Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

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JimEIV

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I think he always has been. I think even worse than Odelein.

He clearly seems to get jobs based on being a former 3rd overall pick and he was also good at producing points at one point in his career early on, but it's been a pretty long time since he's done that.

Crosby also had a lot to do with him getting that 5 year deal from Pittsburgh back in 2018, which he was bought out from.
I guess it's I just object to the term terrible for guys that managed to carve out 15, 16 or 17 year careers with well over 1000 games...when you say "terrible" I think Will Butcher, or maybe even a Mark Frazer or Vishnevsky... But a guy who was desired enough to make 56 million dollars in the league and put in 1100 games just doesn't fit the description of "terrible" in my mind.
 
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StevenToddIves

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Wow. You are even older than me. Who else did you see back then?
Never saw Zeppelin, but I saw the Stones on the Steel Wheels tour at Shea Stadium. I was a kid then. I'm pretty sure you're older haha. You probably saw the Jimi Hendrix experience. Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if I learned you went to a Mozart concert.

Any time you trade down, there is some risk that you lose out on a player you covet. In this case, I assume the Devils knew that Calgary was taking Kidd (it may even have been discussed, and he was the consensus top goalie in that draft) ... so it was 8 teams that could have taken Brodeur And Brodeur wasn't even the 2nd-rated goalie (Felix Potvin), making it even more likely that Marty (who generally was looked at as a 2nd round pick) would be available. So not zero risk, but probably pretty minimal.

I am not suggesting that the Devils scouts/GM deserve NO credit for the Bratt pick. Someone saw some potential upside in him that they didn't see elsewhere ... and that no other team saw. I am just saying that they weren't walking away from that draft thinking they got a 30G/70pt player. If they DID, then they got really lucky after giving every team multiple chances to pick Bratt, while they themselves chose:

Joey Anderson
Brandon Gignac
Mikhail Maltsev
Evan Cormier
Yegor Rykov

They also could have taken Bratt at pick #77 (which they traded for Beau Bennett).

I am not even counting McLeod and Bastian, as (based on prospect rankings) no one was taking Bratt in the first two rounds.

A 6th round pick is a lottery ticket and, like any lottery ticket, they almost always end up worthless. They hit on this one ... in a big way
I don't like the lottery ticket analogy because it insinuates drafting late is all luck. Sure, there's some luck involved, but you increase that luck with good scouting and draft philosophy. It's more like a suicide pool -- sure, luck is greatly involved, but the smarter people have a far better chance of hitting it big.
 

My3Sons

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Never saw Zeppelin, but I saw the Stones on the Steel Wheels tour at Shea Stadium. I was a kid then. I'm pretty sure you're older haha. You probably saw the Jimi Hendrix experience. Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if I learned you went to a Mozart concert.


I don't like the lottery ticket analogy because it insinuates drafting late is all luck. Sure, there's some luck involved, but you increase that luck with good scouting and draft philosophy. It's more like a suicide pool -- sure, luck is greatly involved, but the smarter people have a far better chance of hitting it big.
I am realistically too young to have seen Zeppelin. They didn’t tour thr US after 1977. I was a relatively little kid then. I did see the Stones at MSG in 1981. I saw them several times over the years since then. Most recently in 2021 or 2022 in the Superdome with my youngest which was fun. Sadly I passed on seeing Page and Plant in 1992 or 1994 or whenever they toured together with that orchestra. I did see Plant at Preservation Hall which holds about 75 people and I was front row about four feet from him while he sang. Really amazing.
 

Bleedred

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I guess it's I just object to the term terrible for guys that managed to carve out 15, 16 or 17 year careers with well over 1000 games...when you say "terrible" I think Will Butcher, or maybe even a Mark Frazer or Vishnevsky... But a guy who was desired enough to make 56 million dollars in the league and put in 1100 games just doesn't fit the description of "terrible" in my mind.
Fair enough

Mark Fraser is a very different kind of terrible. Him playing 219 NHL games and being liked enough by Jacques Lemaire is a much more bizarre and unexplainable happening than Odelein and Johnson playing over 1000 games.
 
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Nubmer6

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I guess it's I just object to the term terrible for guys that managed to carve out 15, 16 or 17 year careers with well over 1000 games...when you say "terrible" I think Will Butcher, or maybe even a Mark Frazer or Vishnevsky... But a guy who was desired enough to make 56 million dollars in the league and put in 1100 games just doesn't fit the description of "terrible" in my mind.
Perhaps. I think you just happened to hit a nerve with my all-time most hated Devil.
 

britdevil

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Let’s be honest, Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac >>>>>> any other British band


the-patriot.gif
 

JimEIV

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I am realistically too young to have seen Zeppelin. They didn’t tour thr US after 1977. I was a relatively little kid then. I did see the Stones at MSG in 1981. I saw them several times over the years since then. Most recently in 2021 or 2022 in the Superdome with my youngest which was fun. Sadly I passed on seeing Page and Plant in 1992 or 1994 or whenever they toured together with that orchestra. I did see Plant at Preservation Hall which holds about 75 people and I was front row about four feet from him while he sang. Really amazing.

When I was in Montana Robert Plante and Alison Krause were doing a show. My wife and I toyed with idea of going... My wife wanted to go, I really didn't

Luckily for me the show was cancelled. The last thing I wanted to do while I was in Montana was see a decrepit Plant sequel to a country sound.

 

Triumph

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Terrible Dmen don't get over 1000 NHL games over 16 years and average 20 minutes a night.

They sure do. They still do, but they did even then. Odelein was almost certainly bad, but it's impossible to really tell. One thing I know for absolutely certain is that he belonged nowhere close to a power play.
 
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JimEIV

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They sure do. They still do, but they did even then. Odelein was almost certainly bad, but it's impossible to really tell. One thing I know for absolutely certain is that he belonged nowhere close to a power play.
Nonsense...In the history of the game there have only been 123 Defensemen to have played 1000+ games. None of them are "terrible". That's just ridiculous.

Here's a list if you want to see them

 
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SteveCangialosi123

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Nonsense...In the history of the game there have only been 123 Defensemen to have played 1000+ games. None of them are "terrible". That's just ridiculous.

Here's a list if you want to see them

Jack Johnson is terrible

Edit: I see someone already mentioned him lol
 
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My3Sons

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When I was in Montana Robert Plante and Alison Krause were doing a show. My wife and I toyed with idea of going... My wife wanted to go, I really didn't

Luckily for me the show was cancelled. The last thing I wanted to do while I was in Montana was see a decrepit Plant sequel to a country sound.

He does a few Zeppelin songs. You can YouTube them and see what you missed and decide if you want to catch him some other time. I think Levee Breaks works in his current context the others not so much.
 
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Triumph

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He wasn't always and a lot of those 123 were terrible at the tail end of their careers. That's the way a long career works.

Daneyko was terrible for two maybe 3 years before he retired. That's the way it goes

Jack Johnson was always at least bad. He has always been underwater in shots and chances. Always. He has averaged 21 minutes a year. And this is in an era when this data has all been available. Someone like Odelein playing the bulk of his career in front of 2 of the top 3 goalies in the league, on strong teams, almost always playing with Stevens or Niedermayer at ES? Impossible to judge, but eye test wise, I always thought he was lousy, and this was before I was on the Internet talking about the Devils.
 

njdevils1982

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Nonsense...In the history of the game there have only been 123 Defensemen to have played 1000+ games. None of them are "terrible". That's just ridiculous.

Here's a list if you want to see them


whats ridiculous is orpik lowest goals of defencemen with over 1000 games ...18/1035

even dano scored more (including G/GP) 36/1283
 

Goptor

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Hal Gill is on there also. Career pylon that stayed around a while because he took up so much space on the PK.
 

StevenToddIves

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I am realistically too young to have seen Zeppelin. They didn’t tour thr US after 1977. I was a relatively little kid then. I did see the Stones at MSG in 1981. I saw them several times over the years since then. Most recently in 2021 or 2022 in the Superdome with my youngest which was fun. Sadly I passed on seeing Page and Plant in 1992 or 1994 or whenever they toured together with that orchestra. I did see Plant at Preservation Hall which holds about 75 people and I was front row about four feet from him while he sang. Really amazing.
Holy shit you're old.
 
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Guadana

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Oh man, I absolutely loved Beniers. Easy to see why, now.

But just as importantly, Led Zeppelin was clearly better than the Stones. Physical Graffiti and Houses of the Holy are two of the 10 best rock albums ever recorded. And I'd rank every one of their albums in the top 100 of all time. The Stones were terrific, but they have as many meh albums as great albums. And I'm sorry, Mick Jagger is no Robert Plant, Keith Richards is no Jimmy Page, and no one is John Bonham.

The rest of my post was hypothetical. In reality, I love both cats and dogs. But I would also argue you're correct in saying you don't make many mistakes. I'm always touting my buddy @Guadana on the draft threads and Twitter, haha.


Zeppelin is king, brother.
And Brock Faber. Another typical hockey player to be favorite on Guadanas lists. I spent a lot of time to tell why Schneider should be drafted in the first round or at least by top 20 pick, but I didn't tell nothing about why Faber should. Great young hockey player and I was just okay with him - liked him as a pick for LA but I didn't scream when he dropped to 45th selection.
May be its not that big, but its not good by my standards. At least for me.

Yeah Zeppelin are easy over the most bands. Someone mentioned difference of the years, but Beatles were earlier and they are easy better than Stones. Amount of levels, differences between albums, depth of harmonies, rhythmic diversity etc, Zeppelin in miles ahead. And Plant by himself released a lot of great music on solo albums.
People who love good music, should listen his two last albums from 2014 and 2017. Embrace another fall is a huge song.

.


I don't like the lottery ticket analogy because it insinuates drafting late is all luck. Sure, there's some luck involved, but you increase that luck with good scouting and draft philosophy. It's more like a suicide pool -- sure, luck is greatly involved, but the smarter people have a far better chance of hitting it big.
There are no luck. People who think that trading picks is okay and they cost nothing , just dint understand what they are talking about. Good scouts drafting good players regularly in later rounds. Some will not translate the game on the new level, some will do it. This is literally how some teams have 10-15 prospects with nhl potential and some teams haven't even 5.
 
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My3Sons

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And Brock Faber. Another typical hockey player to be favorite on Guadanas lists. I spent a lot of time to tell why Schneider should be drafted in the first round or at least by top 20 pick, but I didn't tell nothing about why Faber should. Great young hockey player and I was just okay with him - liked him as a pick for LA but I didn't scream when he dropped to 45th selection.
May be its not that big, but its not good by my standards. At least for me.

Yeah Zeppelin are easy over the most bands. Someone mentioned difference of the years, but Beatles were earlier and they are easy better than Stones. Amount of levels, differences between albums, depth of harmonies, rhythmic diversity etc, Zeppelin in miles ahead. And Plant by himself released a lot of great music on solo albums.
People who love good music, should listen his two last albums from 2014 and 2017. Embrace another fall is a huge song.


There are no luck. People who think that trading picks is okay and they cost nothing , just dint understand what they are talking about. Good scouts drafting good players regularly in later rounds. Some will not translate the game on the new level, some will do it. This is literally how some teams have 10-15 prospects with nhl potential and some teams haven't even 5.
You are one of very few posters who can speak about themselves in thr third person and have it be totally natural. Beyond that I’d say the Beatles exist ina somewhat different category than any other band from that era. Maybe they are only comparable to Elvis in some sense. It’s not a musical issue it’s more that they transcend popular music in some way. John and Paul’s boyhood homes are museums now. Places they have played have essentially become shrines to them (EMI studio gets renamed Abbey Road and the former Savile Row Apple building still has a memorial to them on the first floor and I think the Cavern Club has been preserved). Their movies aren’t just performance movies and their collectibles and memorabilia encompasses things no other group or artist from that era would have had. That said “best” is subjective and everyone has their preferences. When it comes to the Beatles you also have to decide how to asses their post Beatles albums. Are they a continuation in a roundabout way (I know John saw them as a continuation in some sense). I enjoy a lot of the classic rock era music and I am disappointed it’s somewhat ignored in popular music culture today by younger audiences.
 
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