Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part II

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Nubmer6

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Was about to post this in the Markstrom thelread, but it seems to have been locked RIGHT as I hit the post button...

I agree with the trade, and if Bahl was necessary to get it done, so be it, but I'm not sure why everyone's so down on him.
The guy only played basically one and a half seasons, and big, shutdown defenders take time to develop. It's not like he isn't going to get better.

That being said, as @JimEIV has said, we had too many rookies and sophomores on the back end, so letting him go and replacing him with a vet shutdown D that's not Smith isn't the worst idea. We really do need to start filling LD pipeline though, after losing Bahl and Mukhamadulin and having guys like Vulojevic seemingly unable to take a
step.
 
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Oneiro

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Yeah, I don't see why you can't pencil in Bratt next to Nico and Meier as the LW.

Foote will get his chance this year. I like him, clearly the organization does too. Small sample size, but to me, he showed a lot of IQ and board acumen given his lack of wheels. There's a bit of me that thinks he could possibly be a great fit with Jack and Mercer.
 

Triumph

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Devils were likely to lose Clarke on waivers with how strong his AHL numbers were and not much of a spot for him.

One thing I will give Fitzgerald is he does seem to always be willing to give kids a shot elsewhere when the Devils run out of a spot for them. He did it last year with Walsh/Bowers trade.

I would imagine that has to mean something around the league in the eyes of players and agents.

The Devils had no chance of losing Clarke on waivers. He is exceptionally unlikely to be selected on waivers by anybody. Every team has a guy like Graeme Clarke in their organization.
 
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guitarguyvic

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@Zajacs Bowl Cut

so its okay to be negative about the team/system, but not okay to be positive about the team/system. Got it. Makes total sense!
This is such a typical response from you and it’s pretty ubiquitous on the board as a whole. This place is consistently littered with strawman garbage. I didn’t make a statement about what I expect to happen this season. I made an “if” statement, with a clear intention of calling out that it’s going to take more than just inserting a mid 30’s tandem of average goalies for this team to have success. Nothing less, nothing more.

Some of that “more” has been put in place (like the coaching), some of it is TBD as we move through the off-season.

It’s like if you guys sense any sort of deviation from whatever narrative you’re vouching for, you immediately jump into defense mode. It’s really f***ing immature.
 

Triumph

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Was about to post this in the Markstrom thelread, but it seems to have been locked RIGHT as I hit the post button...

I agree with the trade, and if Bahl was necessary to get it done, so be it, but I'm not sure why everyone's so down on him.
The guy only played basically one and a half seasons, and big, shutdown defenders take time to develop. It's not like he isn't going to get better.

That being said, as @JimEIV has said, we had to many rookies and sophomores on the back end, so letting him go and replacing him with a vet shutdown D that's not Smith isn't the worst idea. We really do need to start filling LD pipeline though, after losing Bahl and Mukhamadulin and having guys like Vulojevic seemingly unable to take a
step.

Everyone's down on him because he's no longer a Devil. If you asked people a week ago what they thought of Bahl, the responses would be different. That said, I don't think Bahl is all that good, and he's certainly not irreplacable - his offensive deficiencies mean he has to be a fabulous defender to be worthwhile and I'm not sure he can get there. Still think he needs more meanness to his game, too.
 

Captain3rdLine

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Foote will get his chance this year. I like him, clearly the organization does too. Small sample size, but to me, he showed a lot of IQ and board acumen given his lack of wheels. There's a bit of me that thinks he could possibly be a great fit with Jack and Mercer.
I strongly disagree with this but we’ll see. He’s shown little more than that he can just maybe keep up at the NHL level. He’s big but not physical and is slow and has very limited skill. Maybe a bottom 6 NHLer and I’m fine giving him a chance as a the 14th forward. Don’t love it.

The last part is an insane statement to me. Not to be rude but he has not only a lack of wheels but a complete lack of offensive skill. He was a 53 point, 26 goal scorer at the AHL level (translated to 82 games) which isn’t all that impressive. Essentially, I see pretty much zero potential at this point for him to a top 6 player alongside our star center. I think it’s far more likely he’s out of the league in the next couple seasons than that. Think the ceiling with him is a less physically, slighter better offensively version of Bastian.
 
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Oneiro

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I strongly disagree with this but we’ll see. He’s shown little more than that he can just maybe keep up at the NHL level. He’s big but not physical and is slow and has very limited skill. Maybe a bottom 6 NHLer and I’m fine giving him a chance as a the 14th forward. Don’t love it.

The last part is an insane statement to me. Not to be rude but he has not only a lack of wheels but a complete lack of offensive skill. He was a 53 point, 26 goal scorer at the AHL level (translated to 82 games) which isn’t all that impressive. Essentially, I see pretty much zero potential at this point for him to a top 6 player alongside our star center. I think it’s far more likely he’s out of the league in the next couple seasons than that. Think the ceiling with him is a less physically, slighter better offensively version of Bastian.
We've disagreed on this subject before so no need to re-hash it.

But if the bolded were true, he would have been gone a while back. The team doesn't view it this way.
 

Nubmer6

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Everyone's down on him because he's no longer a Devil. If you asked people a week ago what they thought of Bahl, the responses would be different. That said, I don't think Bahl is all that good, and he's certainly not irreplacable - his offensive deficiencies mean he has to be a fabulous defender to be worthwhile and I'm not sure he can get there. Still think he needs more meanness to his game, too.
Yes, meanness would be nice but even without it, I like big DMen for their length and reach.
 

Alex NJD

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I think if they plan to go 60+ games with Markstrom, they're gunna regret it. Please just go 40-40. He isn't 28 anymore and he's not MB30.
I was thinking they'd probably go 50 - 32 split. Probably give a few starts to Daws/Schmid here and there. Avoid giving up the 2nd rounder for Allen's games played
 

HBK27

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First off...why the hell was the Markstrom thread closed?!?!?

Here's what I was about to post...

This is correct. And in no way should've Calgary been able to dictate the return or receive a starting 23 year old Dman for a 35 year old that they were going to be forced to move anyway.

We got bent over for temporary not so ideal solution.

My initial reaction to the trade was that I felt we gave up more than I would've liked...though when the news of the retention level eventually trickled out I thought it was more of a fair trade. I'm also looking at it from the viewpoint of a Devils homer though that wanted to see Fitz outright "win" the trade...which is how much of the hockey world seems to view it. I've listened to a number of podcast that all rated in it NJ's favor and just using this one article as an example:


The writers had it as:

Sean Gentile
Devils: A
Flames: D+

Shayna Goldman
Devils: A
Flames: C-

Eric Duhatschek:
Devils: A
Flames: C-

So...straight A's across the board for the Devils from 3 writers that I don't know why they'd be slanted towards NJ versus a C- or lower across the board for the Flames.

Gentile's write-up is especially scathing and worth the read.


Sean Gentille: When the initial reports on this one started trickling out, the dots seemed easy enough to connect. The Devils, submarined in part by poor goaltending in what was supposed to be a breakout season, had identified Jacob Markstrom as the solution to their problems, and they’d been chasing him for months. His no-movement clause had been an issue — but those sorts of issues are often resolved, especially when the acquiring team is, y’know, good. Most of all, a solid prospect pool and a lottery pick in 2024 meant that Tom Fitzgerald had options available to meet any ask.

“Markstrom to the Devils for the No. 10 pick next week? Fair enough on both sides. Everyone gets a B-plus” is where I landed before we knew the details.

Then, we learned the details — and then, the grades changed. This is nothing less than a heist for New Jersey, who acquired the goaltender of their dreams for … what exactly? The No. 10 pick is staying put. The Devils’ prospect pool is intact. Their best NHL-ready young players are still in the fold. And, maybe most shockingly, they’re saving nearly $2 million on Markstrom’s cap hit for the remaining two years of his deal.

None of this is to say Markstrom is perfect; he’s not quite a franchise guy, mainly because he’s prone to the performance swings that seem baked into 95 percent of NHL goaltenders. He is, though, a firmly above-average starter with the potential to, at times, look like something more. Thanks to Calgary’s salary retention, that’s exactly what the Devils are paying him to be.

Maybe most importantly, last season, only Connor Hellebuyck and Jordan Binnington had him beat league-wide in Goals Saved Above Expected. That’s great for anyone, let alone someone who’s about to replace the Vitek Vaneceks, Nico Dawses and Akira Schmids of the world. The Devils didn’t miss the playoffs solely because of their goaltending — an injury-decimated defense was another huge factor — but they came pretty close. Now, they’ve turned that weakness into a strength for a protected pick and a third-pair defenseman.

That brings us to Calgary’s end of the deal, which starts with the obligatory disclaimer: GM Craig Conroy was in a tough spot because of the no-movement clause. The market was what it was. They’re not entirely incorrect — but they’re still excuses, and they’re similar to what we heard at the trade deadline. Conroy, tough as his situation may be, has yet to win a trade, and he’s running low on tradable pieces. It helps to have Dustin Wolf in the fold as the heir apparent, and it certainly seems like a large chunk of the Flames fan base was ready to move on from Markstrom. That doesn’t make this one any less underwhelming, especially given the very real possibility that Markstrom drives that 2025 first-round pick somewhere into the 20s.

When you lose a deal in this many ways — no prime pick, no prospect, no impact lineup player, money sent the other way — the grade can’t be anything but harsh.



And yet...your view of the trade is that we "got bent over".

right-yeah-right.gif


Best case scenario was always that Markstrom refuses to play for Calgary again and will only accept a trade to NJ. That didn't happen though. I have no doubt that Calgary and Markstrom were both resigned to a split this offseason, but it was also made clear by both Friedman as well as Markstrom himself in his post-trade interview that he was willing to waive his NMC for other teams as well, which certainly put some pressure on Fitz to get a deal done or move on. At the very least it seems Ottawa and Toronto were in on him.

Was he the ideal solution? No, though I don't think there was an ideal solution out there for me. Markstrom was probably always the best solution though as the acquisition cost would be much less than Saros or Ullmark and I had reservations about handing over long-term, high AAV contracts to either of them before they even got in the crease.

Maybe we could've run it back with Kahkonen - would've at least saved some assets, though I don't think an Allen/Kahkonen duo has any shot of doing much damage in the playoffs. A somewhat rested Markstrom after having much less travel and a 1A/1B tandem with Allen? Yeah, there's at least the potential there for a long run in the playoffs. And even if they don't win it all these next two seasons, whatever playoff experience you can get in for a young core is really valuable.

The hope is that one of the young 4 goalie prospects we have in the pipeline can step up after Markstrom - at a much lower cap hit and without the risk of a long-term, high AAV contract that would've come with Saros or Ullmark.

Would be curious to hear what your ideal solution would've been though.
 

Captain3rdLine

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We've disagreed on this subject before so no need to re-hash it.

But if the bolded were true, he would have been gone a while back. The team doesn't view it this way.
He’s been injured to much and too often to find that out. They’ve been sitting here waiting to give him a chance.

And let’s not act for a second like his name doesn’t help that a ton. I’m not sure they’d be waiting this much to give him a chance of it weren’t for his last name. There’s zero chance they were ever just gonna get rid of him during his injuries.
 
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guitarguyvic

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I agree with the trade, and if Bahl was necessary to get it done, so be it, but I'm not sure why everyone's so down on him.
The guy only played basically one and a half seasons, and big, shutdown defenders take time to develop. It's not like he isn't going to get better.
Very simple answer to this. Because people here feel the need to spin everything in a way that protects their preferred narrative or outlook. That’s why.
 

Triumph

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I haven't seen the other side of the debate but one of Jim's central conceits is that goaltending skill doesn't exist. It's entirely possible that that is the empty hole in the argument that is somehow driving all of you crazy.
 
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Moist ReadOnly

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Yeah, I don't see why you can't pencil in Bratt next to Nico and Meier as the LW.

Foote will get his chance this year. I like him, clearly the organization does too. Small sample size, but to me, he showed a lot of IQ and board acumen given his lack of wheels. There's a bit of me that thinks he could possibly be a great fit with Jack and Mercer.
I think if Keefe is given another RH middle-6 capable talent, or Holtz pans out, Bratt-Hischier-Meier is our best possible line

Thatd leave Palat-Hughes-???? / whether those question marks are Holtz or an outside talent we'll see; though Id like to keep Dawson Mercer on the third line so we have some standout talent in the bottom-6
 

guitarguyvic

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Everyone's down on him because he's no longer a Devil. If you asked people a week ago what they thought of Bahl, the responses would be different. That said, I don't think Bahl is all that good, and he's certainly not irreplacable - his offensive deficiencies mean he has to be a fabulous defender to be worthwhile and I'm not sure he can get there. Still think he needs more meanness to his game, too.
Come on now you know damn well it’s not just because he’s no longer a devil. Plenty of ex-players on new teams that this board like and would even want back in some cases.
 

PKs Broken Stick

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A yr too early on Ottawas side..theyre gonna make a run at being competitive this yr ( hence their heavy interest in ullmark ) if they suck again Brady will want out before his NMC kicks in July 1st 2025

Isn't it better for the player to want out when their nmc kicks in? Gives them leverage to go where he wants. The GM would want to move before it kicks in.
 

Devils731

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First off...why the hell was the Markstrom thread closed?!?!?

Here's what I was about to post...



My initial reaction to the trade was that I felt we gave up more than I would've liked...though when the news of the retention level eventually trickled out I thought it was more of a fair trade. I'm also looking at it from the viewpoint of a Devils homer though that wanted to see Fitz outright "win" the trade...which is how much of the hockey world seems to view it. I've listened to a number of podcast that all rated in it NJ's favor and just using this one article as an example:


The writers had it as:

Sean Gentile
Devils: A
Flames: D+

Shayna Goldman
Devils: A
Flames: C-

Eric Duhatschek:
Devils: A
Flames: C-

So...straight A's across the board for the Devils from 3 writers that I don't know why they'd be slanted towards NJ versus a C- or lower across the board for the Flames.

Gentile's write-up is especially scathing and worth the read.


Sean Gentille: When the initial reports on this one started trickling out, the dots seemed easy enough to connect. The Devils, submarined in part by poor goaltending in what was supposed to be a breakout season, had identified Jacob Markstrom as the solution to their problems, and they’d been chasing him for months. His no-movement clause had been an issue — but those sorts of issues are often resolved, especially when the acquiring team is, y’know, good. Most of all, a solid prospect pool and a lottery pick in 2024 meant that Tom Fitzgerald had options available to meet any ask.

“Markstrom to the Devils for the No. 10 pick next week? Fair enough on both sides. Everyone gets a B-plus” is where I landed before we knew the details.

Then, we learned the details — and then, the grades changed. This is nothing less than a heist for New Jersey, who acquired the goaltender of their dreams for … what exactly? The No. 10 pick is staying put. The Devils’ prospect pool is intact. Their best NHL-ready young players are still in the fold. And, maybe most shockingly, they’re saving nearly $2 million on Markstrom’s cap hit for the remaining two years of his deal.

None of this is to say Markstrom is perfect; he’s not quite a franchise guy, mainly because he’s prone to the performance swings that seem baked into 95 percent of NHL goaltenders. He is, though, a firmly above-average starter with the potential to, at times, look like something more. Thanks to Calgary’s salary retention, that’s exactly what the Devils are paying him to be.

Maybe most importantly, last season, only Connor Hellebuyck and Jordan Binnington had him beat league-wide in Goals Saved Above Expected. That’s great for anyone, let alone someone who’s about to replace the Vitek Vaneceks, Nico Dawses and Akira Schmids of the world. The Devils didn’t miss the playoffs solely because of their goaltending — an injury-decimated defense was another huge factor — but they came pretty close. Now, they’ve turned that weakness into a strength for a protected pick and a third-pair defenseman.

That brings us to Calgary’s end of the deal, which starts with the obligatory disclaimer: GM Craig Conroy was in a tough spot because of the no-movement clause. The market was what it was. They’re not entirely incorrect — but they’re still excuses, and they’re similar to what we heard at the trade deadline. Conroy, tough as his situation may be, has yet to win a trade, and he’s running low on tradable pieces. It helps to have Dustin Wolf in the fold as the heir apparent, and it certainly seems like a large chunk of the Flames fan base was ready to move on from Markstrom. That doesn’t make this one any less underwhelming, especially given the very real possibility that Markstrom drives that 2025 first-round pick somewhere into the 20s.

When you lose a deal in this many ways — no prime pick, no prospect, no impact lineup player, money sent the other way — the grade can’t be anything but harsh.



And yet...your view of the trade is that we "got bent over".

right-yeah-right.gif


Best case scenario was always that Markstrom refuses to play for Calgary again and will only accept a trade to NJ. That didn't happen though. I have no doubt that Calgary and Markstrom were both resigned to a split this offseason, but it was also made clear by both Friedman as well as Markstrom himself in his post-trade interview that he was willing to waive his NMC for other teams as well, which certainly put some pressure on Fitz to get a deal done or move on. At the very least it seems Ottawa and Toronto were in on him.

Was he the ideal solution? No, though I don't think there was an ideal solution out there for me. Markstrom was probably always the best solution though as the acquisition cost would be much less than Saros or Ullmark and I had reservations about handing over long-term, high AAV contracts to either of them before they even got in the crease.

Maybe we could've run it back with Kahkonen - would've at least saved some assets, though I don't think an Allen/Kahkonen duo has any shot of doing much damage in the playoffs. A somewhat rested Markstrom after having much less travel and a 1A/1B tandem with Allen? Yeah, there's at least the potential there for a long run in the playoffs. And even if they don't win it all these next two seasons, whatever playoff experience you can get in for a young core is really valuable.

The hope is that one of the young 4 goalie prospects we have in the pipeline can step up after Markstrom - at a much lower cap hit and without the risk of a long-term, high AAV contract that would've come with Saros or Ullmark.

Would be curious to hear what your ideal solution would've been though.
Did The Athletic not realize Calgary got 2 premium assets? It seems like they may not realize that.
 
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