Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part II

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Triumph

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Oct 2, 2007
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Come on now you know damn well it’s not just because he’s no longer a devil. Plenty of ex-players on new teams that this board like and would even want back in some cases.

This is where you get into the deeply erroneous practice of assigning an opinion to 'the board'. I think on balance most people here would agree with the opinion I expressed on Bahl above, that he's no superstar but he has a future in the league and he's a decent player. But the fact that he has been traded away means that his upside to the Devils is gone, and that's a lot of what a young player is to fans here. Therefore, some people will be eager to say that he's irrelevant or doesn't matter, and I think that's what Nubmer6 was referring to seeing here.

Players like Bahl don't matter all that much, but it's more than nothing, and this is a nuance that's difficult to believe and/or express.
 

Brodeur

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I forget what triggered it, but I thought of Beckman recently. There was a time after the 2019 Draft that some main board stat watchers had Beckman ranked over Matt Boldy. Beckman led the WHL in scoring in 2019-20 while Boldy had a rough start as a freshman (he was shooting 2% in the first half if I recall correctly).

I've caught Iowa a couple times when they played in San Diego. Beckman didn't stand out, but it makes sense to give both guys fresh starts.
 

PKs Broken Stick

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Assuming full healthy think this a good number. Allen is more than capable of playing 30 and Markstrom can hopefully give us 50 mostly solid games without being overworked.

Yea if we give 50 to him, maybe give him a bit more early on and then spread it out later in the season.
 

tailfins

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First off...why the hell was the Markstrom thread closed?!?!?

Here's what I was about to post...



My initial reaction to the trade was that I felt we gave up more than I would've liked...though when the news of the retention level eventually trickled out I thought it was more of a fair trade. I'm also looking at it from the viewpoint of a Devils homer though that wanted to see Fitz outright "win" the trade...which is how much of the hockey world seems to view it. I've listened to a number of podcast that all rated in it NJ's favor and just using this one article as an example:


The writers had it as:

Sean Gentile
Devils: A
Flames: D+

Shayna Goldman
Devils: A
Flames: C-

Eric Duhatschek:
Devils: A
Flames: C-

So...straight A's across the board for the Devils from 3 writers that I don't know why they'd be slanted towards NJ versus a C- or lower across the board for the Flames.

Gentile's write-up is especially scathing and worth the read.


Sean Gentille: When the initial reports on this one started trickling out, the dots seemed easy enough to connect. The Devils, submarined in part by poor goaltending in what was supposed to be a breakout season, had identified Jacob Markstrom as the solution to their problems, and they’d been chasing him for months. His no-movement clause had been an issue — but those sorts of issues are often resolved, especially when the acquiring team is, y’know, good. Most of all, a solid prospect pool and a lottery pick in 2024 meant that Tom Fitzgerald had options available to meet any ask.

“Markstrom to the Devils for the No. 10 pick next week? Fair enough on both sides. Everyone gets a B-plus” is where I landed before we knew the details.

Then, we learned the details — and then, the grades changed. This is nothing less than a heist for New Jersey, who acquired the goaltender of their dreams for … what exactly? The No. 10 pick is staying put. The Devils’ prospect pool is intact. Their best NHL-ready young players are still in the fold. And, maybe most shockingly, they’re saving nearly $2 million on Markstrom’s cap hit for the remaining two years of his deal.

None of this is to say Markstrom is perfect; he’s not quite a franchise guy, mainly because he’s prone to the performance swings that seem baked into 95 percent of NHL goaltenders. He is, though, a firmly above-average starter with the potential to, at times, look like something more. Thanks to Calgary’s salary retention, that’s exactly what the Devils are paying him to be.

Maybe most importantly, last season, only Connor Hellebuyck and Jordan Binnington had him beat league-wide in Goals Saved Above Expected. That’s great for anyone, let alone someone who’s about to replace the Vitek Vaneceks, Nico Dawses and Akira Schmids of the world. The Devils didn’t miss the playoffs solely because of their goaltending — an injury-decimated defense was another huge factor — but they came pretty close. Now, they’ve turned that weakness into a strength for a protected pick and a third-pair defenseman.

That brings us to Calgary’s end of the deal, which starts with the obligatory disclaimer: GM Craig Conroy was in a tough spot because of the no-movement clause. The market was what it was. They’re not entirely incorrect — but they’re still excuses, and they’re similar to what we heard at the trade deadline. Conroy, tough as his situation may be, has yet to win a trade, and he’s running low on tradable pieces. It helps to have Dustin Wolf in the fold as the heir apparent, and it certainly seems like a large chunk of the Flames fan base was ready to move on from Markstrom. That doesn’t make this one any less underwhelming, especially given the very real possibility that Markstrom drives that 2025 first-round pick somewhere into the 20s.

When you lose a deal in this many ways — no prime pick, no prospect, no impact lineup player, money sent the other way — the grade can’t be anything but harsh.



And yet...your view of the trade is that we "got bent over".

right-yeah-right.gif


Best case scenario was always that Markstrom refuses to play for Calgary again and will only accept a trade to NJ. That didn't happen though. I have no doubt that Calgary and Markstrom were both resigned to a split this offseason, but it was also made clear by both Friedman as well as Markstrom himself in his post-trade interview that he was willing to waive his NMC for other teams as well, which certainly put some pressure on Fitz to get a deal done or move on. At the very least it seems Ottawa and Toronto were in on him.

Was he the ideal solution? No, though I don't think there was an ideal solution out there for me. Markstrom was probably always the best solution though as the acquisition cost would be much less than Saros or Ullmark and I had reservations about handing over long-term, high AAV contracts to either of them before they even got in the crease.

Maybe we could've run it back with Kahkonen - would've at least saved some assets, though I don't think an Allen/Kahkonen duo has any shot of doing much damage in the playoffs. A somewhat rested Markstrom after having much less travel and a 1A/1B tandem with Allen? Yeah, there's at least the potential there for a long run in the playoffs. And even if they don't win it all these next two seasons, whatever playoff experience you can get in for a young core is really valuable.

The hope is that one of the young 4 goalie prospects we have in the pipeline can step up after Markstrom - at a much lower cap hit and without the risk of a long-term, high AAV contract that would've come with Saros or Ullmark.

Would be curious to hear what your ideal solution would've been though.
Gentile was nuts. Markstrom for #10OA was fair on both sides? GTFO.

Duhatschek graded the trade a B- for Calgary. So, not great, but better than C-. His main point is that Calgary's return was less than what was rumored. Not that it was less than market. I think he pretty accurately sums up Bahl's potential and the value of the 1st.
 

guitarguyvic

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This is where you get into the deeply erroneous practice of assigning an opinion to 'the board'. I think on balance most people here would agree with the opinion I expressed on Bahl above, that he's no superstar but he has a future in the league and he's a decent player. But the fact that he has been traded away means that his upside to the Devils is gone, and that's a lot of what a young player is to fans here. Therefore, some people will be eager to say that he's irrelevant or doesn't matter, and I think that's what Nubmer6 was referring to seeing here.

Players like Bahl don't matter all that much, but it's more than nothing, and this is a nuance that's difficult to believe and/or express.

This is where you get into the deeply erroneous practice of assigning an opinion to 'the board'. I think on balance most people here would agree with the opinion I expressed on Bahl above, that he's no superstar but he has a future in the league and he's a decent player. But the fact that he has been traded away means that his upside to the Devils is gone, and that's a lot of what a young player is to fans here. Therefore, some people will be eager to say that he's irrelevant or doesn't matter, and I think that's what Nubmer6 was referring to seeing here.

Players like Bahl don't matter all that much, but it's more than nothing, and this is a nuance that's difficult to believe and/or express.
Assigning an opinion to the board is not what’s happening. When I speak of the board generally in this way, I’m referring to the fact that there is a substantial contingent of posters who regularly utilize strawmans, spin, and accusations of “negativity” as a defense mechanism for their preferred narrative/outlook, which more often times than not align with a general consensus here. So yes, most posters do likely have a nuanced opinion on things. But what I’m referring to is the not so small contingent of folks who engage in the above tactics, which I would argue greatly contributes to deterioration of nuanced discussion.
 

dls

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Jan 20, 2009
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WIsh List:
Draft BPA @ #10 (Dickinson, Buiim, Tij, MBG, Helen) whoever drops
Sign mercer long term or bridge
Trade for Ross Colton (WPG #2 2025 & Prospect)
Sign Trenin 2mmx3yrs
Sign Dillon 4mmx2yrs

Timo/Nico/Bratt
Palat/Hughes/Mercer
Haula/Colton/Holtz
Trenin/Lazar/Bastian
Extra - Foote/Macdermit

Sieg/Dougie
Hughes/Marino
Dillon/Nemec

Markstrom/Allen

Give Casey an oppty late in season to see if he can make an Impact during playoffs.
 

Triumph

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Oct 2, 2007
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Assigning an opinion to the board is not what’s happening. When I speak of the board generally in this way, I’m referring to the fact that there is a substantial contingent of posters who regularly utilize strawmans, spin, and accusations of “negativity” as a defense mechanism for their preferred narrative/outlook, which more often times than not align with a general consensus here. So yes, most posters do likely have a nuanced opinion on things. But what I’m referring to is the not so small contingent of folks who engage in the above tactics, which I would argue greatly contributes to deterioration of nuanced discussion.

I'd argue that this is a reaction to the contingent of the board who stomps their feet every time anything happens and who doomcast about everything, many of whom I have banished to the land of wind and ghosts. But yes, this certainly does happen too.
 

TheUnseenHand

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I strongly disagree with this but we’ll see. He’s shown little more than that he can just maybe keep up at the NHL level. He’s big but not physical and is slow and has very limited skill. Maybe a bottom 6 NHLer and I’m fine giving him a chance as a the 14th forward. Don’t love it.

The last part is an insane statement to me. Not to be rude but he has not only a lack of wheels but a complete lack of offensive skill. He was a 53 point, 26 goal scorer at the AHL level (translated to 82 games) which isn’t all that impressive. Essentially, I see pretty much zero potential at this point for him to a top 6 player alongside our star center. I think it’s far more likely he’s out of the league in the next couple seasons than that. Think the ceiling with him is a less physically, slighter better offensively version of Bastian.

I really don't understand this organizations fascination for some players and hatred for others. Foote sucks. If he is a regular in the lineup, it's a problem.
 

Brodeur

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WIsh List:
Draft BPA @ #10 (Dickinson, Buiim, Tij, MBG, Helen) whoever drops
Sign mercer long term or bridge
Trade for Ross Colton (WPG #2 2025 & Prospect)
Sign Trenin 2mmx3yrs
Sign Dillon 4mmx2yrs

Timo/Nico/Bratt
Palat/Hughes/Mercer
Haula/Colton/Holtz
Trenin/Lazar/Bastian
Extra - Foote/Macdermit

Sieg/Dougie
Hughes/Marino
Dillon/Nemec

Markstrom/Allen

Give Casey an oppty late in season to see if he can make an Impact during playoffs.

My wish list is similar. I think Colton would fetch more, but we'll see what Colorado's plan is. I think Dillon might get a little more term since the UFA D is kinda shallow.
 

Captain3rdLine

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Sep 24, 2020
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I really don't understand this organizations fascination for some players and hatred for others. Foote sucks. If he is a regular in the lineup, it's a problem.
I don’t care that much about him being a shot as long as it’s not of consequence to others. Although I think it may have been last off-season. Would much rather have kept Boqvist than pencil in Foote.

That being said I think the opportunity Foote is being given has a lot to do with his last name and connections. And to an extent his size and the fact that he was a first rounder.
 

TheUnseenHand

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Feb 5, 2010
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WIsh List:
Draft BPA @ #10 (Dickinson, Buiim, Tij, MBG, Helen) whoever drops
Sign mercer long term or bridge
Trade for Ross Colton (WPG #2 2025 & Prospect)
Sign Trenin 2mmx3yrs
Sign Dillon 4mmx2yrs

Timo/Nico/Bratt
Palat/Hughes/Mercer
Haula/Colton/Holtz
Trenin/Lazar/Bastian
Extra - Foote/Macdermit

Sieg/Dougie
Hughes/Marino
Dillon/Nemec

Markstrom/Allen

Give Casey an oppty late in season to see if he can make an Impact during playoffs.

I'd flip Mercer and Holtz.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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@Zajacs Bowl Cut


This is such a typical response from you and it’s pretty ubiquitous on the board as a whole. This place is consistently littered with strawman garbage. I didn’t make a statement about what I expect to happen this season. I made an “if” statement, with a clear intention of calling out that it’s going to take more than just inserting a mid 30’s tandem of average goalies for this team to have success. Nothing less, nothing more.

Some of that “more” has been put in place (like the coaching), some of it is TBD as we move through the off-season.

It’s like if you guys sense any sort of deviation from whatever narrative you’re vouching for, you immediately jump into defense mode. It’s really f***ing immature.

this entire post is actually hilarious coming from you tbh. You don't think I know what you were doing with that line of posting? Come on man. We aren't dummies.
 

JimEIV

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Feb 19, 2003
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First off...why the hell was the Markstrom thread closed?!?!?

Here's what I was about to post...



My initial reaction to the trade was that I felt we gave up more than I would've liked...though when the news of the retention level eventually trickled out I thought it was more of a fair trade. I'm also looking at it from the viewpoint of a Devils homer though that wanted to see Fitz outright "win" the trade...which is how much of the hockey world seems to view it. I've listened to a number of podcast that all rated in it NJ's favor and just using this one article as an example:


The writers had it as:

Sean Gentile
Devils: A
Flames: D+

Shayna Goldman
Devils: A
Flames: C-

Eric Duhatschek:
Devils: A
Flames: C-

So...straight A's across the board for the Devils from 3 writers that I don't know why they'd be slanted towards NJ versus a C- or lower across the board for the Flames.

Gentile's write-up is especially scathing and worth the read.


Sean Gentille: When the initial reports on this one started trickling out, the dots seemed easy enough to connect. The Devils, submarined in part by poor goaltending in what was supposed to be a breakout season, had identified Jacob Markstrom as the solution to their problems, and they’d been chasing him for months. His no-movement clause had been an issue — but those sorts of issues are often resolved, especially when the acquiring team is, y’know, good. Most of all, a solid prospect pool and a lottery pick in 2024 meant that Tom Fitzgerald had options available to meet any ask.

“Markstrom to the Devils for the No. 10 pick next week? Fair enough on both sides. Everyone gets a B-plus” is where I landed before we knew the details.

Then, we learned the details — and then, the grades changed. This is nothing less than a heist for New Jersey, who acquired the goaltender of their dreams for … what exactly? The No. 10 pick is staying put. The Devils’ prospect pool is intact. Their best NHL-ready young players are still in the fold. And, maybe most shockingly, they’re saving nearly $2 million on Markstrom’s cap hit for the remaining two years of his deal.

None of this is to say Markstrom is perfect; he’s not quite a franchise guy, mainly because he’s prone to the performance swings that seem baked into 95 percent of NHL goaltenders. He is, though, a firmly above-average starter with the potential to, at times, look like something more. Thanks to Calgary’s salary retention, that’s exactly what the Devils are paying him to be.

Maybe most importantly, last season, only Connor Hellebuyck and Jordan Binnington had him beat league-wide in Goals Saved Above Expected. That’s great for anyone, let alone someone who’s about to replace the Vitek Vaneceks, Nico Dawses and Akira Schmids of the world. The Devils didn’t miss the playoffs solely because of their goaltending — an injury-decimated defense was another huge factor — but they came pretty close. Now, they’ve turned that weakness into a strength for a protected pick and a third-pair defenseman.

That brings us to Calgary’s end of the deal, which starts with the obligatory disclaimer: GM Craig Conroy was in a tough spot because of the no-movement clause. The market was what it was. They’re not entirely incorrect — but they’re still excuses, and they’re similar to what we heard at the trade deadline. Conroy, tough as his situation may be, has yet to win a trade, and he’s running low on tradable pieces. It helps to have Dustin Wolf in the fold as the heir apparent, and it certainly seems like a large chunk of the Flames fan base was ready to move on from Markstrom. That doesn’t make this one any less underwhelming, especially given the very real possibility that Markstrom drives that 2025 first-round pick somewhere into the 20s.

When you lose a deal in this many ways — no prime pick, no prospect, no impact lineup player, money sent the other way — the grade can’t be anything but harsh.



And yet...your view of the trade is that we "got bent over".

right-yeah-right.gif


Best case scenario was always that Markstrom refuses to play for Calgary again and will only accept a trade to NJ. That didn't happen though. I have no doubt that Calgary and Markstrom were both resigned to a split this offseason, but it was also made clear by both Friedman as well as Markstrom himself in his post-trade interview that he was willing to waive his NMC for other teams as well, which certainly put some pressure on Fitz to get a deal done or move on. At the very least it seems Ottawa and Toronto were in on him.

Was he the ideal solution? No, though I don't think there was an ideal solution out there for me. Markstrom was probably always the best solution though as the acquisition cost would be much less than Saros or Ullmark and I had reservations about handing over long-term, high AAV contracts to either of them before they even got in the crease.

Maybe we could've run it back with Kahkonen - would've at least saved some assets, though I don't think an Allen/Kahkonen duo has any shot of doing much damage in the playoffs. A somewhat rested Markstrom after having much less travel and a 1A/1B tandem with Allen? Yeah, there's at least the potential there for a long run in the playoffs. And even if they don't win it all these next two seasons, whatever playoff experience you can get in for a young core is really valuable.

The hope is that one of the young 4 goalie prospects we have in the pipeline can step up after Markstrom - at a much lower cap hit and without the risk of a long-term, high AAV contract that would've come with Saros or Ullmark.

Would be curious to hear what your ideal solution would've been though.
I appreciate you taking the time to write that post.

I do believe we paid to much and I also believe a roster player shouldn't have been going the other way.

I don't have a problem with the idea that a stopgap goaltender is a solution to allow younger players time to grow... it's a reasonable argument/thought process. But the price for a 35 year old stopgap solution should not be a 1st and a roster player ...to my thinking that cost is closer to a real long term solution. Maybe a little light but not far off... it'll be interesting to see what Ullmark and Saros return if they are indeed moved

I don't know what the circumstances are with Ullmark and Saros.... Maybe logistically we couldn't get or afford them?

But I definitely see both Ullmark and Saros as more appropriate solutions to move a roster player and 1st round pick for.

Also I think we had the upper hand in the Markstrom situation but we paid like he was the last and only option.
 

Bleedred

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Were you not around when we got rid of Urbom, Rykov, Santini, etc etc etc? :laugh::laugh::laugh:
I don't think anyone cared about Santini by the time we got rid of him. I think everyone was over him by that point. And didn't he also go as part of the Subban trade? We were pretty excited because we thought we were getting a still really good, if not elite PK Subban, which is not what we wound up getting.

But yeah,. Urbom was a meltdown from some people. It was my go-to thread to read for a long time when I wanted to go down memory lane and needed a laugh. I believe it was part of the team discussion thread, and it never got it's own thread.

I don't exactly remember the reaction to Rykov, but I can imagine it probably wasn't good, if not more because of who he was getting traded to. I'm surprised the reaction to Rykov didn't eclipse Urbom, because of who he was going to, and the fact that at that time I think Rykov was a bigger prospect with more potential than Urbom by 2013. Rykov also hadn't even come to North America yet, while Urbom was entering his fourth pro year in North America and showing nothing.

Maybe the Rykov reaction did eclipse Urbom, but I just don't remember it or maybe I just didn't find it as ridiculous because Rykov at the time was more valuable than Urbom when he was waived, and we also sent him to the Rangers.
 

TheUnseenHand

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Feb 5, 2010
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I don’t care that much about him being a shot as long as it’s not of consequence to others. Although I think it may have been last off-season. Would much rather have kept Boqvist than pencil in Foote.

That being said I think the opportunity Foote is being given has a lot to do with his last name and connections. And to an extent his size and the fact that he was a first rounder.

Boqvist has got to be the biggest head scratcher of Fitz's time so far. I mean, yeah, he was replaceable. But in the context of where he was going to play and how he was going to be paid, you are hoping to maybe find someone else as good. Why not just keep him?
 

SteveCangialosi123

Registered User
Feb 17, 2012
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I really don't understand this organizations fascination for some players and hatred for others. Foote sucks. If he is a regular in the lineup, it's a problem.
Foote has been a very efficient scorer in his limited time, has NHL size, and seems to play a decent game on the boards and down low. It’s understandable that they see him as being able to carve out a bottom 6 role over Clarke. Guy just really needs to stay healthy.
 
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