seconds to find that. that’s not advocating, though.

Of you course you provide zero context or a quote or anything.

 

[Bleedred]

I think a lot of people here wanted Kakko over Jack. Probably not quite half, but there was a decent percentage of people wanting Kakko.

I wasn't one of them, though I was for Nolan Patrick over Nico.

 

[JimEIV]

I think a lot of people here wanted Kakko over Jack. Probably not quite half, but there was a decent percentage of people wanting Kakko.

I wasn't one of them, though I was for Nolan Patrick over Nico.

That's honestly not how I remember it.

I remember it being a conversation about an NHL ready now player vs someone who need time to gain strength and fill out who would be better in the future.

I think that was pretty much the stage that was set for Kakko v. Hughes debates.

I remember Patrick vs Nico being a much more real debate?

 

[Guadana]

I think a lot of people here wanted Kakko over Jack. Probably not quite half, but there was a decent percentage of people wanting Kakko.

I wasn't one of them, though I was for Nolan Patrick over Nico.

I was happy to be in Nico, Jack, Mercer camp. I was in Edvinsson camp over Hughes. But after Smith departure I`m pretty good with how it was going on. Still like Edvinsson little more, but both are great prospects. Luke should produce a lot more points. I was in anti Wright camp and I`m happy he wasn`t picked. Liked pick of Nemec and I like it even more now. In some moment I liked Jiricek more before the draft but it was changed very fast. I was in anti Holtz, anti Perfetti and anti Rossi camp. Wanted Quinn(Sanderson and than Raymond but both were not available). Wanted Morrow as late first in 2021.

 

[Brodeur]

That's honestly not how I remember it.

I remember it being a conversation about an NHL ready now player vs someone who need time to gain strength and fill out who would be better in the future.

I think that was pretty much the stage that was set for Kakko v. Hughes debates.

I remember Patrick vs Nico being a much more real debate?

Not sure if it was the league, but a film crew saw me in a Devils jersey by the player entrance at the draft and asked my thoughts on who to take (they made me sign a waiver too, so I'll laugh if the footage ever pops up with my government name). I mentioned that Jack might have a bit of untapped upside that'll come when he grows into his body.

As soon as the camera shut off, I joked that it felt ultra creepy talking about a teenaged boy growing into his body. That got a laugh out of the TV crew.

I thought most of us were set on Jack, it was more that Kakko was looking really good too. Whereas Nico/Patrick seemed to be much more of a 50/50 split and I was admittedly on Team Patrick. It seems like we would have taken Makar before Patrick if the trade rumor with Vegas is true.

 

[My3Sons]

By all accounts from Penguins fans Shero had the same lack of vision for defense there as he did here.

And I don't want to take away one ounce of credit from Fitz but when ownership switched Marty from marketing to player personnel there seemed to be an immediate difference in direction. I do wonder how much of an impact Marty has played shaping this team.

I don't doubt Brodeur has significant clout. My guess is that Fitz welcomes it. Fitz doesn't come across as egotistical as Shero did to me. I expect Fitz is collaborative with guys he trusts. For better or worse he trusts Ruff based on his public statements and I don't doubt he trusts Brodeur.

 

[Mr Bojanglez]

Wat!?!?
That seems new to me.

Found this.
LINK

View attachment 739650

Fair enough. So I gues rumor is appropriate.

 

[Bleedred]

Alexi Ponikarovsky-Sergei Kalinin-Adam Mair
Stefan Matteau-Tim Sestito-Bobby Butler
Andrew Peters-Kevin Rooney-John Hayden
Eric Boulton-Rod Pelley-Cam Janssen

Mark Fraser-Steve Santini
Seth Helgeson-Peter Harrold
Colton White-David Hale

Jon Gillies
Aaron Dell

Who did I miss @Bleedred ?

Probably need a little more Lyle Odelein on D and definitely some Steve Thomas and Reid Simpson at forward.

 

[JimEIV]

Not sure if it was the league, but a film crew saw me in a Devils jersey by the player entrance at the draft and asked my thoughts on who to take (they made me sign a waiver too, so I'll laugh if the footage ever pops up with my government name). I mentioned that Jack might have a bit of untapped upside that'll come when he grows into his body.

As soon as the camera shut off, I joked that it felt ultra creepy talking about a teenaged boy growing into his body. That got a laugh out of the TV crew.

I thought most of us were set on Jack, it was more that Kakko was looking really good too. Whereas Nico/Patrick seemed to be much more of a 50/50 split and I was admittedly on Team Patrick. It seems like we would have taken Makar before Patrick if the trade rumor with Vegas is true.

I remember leaning Patrick too I thought he had an NHL caliber shot. But I also remember real concerns about his injury history.

When we chose Nico I just assumed that was the deciding issue (injury) and I had no problem with it. Later on I remember hearing Shero say it wasn't injury history it was the lack of progress Patrick had from his previous year while Nico had a major rise and that was more appealing to them.

Probably need a little more Lyle Odelein on D and definitely some Steve Thomas and Reid Simpson at forward.

Oh come on Odelein doesn't deserve to be throw in with those waste products. He had a solid 3 years-ish with us as top 4 defender

 

[MartyOwns]

Of you course you provide zero context or a quote or anything.

it’s rich to hear you complaining about a lack of context after your shero condemnations. never change

 

[JimEIV]

Anyone trying to guess your opinion after you refused to answer direct questions would assume you preferred Kakko.

I stated a month before the draft that I was leaning Jack. Just didn't believe that he was was NHL ready. And he clearly wasn't.

The good thing is Kakko wasn't NHL ready either.

Spending the last few minutes reading everyone's comments from back then I think the bigger surprise is Kakko still hasn't cracked 20 goals. I think everyone thought Kakko was much better than he has turned out to be. Elite winger was the general consensus.

 

[My3Sons]

I stated a month before the draft that I was leaning Jack. Just didn't believe that he was was NHL ready. And he clearly wasn't.

The good thing is Kakko wasn't NHL ready either.

Spending the last few minutes reading everyone's comments from back then I think the bigger surprise is Kakko still hasn't cracked 20 goals. I think everyone thought Kakko was much better than he has turned out to be. Elite winger was the general consensus.

That sort of highlights the issues with "NHL ready" versus potential. The premise of Kakko if memory serves was that he'd play immediately and be good. Jack was always going to be more of a project but one that had amazing potential as we've seen. If you pick an NHL ready guy and he's not ready you probably have a player without the top potential you want at the top of the draft. Kakko isn't so old the book is written on him and maybe he develops further but it's hard to see an elite wing in him at this point.

 

[StevenToddIves]

I was happy to be in Nico, Jack, Mercer camp. I was in Edvinsson camp over Hughes. But after Smith departure I`m pretty good with how it was going on. Still like Edvinsson little more, but both are great prospects. Luke should produce a lot more points. I was in anti Wright camp and I`m happy he wasn`t picked. Liked pick of Nemec and I like it even more now. In some moment I liked Jiricek more before the draft but it was changed very fast. I was in anti Holtz, anti Perfetti and anti Rossi camp. Wanted Quinn(Sanderson and than Raymond but both were not available). Wanted Morrow as late first in 2021.

I had Patrick over Nico. Make sure to bring it up the next time you disagree with me on anything. Not just hockey. I mean, anything. Like, if I'm arguing Led Zeppelin and you're arguing The Rolling Stones or if I'm arguing cats and you're arguing dogs or if I'm arguing red and you're arguing blue. Anything at all. Just bring up Nolan Patrick and I'm pretty sure I automatically lose whatever debate I'm involved in.

 

[Guadana]

I had Patrick over Nico. Make sure to bring it up the next time you disagree with me on anything. Not just hockey. I mean, anything. Like, if I'm arguing Led Zeppelin and you're arguing The Rolling Stones or if I'm arguing cats and you're arguing dogs or if I'm arguing red and you're arguing blue. Anything at all. Just bring up Nolan Patrick and I'm pretty sure I automatically lose whatever debate I'm involved in.

I cant have Stones over Zeppelin, I have taste.
Overall everybody can make mistake. Even me(even lets count I didnt have many). Sorry. Even Me.

I think having Patrick over Nico was not so huge thing, but it should learn us to think about injuries more. And(more importantly) about hockey iq, effort, two way game. For example some people have Eklund over Beniers. Some didnt have Beniers as top-3 (pathetic, it was The Mighty Myself). With his skating and two way game, I wasnt as big on him somehow. Really I dont know why, he was prototypical my hockey player. May be love from scouching spoiled my mind. It was definitely it. I havent Beniers as top 3, My top-3 were Power, McTavish and Edvinsson of course. I still like all of this players. But I would definitely put Beniers in top-3 now.

 

[Triumph]

The Devils were 4th in Goals For...take Jack's 43 goals away and the Devil are right back at the bottom of the league at 21st... basically where they have been the last 4 or 5 years.

Take his possession away and your goals against are up and differential is flirting with negative numbers from the massive +60.

Not how it works, nobody plays a guy who scores 0 goals on PP1 and gives them 1st line minutes. That ice time would be divided between other players and yes, someone from Utica who wouldn't be very good, but it's definitely a lot more than 0 goals.

Plenty of guys had great possession numbers who barely played with Hughes. This was a team effort - Hughes was the best player, but the Devils absolutely could've made the playoffs without him.

 

[AfroThunder396]

What are you talking about? He traded our 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2021 2nd. None of those were surplus 2nds. Those were our 2nds, therefore not surplus. Those are the ones I’ve complained about.

We didn’t have another “high” 2nd in 2019, we had Boston’s #61 pick, the second last pick in the round. We had the the third pick in the 2nd in the Round.

Having a couple extra other picks, after we sold off players, doesn’t mean losing those 2nd wasn’t bad. Teams like Detroit and Buffalo drafted a ton in the 2nd Rd, and we never had an extra pick or even manage to each year. It’s pathetic. Sorry Shero apologists, that’s what it is.

He asked about the players taken with the picks so I discussed them. And we didn’t have to pick those guys, we could have drafted someone else. And they don’t necessarily have to play for us. Maybe we trade them for Meier and kept Zetterlund. Fitz could have also used those picks to move up in the draft with our late 1sts.

I don’t see the problem of pointing out that when you’re terrible trading three 2nds in one off-season is a bad move, particularly when it completely blows up in your face and those assets turn into ashes before they’re even used.

And I only “harp” on lost opportunity when people defend this dumb shit.

A team who was in the bottom of the standings, which never had any extra picks, shouldn’t have traded a bunch of their 2nds. And Summer of Shero was doomed to fail, and more importantly, had to fail. Those are my arguments. (Which I’m tired of making because I don’t care that much anymore, it’s very spilt milk.)

I agree, which is why I just deleted my unnecessarily long response I spent an hour writing.

I'll leave the conversation by saying that draft picks only have value if you know how to use them, and that for 10 years we couldn't get much value out of guys we picked in the 2nd round outside of Severson. In that context I don't mind trading surplus picks (when you have two picks, you can trade one of them and still have one left over to make a selection) for roster players, especially those with term and/or at RFA age. That way you can add short/medium term improvements to the roster while still building your prospect pool.

Drafting a high quality player is far more important than drafting high quantities of players.

 

[Camille the Eel]

Zeppelin vs Stones isn’t an apples to apples comparison. There was a good gap in style and in the development of music through the 60’s between them. A crucial few years. And the styles diverged. Plus the Stones went through so many incarnations. The Stones of Beggars Banquet can’t really be compared to the two early Zeppelin albums without the criterion becoming taste in styles of music, for example.

Actually I saw Zeppelin at the Fillmore East on their first American tour, it would have been spring of ‘69 maybe? They opened a bill for Blood Sweat and Tears lol.

 

[Devs3cups]

Zeppelin vs Stones isn’t an apples to apples comparison. There was a good gap in style and in the development of music through the 60’s between them. A crucial few years. And the styles diverged. Plus the Stones went through so many incarnations. The Stones of Beggars Banquet can’t really be compared to the two early Zeppelin albums without the criterion becoming taste in styles of music, for example.

Actually I saw Zeppelin at the Fillmore East on their first American tour, it would have been spring of ‘69 maybe? They opened a bill for Blood Sweat and Tears lol.

Pink Floyd was superior anyways

 

[Darkauron]

Pink Floyd was superior anyways

Zep > Floyd >>>>>>>> Stones. Rolling stones are crap

 

[Devs3cups]

Zep > Floyd >>>>>>>> Stones. Rolling stones are crap

Switch Floyd and Zeppelin and I agree! I don’t dislike the Stones but they’re #3 for me there.

 

[Brodeur]

Put me in the Zeppelin column. Also learned recently that years ago I had unknowingly walked by the apartment buildings that were used for the Physical Graffiti album cover. Gonna get a photo opp next time I'm in town.

...and on a related note, Ticketmaster is waiving fees for some games if purchased by tomorrow. I bought tickets for the season opener (not eligible) and game #2 against Arizona. It was quite nice not getting that extra surcharge.

 

[Lou is God]

Zep > Floyd >>>>>>>> Stones. Rolling stones are crap

Skynyrd >>>> over everybody.

They were only scratching the surface on their greatness before that plane went down.