Devils 2021 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XXII

[NJDevs26]

You have to blame Lou for where we are today but with that said, it’s just mind boggling that we’re still a bottom 5 team with the number of picks we’ve had in the past 7 years. At what point do we start improving and by improving, I’m not even suggesting making the playoffs but going from 27th, to 24th, to 20th, to eventually getting close enough to sniff the postseason.

We’ve been shopping at the bargain bin store because we had a boat load of cap space and we got what we paid for. True, we got a great deal for Palmieri but thinking that we’d hit a home run on every presence to the plate was flat out wrong.

Don’t you mean we’ve been shopping at the bargain bin store despite having more than enough cap space to bring in real improvements? People can debate the value of keeping cap space or avoiding certain contracts but there’s no question we never took full advantage of all the cap space we had (really still have) and are still paying for that. We might as well have chanced one or two potentially bad contracts three and four years ago that would have been mostly over with by now considering we’re still saving up for rainy days.

 

[Guttersniped]

Idk if I'd ever call Gardiner solid...
He's more Severson of two years ago. (or last two games) in my eyes. All the tools, lots of potential, occasional game losing heartrending mindfarts.

Gardiner was definitely hampered by back issues in Toronto and I think he might have finally had back surgery at some point more recently after holding off on that while with the Leafs. It’s similar to Murray except you taking a risking with a guy back problems who’s signed for two more years.

I don’t know that much about Gardiner’s back though, there was more in depth coverage of Murray’s back trouble for some reason. Maybe Murray was so open about his health issues because he was sensitive about being considered a disappointment after being taken 3OA.

 

[hidek91]

You have to blame Lou for where we are today but with that said, it’s just mind boggling that we’re still a bottom 5 team with the number of picks we’ve had in the past 7 years. At what point do we start improving and by improving, I’m not even suggesting making the playoffs but going from 27th, to 24th, to 20th, to eventually getting close enough to sniff the postseason.

We’ve been shopping at the bargain bin store because we had a boat load of cap space and we got what we paid for. True, we got a great deal for Palmieri but thinking that we’d hit a home run on every presence to the plate was flat out wrong.

This team is taking the same path Buffalo is currently on and that’s alarming. At some point, we have to add legit talent to the young core we currently have and if it means sacrificing a 1st round pick with a young player, so be it. We need to bring in veterans that will groom our kids, proven veterans that will establish a winning mentality and change this gong show we’re currently in. Zajac has been a true soldier for us but he doesn’t look like leadership material. Palmieri says all the right things between periods but his play is the complete opposite of what he preaches. Subban looks like a leader but his play on the ice has regressed so much that his voice doesn’t hold any weight when he’s trying to pump up the boys.

We need a better veteran presence, toughness and a balance lineup. We’re nowhere close to any of that atm and that’s scary.

We've done it in 2013, Cory Schneider is now 3rd string goalie and Bo Horvat is the captain of the Canucks. Also, Arizona has traded their #7 for Stepan and Raanta, look how it worked out (although to be fair Lias Andersson also busted). Trading 1st round pick for a veteran may end up in the veteran being worthless at the time the draftee will finish ELC. It's really mind boggling how people watched Lou turn this franchise into basement team and now they want to repeat the same strategy.

BTW. You mentioned Buffalo a team which tried to bring this "veteran presence" in Skinner and Okposo. Another proof that there are no shortcuts.

You mention Zajac, Palmieri and Subban. The reason we've got Subban and Palmieri is that Palmieri was a spare part in his former team (we've got very lucky here) and Subban was a declining player on a hefty contract. Those are the kinds of veterans that you can get if you decide to go bargain bin shopping. IMO, the winning core has to be built by draft.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

Don’t you mean we’ve been shopping at the bargain bin store despite having more than enough cap space to bring in real improvements? People can debate the value of keeping cap space or avoiding certain contracts but there’s no question we never took full advantage of all the cap space we had (really still have) and are still paying for that. We might as well have chanced one or two potentially bad contracts three and four years ago that would have been mostly over with by now considering we’re still saving up for rainy days.

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. Thanks for explaining it in a way that actually makes sense lol

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

We've done it in 2013, Cory Schneider is now 3rd string goalie and Bo Horvat is the captain of the Canucks. Also, Arizona has traded their #7 for Stepan and Raanta, look how it worked out (although to be fair Lias Andersson also busted). Trading 1st round pick for a veteran may end up in the veteran being worthless at the time the draftee will finish ELC. It's really mind boggling how people watched Lou turn this franchise into basement team and now they want to repeat the same strategy.

BTW. You mentioned Buffalo a team which tried to bring this "veteran presence" in Skinner and Okposo. Another proof that there are no shortcuts.

You mention Zajac, Palmieri and Subban. The reason we've got Subban and Palmieri is that Palmieri was a spare part in his former team (we've got very lucky here) and Subban was a declining player on a hefty contract. Those are the kinds of veterans that you can get if you decide to go bargain bin shopping. IMO, the winning core has to be built by draft.

Who’s talking about adding high priced UFA’s on bloated deals that are bound to disappoint? That’s what Buffalo did and by no means do I want to overpay for a UFA unless he’s a can’t miss game breaker... and both Skinner and Okposo aren’t anywhere near that. Your example of Schneider is just wrong cause at the time, our pipeline wasn’t as solid as it is today and we were an aging team trying to hold on the status of a contender when in reality, we were patching a broken leg with a bandaid. Phoenix tried to add a declining center cause they had no better option down the middle and to this day, that position still looks like a black hole for the Yotes. We have solid depth down the middle, so again, that comparison is pretty flawed IMO.

If we wait for our picks to pan out and be the perfect wingers we’re looking for in order to help Jack and Nico or to improve our mediocre blue line to something half decent, we’ll be wasting the prime years of both our 1st overall picks. There’s a difference between adding declining stars on the cheap and making a bold move for a youngster that will grow and help our young core.

 

[Maine Fan]

Here's a description link
First World problem

Thank you for your help. Much appreciated.

 

[hidek91]

Who’s talking about adding high priced UFA’s on bloated deals that are bound to disappoint? That’s what Buffalo did and by no means do I want to overpay for a UFA unless he’s a can’t miss game breaker... and both Skinner and Okposo aren’t anywhere near that. Your example of Schneider is just wrong cause at the time, our pipeline wasn’t as solid as it is today and we were an aging team trying to hold on the status of a contender when in reality, we were patching a broken leg with a bandaid. Phoenix tried to add a declining center cause they had no better option down the middle and to this day, that position still looks like a black hole for the Yotes. We have solid depth down the middle, so again, that comparison is pretty flawed IMO.

Yeah, I understand the philosophy behind Schneider trade but still this trade displays the effects of trading a very high pick for a veteran. It doesn't matter what is the reason of the trade, if you trade a 18 y. o. player for a 27-30 y. o. player, statistically the trade will benefit team obtaining veteran only for a very short amount of time (this is also true with Schneider example, until 2016 we were "winners" of this trade).

Regarding Stepan trade, I completely don't understand what you mean. So because ARI lacked centers it was alright to trade a premium pick, while being in the middle of the rebuild, for 2 veterans that were 27 and 28 y. o.? What has positional need to do anything we need? By the same token, you could flush our pick down the toilet, trade it for a veteran winger and justify it by saying that we had positional need. Sure, positional needs exist but biology also does and when you trade for a 27-30 y. o. veteran, in 9 out of 10 cases, you'll get the declining version of this veteran. There are lots of examples of that in the league, other than Schneider and Stepan, you also have Duchene and Karlsson.

 

[guitarguyvic]

You have every right to be skeptical but:

1) Blaming the current regime and not Lou ignores the real reasons why we are in the basement, in the first place;
2) It's better to miss the playoffs with youngsters in the lineup than with Jagr/Elias/Cammalleri/Zidlicky/Havlat/Ruutu etc.
3) The success of the rebuild is dependant on a very young pieces that are still developing, you can't expect "on ice results" instantly, especially when 3 of our first round prospects, have been drafted half a year ago;
4) Actually, I'm also willing to hold Shero accountable for:
a) trading away lots of 2nd round draft picks,
b) whiffing on McLeod pick and partially whiffing on Zacha (hot streak this season doesn't make him a good choice there).
5) Fitzgerald so far has made logical choices (incl. trades, FAs and draft picks), I didn't like Lindy Ruff's signing but I assume that coaches with the better reputation (Gallant, Laviolette, Boudreau) were aware that NJD roster is so bad that it could kill their career.

1) Two things on this. First, I’m not “blaming” the current regime. I’m simply stating that generally this organization’s track record for going on a decade now makes it perfectly reasonable to be skeptical about our future, and no one (this current regime and players included) has proven nearly enough to warrant the benefit of the doubt. Secondly, blaming Lou six years on is a pathetic look. There are expansion teams throughout the history of the league that started with nothing and improved their actual on ice product more than we have in the same time frame.
2) This statement is meaningless without context. If you don’t have prospects that turn into legit talent that will make the team better, than what difference would it make if you miss the playoffs with youngsters versus old fogies? (for example)
3) No one is expecting instant results...we’ve sucked for 8 years. Literally the on ice product is exactly as bad now as it was then.
4) I blame Shero for a lot, but I’m not even interested in playing that game anymore. I’m simply expressing my sentiments about the reality of where this org stands currently.
5) The jury is still out on Fitz I suppose, but he hasn’t done anything specific to make me confident that he will be bring the kind of leadership that will make this franchise turn the corner.

 

[hidek91]

1) Two things on this. First, I’m not “blaming” the current regime. I’m simply stating that generally this organization’s track record for going on a decade now makes it perfectly reasonable to be skeptical about our future, and no one (this current regime and players included) has proven nearly enough to warrant the benefit of the doubt. Secondly, blaming Lou six years on is a pathetic look. There are expansion teams throughout the history of the league that started with nothing and improved their actual on ice product more than we have in the same time frame.
2) This statement is meaningless without context. If you don’t have prospects that turn into legit talent that will make the team better, than what difference would it make if you miss the playoffs with youngsters versus old fogies? (for example)
3) No one is expecting instant results...we’ve sucked for 8 years. Literally the on ice product is exactly as bad now as it was then.
4) I blame Shero for a lot, but I’m not even interested in playing that game anymore. I’m simply expressing my sentiments about the reality of where this org stands currently.
5) The jury is still out on Fitz I suppose, but he hasn’t done anything specific to make me confident that he will be bring the kind of leadership that will make this franchise turn the corner.

1) I already agreed that you've right to be skeptical. Regarding Lou, I've written a few posts already how his asset management affects our current team. Not blaming Lou for the state of NJD is like not blaming Chiarelli for the state of EDM or not blaming Chayka for the state of ARI. Just because they left, doesn't mean that the effects of their management have magically disappeared.

2) I agree with that but in 2013-2015 we had no youth, now we have. I'm not saying that they should have played youth then, I'm saying that I'd rather see young players playing over core nearing 40 y. o. if the end result is similar (i. e. lack of playoffs).

3) The problem with this "sucking for 8 years" is that it misses context. Sucking in 2013 and 2014 does not matter at all because we didn't even pick a players early in the draft because of that. Later on, we've made two very mediocre picks in Zacha and McLeod, and all following first round picks are either doing well or it's too early to judge the impact. During that whole era a lot of 2nd round picks were also traded away.

4) I think that we all agree that results this season are very bad but judging organization based on the results, while ignoring the roster, prospects, recent draft picks and the value that team possesses is way too superficial.

5) Again, I agree that you have every right to be skeptical, I personally am quite satisfied with his first year as his philosophy (trust the process, rather then try to combine rebuild and competing) seems to be the most reasonable. We can already see that the effects of Shero's philosophy (half competing/half rebuild) will partially still be here (rebuild pieces e. g. Smith, Hischier, Hughes, Bratt), while his "win now" pieces (e. g. Grabner, Hall, Subban, Vatanen, Palmieri) are either gone or will be gone very shortly.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

And you’re actually surprised by this? It’s been going on since for years lol.

my guy, you just suggested we trade our best player for Patrik Laine so maybe you should stay out of the finger pointing today?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

No it’s not what I’ve been saying. It’s what you pretend I’m saying so you can summarily dismiss it without consideration.

this you?

GDT: - New Jersey Devils vs. New York Islanders @7PM on MSG: Featuring Shaun the Sheep

I’m not sure I’ve ever said this as a fan but...I’m completely disgusted, not just by this particular team but this entire organization. Buffalo Edmonton and Arizona aside, this franchise is in the next tier of league embarrassments.

Anyone who’s optimistic about this where this organization is headed needs to give their head a shake. This is pure garbage, from the very top to bottom.

GDT: - New Jersey Devils vs. New York Islanders @7PM on MSG: Featuring Shaun the Sheep

This is what we have to show for being garbage for what is close to becoming a decade??

Whoopeee I guess?

Like I said, disgusted.​

 

[RSeen]

I have no problems with bringing him back on like a one year deal, but I can't get on board with a 3 year deal. This sample is far too limited compared to his previous years, and this is why you sign guys like him to these cheap one year deals. You hope they outplay it, you get tremendous value for the contract and then you move on. There's a reason he had no market this off season. This feels like a situation where you get stuck with John Moore on your books for 3-4 years and regret it 2 months later. My expectation for Kulikov would be third pairing type guy moving forward based on prior precedent, and I'm not giving those types multi year deals. I think you can always find okay third pairing types on the market for a short term deal, and I like to have some flexibility on third pairings for prospects.

Though I suppose like anything, it all comes down to actual money. I mean, if it's the Carrick deal for 3 years rather than 2, that's whatever.

If he continues to play like he does now, I would definitely be open to signing him to a 3 year deal as long as the cap hit is reasonable. Certainly I'd like a lower term so perhaps with the pandemic we can get a 2 year term, but he has been extremely strong this year.

Sample is small, this is true, but he may be a guy where you use the remainder of the year to evaluate rather than trading for a 4th. Flexibility for younger players is a valid point, but we also do need some vets who can play.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

my guy, you just suggested we trade our best player for Patrik Laine so maybe you should stay out of the finger pointing today?

My guy, stop acting like Laine is this average player who’s 29 years of age. Nico Hischier is a good all around player but let’s not act as if he’s head and shoulders better then Laine.

Both kids are 22 years of age and one guy hasn’t had a season under 50 pts and the other hasn’t had a season over 50 pts. The Devils have been bottom feeders since Hischier got here and Laine has played with better line mates, I’ll give you that but scoring goals is the most difficult skill to have and we’d be acquiring one of the best at it to pair with our best playmaker and offensive center.

I might be mistaken but we’re having issues scoring goals, right? I mean, talk about a weird concept... adding a pure sniper to boost one of our main weaknesses.

People are too emotionally attached to our players. I couldn’t care less about moving Hischier or Hughes if it makes our team better.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

My guy, stop acting like Laine is this average player who’s 29 years of age. Nico Hischier is a good all around player but let’s not act as if he’s head and shoulders better then Laine.

Both kids are 22 years of age and one guy hasn’t had a season under 50 pts and the other hasn’t had a season over 50 pts. The Devils have been bottom feeders since Hischier got here and Laine has played with better line mates, I’ll give you that but scoring goals is the most difficult skill to have and we’d be acquiring one of the best at it.

I might be mistaken but we’re having issues scoring goals, right? I mean, talk about a weird concept... adding a pure sniper to boost one of our main weaknesses.

People are too emotionally attached to our players. I couldn’t care less about moving Hischier or Hughes if it makes our team better.

Nico literally averages 53 points per 82 games so far in his career...what are you even talking about?

Trading a young all around center for Patrik Laine is NOT what this team needs and suggesting otherwise is foolish. You get these weird attractions to other teams' players for whatever reason and its so weird.

 

[guitarguyvic]

this you?

GDT: - New Jersey Devils vs. New York Islanders @7PM on MSG: Featuring Shaun the Sheep

I’m not sure I’ve ever said this as a fan but...I’m completely disgusted, not just by this particular team but this entire organization. Buffalo Edmonton and Arizona aside, this franchise is in the next tier of league embarrassments.

Anyone who’s optimistic about this where this organization is headed needs to give their head a shake. This is pure garbage, from the very top to bottom.

GDT: - New Jersey Devils vs. New York Islanders @7PM on MSG: Featuring Shaun the Sheep

This is what we have to show for being garbage for what is close to becoming a decade??

Whoopeee I guess?

Like I said, disgusted.​

None of that translates to “I think we will be bad forever” or whatever other such hyperbolic implications you falsely take from my posts. It means exactly what it says...it’s a commentary on the current status of this franchise.

I don’t know if anything chafes me more than people who cannot argue without misrepresenting what others are saying.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

None of that translates to “I think we will be bad forever”. It means exactly what it says...it’s a commentary on the current status of this franchise.

I don’t know if anything chafes me more than people who cannot argue without misrepresenting what others are saying.

Really? This part sure does imply that:

Anyone who’s optimistic about this where this organization is headed needs to give their head a shake. This is pure garbage, from the very top to bottom.

Please do not act like you are some breath of fresh air guiding light because of your takes.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Really? This part sure does imply that:



Please do not act like you are some breath of fresh air guiding light because of your takes.

I’m not optimistic does not imply in any way shape or form that I think it will be that way forever. This is really juvenile nonsense you’re spouting. Do you have a response to the actual words I’m saying?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

what is the point? No matter what anyone says you just sh*t on it

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

Nico literally averages 53 points per 82 games so far in his career...what are you even talking about?

Trading a young all around center for Patrik Laine is NOT what this team needs and suggesting otherwise is foolish. You get these weird attractions to other teams' players for whatever reason and its so weird.

I don’t have any attachment to anyone on our team. If losing with your best player is your thing, it’s not mine. I couldn’t care less about Hischier, Hughes, Severson, etc...

I’m all about improving the team and if it means moving anyone I listed, so be it. At some point, you have to look at the overall issues of our team and if goal scoring is at the top of your list, you make a move to correct that.

 

[guitarguyvic]

what is the point? No matter what anyone says you just sh*t on it

I could say the same thing in reverse.

It’s a discussion. I don’t agree with the way a lot do you view this topic but I value knowing what the opposing argument is.

 

[MadDevil]

Laine would fill a need, but trading Nico for him just opens up another one, unless we believe Zacha can be a legit #2 center behind Hughes, which I don't.

 

[HersheyBob27]

Chip in? McLeod is playing at a 10 goal/82 game pace. I’d happily take 10 goals from our 4C as his offensive contribution as long as the rest of his game is up to what the Devils need from 4C.

You aren’t wrong

 

[Triumph]

Don’t you mean we’ve been shopping at the bargain bin store despite having more than enough cap space to bring in real improvements? People can debate the value of keeping cap space or avoiding certain contracts but there’s no question we never took full advantage of all the cap space we had (really still have) and are still paying for that. We might as well have chanced one or two potentially bad contracts three and four years ago that would have been mostly over with by now considering we’re still saving up for rainy days.

This is ignoring what would've happened in the counterfactual world if the Devils had signed Taylor Hall long-term.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I could say the same thing in reverse.

It’s a discussion. I don’t agree with the way a lot do you view this topic but I value knowing what the opposing argument is.

lol have you read this board this year? Tons of people think the way you do and never have anything positive to say....

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

Laine would fill a need, but trading Nico for him just opens up another one, unless we believe Zacha can be a legit #2 center behind Hughes, which I don't.

Unfortunately, we can’t have our cake and eat it to. Like I said, it would hurt but it’s a lot easier to grab a 2nd line 2 way center then a 1st line goal machine.

Zacha is taking big strides under Ruff and I can’t say that he doesn’t have the potential of eventually turning out as a good 2nd line center. At 23, his career is just getting started even if he’s been in the league for what, 5 years?