Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part II

[JimEIV]

There's no way that signing Graves was the right thing to do.

You want to make a claim that there should have been a better fall back option to replace him than Bahl, that's something I can get behind. But you let Graves walk every time

I edited my post to say if Graves wasn't the answer signing Miller was ever dumber.

You have two children on the left side, one was never going to kill penalties,

Graves was one of top 2 PKers

And you get Miller as insurance? A RHD who doesn't kill penalties?

It's just dumb

 

[My3Sons]

At this point, it is what it is..

We can’t “wish” back players from other teams if you liked them or not. Maybe Luke can take over for Siegs or they get another top 4.

I am hoping Fitz learned his lesson last season and stays away from slow old people.

Hey I showered this week.

 

[theoptimist]

Why are people suggesting #10 is available for Markstrom? The media is running with this, but I’m confident Fitz is not entertaining this swap. Even at 50% retained, the best CGY can do is Holtz.

At this point, it is what it is..

We can’t “wish” back players from other teams if you liked them or not. Maybe Luke can take over for Siegs or they get another top 4.

I am hoping Fitz learned his lesson last season and stays away from slow old people.

It happened already. Siegenthaler should be moved. I have more faith in Bahl.

 

[devilsblood]

Graves looks more like a a poor fit with partners than poor play to me?

You sign a guy that doesn't fit with either of your top 2 RHD....that seems like a management/organizational problem not a Graves problem?

Edit: and I don't think letting Graves walk was clearly the right thing to do... actually I think it was quite dumb....

We had no one to fill in the PK hole he left and there was no way in the world Bahl was ever going to fill his shoes...Bahl did an admirable job but our left is a disaster with two rookies and Siegenthaler.

Or Miller was the dumb move in that it lacked a certain amount of foresight.... A. He couldn't kill penalties and B. We had more depth on the right side and a lot of youth on the left side.

Graves played defensive oriented minutes, with a defensive oriented partner last year in NJ. They played well together in that role.

Is it a stretch to think he could have played his defensive role with an more offensive oriented guy to his right? It's not crazy, but for whatever reason it didn't work. (perhaps the real issue from Pitt's perspective was not the signing of Graves, but of the stacking of Karlsson and Letang on the right side) Maybe the Devils fwd's ability to push the puck last year helped picked up the slack of a weak part of his game? Maybe.

Now, like Sev's, circumstances were such that we had to let them walk, but their absence did leave a hole which the young guys, like Bahl, but even a more veteran guy older guy like Sieg's, struggled to fill.

I kind of liked Miller, thought he was fine as a stop gap, but yeah, not a guy coaches trusted with more difficult minutes.

 

[JimEIV]

Hey I showered this week.

I wait until I'm told to do so now.

Haven't had a haircut in a while too.

 

[devilsblood]

It happened already. Siegenthaler should be moved. I have more faith in Bahl.

Sieg's, given his age and contract, probably has some decent trade value.

Think Schmid does as well.

Holtz has some still.

Just thowing some idea's out there.

 

[Forge]

I edited my post to say if Graves wasn't the answer signing Miller was ever dumber.

You have two children on the left side, one was never going to kill penalties,

Graves was one of top 2 PKers

And you get Miller as insurance? A RHD who doesn't kill penalties?

It's just dumb

Ultimately, I thought the Miller acquisition was fine, but I shared the PK concerns at the time, so i at least understand where you're coming from:

Considering Erik Johnson got over 3 million for a year, this is great.

However, not really a penalty kill guy. That 4th penalty kill defender is going to be interesting

The problem is that we are at a point where every dollar matters and the available guys in free agency that I would want to fill this role were actually getting more than Miller.

The difference between Erik Johnson and Miller is Mikey's contract. That's a big deal.

I am worried about the PK next year, ultimately we will see what that looks like, but I'll take giving up a 5th for Miller who can do more five on five than paying over 3 million for guys like Erik Johnson and Justin Holl.

 

[devilsblood]

I wait until I'm told to do so now.

Haven't had a haircut in a while too.

I listen to my armpits. They know.

 

[devilsblood]

We again go into next year wondering who our PKr's are. Given the performance last year, it's even more concerning going into next year.

For as much as we hated Smith, he was our best guy, by a wide stretch, and it looks like he is gone.

Marino is a given, but as noted, given performance we have lost some confidence.

Sieg's if he's back, is a given, but in the one situation you'd think he is best suited, he didn't perform well at all.

I thought Hamilton needed to adapt and pick up some of those minutes, that didn't happen.

Bahl hopefully has some upside, but wasn't very good.

Is Nemec ready? Are we ready to put that weight on him?

Luke is probably out of the mix.

It's a pretty big question mark.

 

[theoptimist]

Sieg's, given his age and contract, probably has some decent trade value.

Think Schmid does as well.

Holtz has some still.

Just thowing some idea's out there.

I'm for trading Siegs, because he has value. Unlike when Shero took over, we have value up and down our lineup. Siegs player profile just doesn't fit with our other defensemen. Essentially, I want to find a 'mean and angry' version of Siegs either thru trade or free agency, even it means it'll count more toward our cap.

 

[Forge]

I don't think we are doing much defensively this offseason. Maybe if a trade presents itself.

Elliott has said he thinks this is going to be a really, really good offseason to be a defenseman. Thinks they are going to get paid. I don't know how invested we are going to be in that

 

[Guttersniped]

Graves looks more like a a poor fit with partners than poor play to me?

You sign a guy that doesn't fit with either of your top 2 RHD....that seems like a management/organizational problem not a Graves problem?

Edit: and I don't think letting Graves walk was clearly the right thing to do... actually I think it was quite dumb....

We had no one to fill in the PK hole he left and there was no way in the world Bahl was ever going to fill his shoes...Bahl did an admirable job but our left is a disaster with two rookies and Siegenthaler.

Or Miller was the dumb move in that it lacked a certain amount of foresight.... A. He couldn't kill penalties and B. We had more depth on the right side and a lot of youth on the left side.

Those are Graves partners in Pens top four because those are the only RHD they had who could play top 2 minutes.

The Pens had no depth on defense, it the top 3 guys, then Graves and Joseph.

RHD Ruhwedel was a 34 year old 800k depth guy, who got them a 2027 4th pick at the TDL, and he was their 3rd pair backbone.

After that:
Ryan Shea (2015 4th) was a 26 year old rookie
John St Ivany (2018 4th) was 24 year old rookie
John Ludvig (2019 3rd) was a 23 year old rookie/ waiver wire pick-up

I don’t see the argument for keeping Graves. We couldn’t keep Graves, Siegenthaler and Marino.

I’m not crazy about the long term commitment to Siegenthaler either, but it happened first, and it’s a more movable deal.

You don’t sign Graves to a big longterm deal to PK, a lot of guys can PK. You don’t sign him to keep playing with Marino, because you don’t know how long Marino will be here.

The PK didn’t get that much worse last year and the success of it varied between goalie. We have to replace Brenden Smith on it now though.

Miller was signed for 1 year/ 1.85m, his being RHD didn’t make him ideal but he was an excellent depth pick-up.

 

[Guttersniped]

I don't think we are doing much defensively this offseason. Maybe if a trade presents itself.

Elliott has said he thinks this is going to be a really, really good offseason to be a defenseman. Thinks they are going to get paid. I don't know how invested we are going to be in that

If Smith isn’t in our line-up then we have to replace him because that leaves a hole.

We again go into next year wondering who our PKr's are. Given the performance last year, it's even more concerning going into next year.

For as much as we hated Smith, he was our best guy, by a wide stretch, and it looks like he is gone.

Marino is a given, but as noted, given performance we have lost some confidence.

Sieg's if he's back, is a given, but in the one situation you'd think he is best suited, he didn't perform well at all.

I thought Hamilton needed to adapt and pick up some of those minutes, that didn't happen.

Bahl hopefully has some upside, but wasn't very good.

Is Nemec ready? Are we ready to put that weight on him?

Luke is probably out of the mix.

It's a pretty big question mark.

Yes, this.

I’m guessing Nemec will PK more.

 

[Based Anime Fan]

Wait, why are we bailing on Seigenthaler? Becuase he had a bad year?

Better bail on most of the team, they also had bad years.

 

[tailfins]

I'm for trading Siegs, because he has value. Unlike when Shero took over, we have value up and down our lineup. Siegs player profile just doesn't fit with our other defensemen. Essentially, I want to find a 'mean and angry' version of Siegs either thru trade or free agency, even it means it'll count more toward our cap.

I like the idea in theory, but who is this mystery D? Unless there's an actual replacement, I don't see how we move on from Siegs.

Maybe Provorov?

I hear rumblings the BJ fans at least would be happy to move on as they've got a lot of depth at LD. My sense is that Provorov would be too toxic for the Devils, but I don't see anyone who is:
- available
- a left shot
- the right age (25 - 28), and
- "mean and angry"

Personally, I wouldn't be happy with him on the Devils, but if Jack, Nico, Dougie, etc are on board, then that would sway me.

 

[minibrodeur]

I'm confident we'll add a D this offseason, we need at least 7 and I'd be shocked if we didn't add for injury insurances. Still rooting for a Dillon signing.

 

[Triumph]

Graves played defensive oriented minutes, with a defensive oriented partner last year in NJ. They played well together in that role.

Is it a stretch to think he could have played his defensive role with an more offensive oriented guy to his right? It's not crazy, but for whatever reason it didn't work. (perhaps the real issue from Pitt's perspective was not the signing of Graves, but of the stacking of Karlsson and Letang on the right side) Maybe the Devils fwd's ability to push the puck last year helped picked up the slack of a weak part of his game? Maybe.

Now, like Sev's, circumstances were such that we had to let them walk, but their absence did leave a hole which the young guys, like Bahl, but even a more veteran guy older guy like Sieg's, struggled to fill.

I kind of liked Miller, thought he was fine as a stop gap, but yeah, not a guy coaches trusted with more difficult minutes.

Yeah, maybe the issue Pittsburgh had was the two guys going to the Hall of Fame, not the ~average defenseman who just signed an average type UFA contract.

Graves's issue is that he thinks the game like an offensive defenseman but he really isn't. He'll score more goals than your average D - 7 goals per 82 games is a lot for a defenseman who doesn't play the power play and seldom plays in overtime, that's a better ES average than e.g. Damon Severson - so that can be a nice bonus, but he's usually attempting a ton of shots. It looks like either Pittsburgh tried to make him rethink that or he just got far less opportunity, because he had his lowest shot rate and attempt rate.

 

[devilsblood]

Yeah, maybe the issue Pittsburgh had was the two guys going to the Hall of Fame, not the ~average defenseman who just signed an average type UFA contract.

Graves's issue is that he thinks the game like an offensive defenseman but he really isn't. He'll score more goals than your average D - 7 goals per 82 games is a lot for a defenseman who doesn't play the power play and seldom plays in overtime, that's a better ES average than e.g. Damon Severson - so that can be a nice bonus, but he's usually attempting a ton of shots. It looks like either Pittsburgh tried to make him rethink that or he just got far less opportunity, because he had his lowest shot rate and attempt rate.

Are those future HOFr’s in their prime? Or mid/late 30’s?

And no matter how good they are, team construction is a consideration.

But you are right Graves is an average d-man signed to an average contract. He played defensive heavy 2nd pair minutes and performed fairly well. I was arguing against criticism directed at him and you seem to agree.

 

[Forge]

If Smith isn’t in our line-up then we have to replace him because that leaves a hole.

Macdermid on D during the PK!

 

[devilsblood]

Wait, why are we bailing on Seigenthaler? Becuase he had a bad year?

Better bail on most of the team, they also had bad years.

Most of the team did not have bad years.

Goalies did and we bailed in them

We had a ton of injuries.

A bunch of young guys

Did coaches have a bad year? Maybe and they are gone.

Though in bringing together a few of my arguments above, Siegs is on a cheap contract and we know he has performed well in big minutes when paired with Hamilton. Just getting Hamilton back healthy probably improves both positions.

 

[Triumph]

Are those future HOFr’s in their prime? Or mid/late 30’s?

And no matter how good they are, team construction is a consideration.

But you are right Graves is an average d-man signed to an average contract. He played defensive heavy 2nd pair minutes and performed fairly well. I was arguing against criticism directed at him and you seem to agree.

I don't agree at all, I think Graves was bad and the general manager acknowledged that he did not live up to expectations. Contrarian GMs rarely last.

Karlsson and Letang are still performing at a high level. Graves's shot rate fell and they started using him less often as the season progressed. The reason a team signs a guy like Graves to a contract like that is that they think he can be used in a lot of different situations - if Graves cannot handle playing with either Karlsson or Letang, he's a big waste of money for Pittsburgh.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Nobody will be talking about Graves and Severson this time next year.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Wait, why are we bailing on Seigenthaler? Becuase he had a bad year?

Better bail on most of the team, they also had bad years.

No one's bailing on him. If it's a spot they can improve via a trade or UFA, why wouldn't they? The same applies to Marino but Marino is a bit harder to do.

 

[Mgd31]

I don't think that that is likely to be feasible. The question is more or less how do you get to that value. I do not want to part with 10 in order to pay the value of markrstrom. Think that's bad process, even if you can get the value to work out (and to be fair, you can).

I think it’s going to be a 2nd and a 3rd but I also may be an idiot

 

[theoptimist]

I like the idea in theory, but who is this mystery D? Unless there's an actual replacement, I don't see how we move on from Siegs.

Maybe Provorov?

I hear rumblings the BJ fans at least would be happy to move on as they've got a lot of depth at LD. My sense is that Provorov would be too toxic for the Devils, but I don't see anyone who is:
- available
- a left shot
- the right age (25 - 28), and
- "mean and angry"

Personally, I wouldn't be happy with him on the Devils, but if Jack, Nico, Dougie, etc are on board, then that would sway me.

As other posters have suggested, Brendan Dillion could be that. Would require a 3 year deal. Ideally we keep Siegs and add Dillion but I'm not sure that's cap responsible. In theory, Bahl could to take a step next season and become a reliable option on the PK and tougher 5-on-5 matchups.

The Siegenthaler-Dougie pairing worked until it didn't (they weren't great to start the season and were caught on several 2 on 1s). I noticed this pairing is the 'safe bet' people lean too but I'm not so sure I like them together anymore. I'm looking to upgrade on Siegenthaler OR add another defensemen (ie, Kulikov) to bump Bahl into #7 role.