Devils 2019-20 Preseason/Season team discussion (news and notes)

[glenwo2]

Please stop, your level of homerism is embarrassing. Patrick Laine is on an entire different level when comparing him to Bratt. Jesper is a good player but Laine is already a star, wheater you like or not and calling him one dimensional is borderline laughable.

He's a tremendous playmaker but if your linemates can't finish, it doesn't show up on stat sheets. With that said, if you have the shot he has, you should be shooting the puck 9 times out of 10 anyways.

I was confused for a while because I thought I was on the Oilers board. Reading the past couple of pages, you'd think Jesper Bratt is the second coming of freaking Connor McDavid!

That's funny....the way you're worshipping Laine, you'd think he was the 2nd coming of Mario Lemieux or Jaromir Jagr. ( I can play this game, too. )

He is not that good an all-around player.

He can shoot the puck extremely well but that's all he can do.

He's a beast on the PP but NHL games aren't played on the PP from start to finish.

He'll cost an arm and a leg to re-sign; Bratt (and Sevs) won't.

Bratt for Laine? I’ll pay for Laine’s airline ticket.

Police would find the Jets GM tied up in a closet before that happens.

i think it should be taken into consideration that Laine is only 21 and didn't just coast into a 2nd overall pick and 40 goal season. You have to assume that someone with elite skill like that and elite size also has the ability to recognize those deficiencies and work to improve them.

we also have to take into consideration that we in all likelihood are not trading for him

Just like I think it should be taken into consideration that Bratt is ALSO "only 21" and didn't just coast into a Top-6 role right off the bat (he earned his way there, coming in as a 6th round pick) and a very good rookie season.

What Bratt has as far as Playmaking skills and vision (and instinct)?

That cannot be taught.

You either have the ability or you don't.

Bratt does (and has proven it) while Laine doesn't (and has struggled whenever his shot isn't finding the back of the net).

Severson is progressing in which area? He did rack up good #’s offensively but he’s still atrocious in his own zone. Larsson was the opposite, solid defensive stats but atrocious offensively. If Severson isn’t giving us offense, what else is he doing?

Adding Bratt is to sweeten the deal because we’d be getting the younger player with elite potential when comparing Severson and Laine.

Anyways, this won’t happen, unfortunately for us. I was just intrigued to see if such a deal would entice our fanbase but it doesn’t seem to be the case.

Let's forget the Bratt / Laine "battle" for a sec here :

You try bringing up a Laine for Bratt/Severson on the Main Board and you'd be laughed out of the forum, courtesy of the Jets fans.

"He's a very solid passer". According to who? It's difficult to find anyone that will tell you that Laine is anything but terrible at anything but shooting. Here's a blurb from an analysis of unsigned RFA published by The Athletic.

Patrik Laine
Projected Contract: $7.2M x 7 years

This contract is going to be a problem. Laine was the second overall pick in 2016 and already has 110 goals in 237 games for his NHL career, the sixth most of any player in the league over the last three seasons. He’s the NHL’s premier sharp-shooter and scoring goals earns the big bucks in this league.
The issue then is the fact that Laine doesn’t really do anything else and his most recent season is far from inspiring. He was good in 2017-18 with 44 goals and 70 points, but slowed down to just 30 goals and 20 assists in 2018-19 while looking like one of the league’s weakest defensive players. That’s more admissible when he’s scoring at an elite rate, but there’s no guarantee he gets back to that level. He doesn’t drive play on offence either and also isn’t much of a playmaker compared to other elite offensive stars.

By the numbers: Evaluating the stacked crop of restricted...

Sorry, I know it's a subscription site, but I don't know where else to find this kind of player analysis.

This is not an issue of "giving props to a player from another team", if we were talking about Marner or Rantanen I would be singing a very different tune. Laine scares me because he IS a one dimensional player, and even that one dimension wasn't good last year.

The Athletic nailed it. Maybe I should subscribe since they seem to know what they're talking about....

This wasn't Stafford's fault. Certain player simply have the jaw for the puck around the net.

Well....

what other dimensions do people want from laine? does nobody understand the concept of putting him with a defensively responsible, playmaking center and watching him fill the net? if only we had a defensively responsible, playmaking center. maybe a swiss one? oh well.

i actually agree with @Taylor Hall (for once)...the homerism is off the charts. i thought nico vs pettersson was bad, now we’re seriously arguing bratt over laine?

if you want to say laine’s next contract makes getting him prohibitive, fine. you’re still wrong, but fine. but talent-wise? results-wise? it’s not really close. again, apply the test of going to the main boards and posting a proposal of bratt for laine and a draft pick (since bratt is worth more, having all those dimensions) and see how well that’s received.

Don't kid yourself.

The Jets fans will laugh their asses off.

And so will their GM if Shero was taken over by someone here (like a bodysnatcher or something) and tried making that deal thinking they'd give up Laine for Bratt and Severson.

In fact, I guarantee you that if Nico's name is not mentioned (for starters) in a deal for Laine, the Jets GM won't even say goodbye.

He'd hang up the phone the moment Bratt and Sevs (but no Nico) is mentioned.

 

[Nocashstyle]

According to their Instagram stories, Boqvist and Smith were at the US open together. I’d imagine they only met each other at the Devils prospect camps or something...definitely can’t be a bad thing that the Devils two best prospects (outside of Hughes) seem like they’re already buds.

 

[MadDevil]

I would be flipping out in the negative. We get hosed in that deal.

Giving up two really good players on top of having to pay Laine?

He is an elite goal scorer, but the rest of his game is not good.

Do his deficiencies outweigh his elite goal scoring ability? How many elite goal scorers are also really good playmakers or without deficiencies of some sort? I think we probably have enough forwards that are good at other things to have one elite goal scorer with deficiencies on the roster.

And I'm not saying I think we should or will trade for him, but I think some people are undervaluing what an elite goal scorer costs in this league.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

In a vacuum, I'd be happy to have a sniper like Laine if the team were confident that last year was an outlier and not a sign of things to come.

But the contract does not jibe with what we're building.

Or are you looking at Laine as a Hall replacement? Because what are you paying, like $22M for Laine, Hall, Hischier next year? That leaves like $10M for 5 roster players including likely parting with two top 6 D-men in Greene and Vatanen; notwithstanding parting with one of the best cost-controlled D-men in Severson.

And if Blackwood continues to emerge as a solid option in goal, how much of that $10M does he command?

Your defense is, what, Subban, Smith, Butcher, then...?

Granted, a lot comes off the books in the following year, but our needs are considerably greater on the blue line than on the wing. It's just a balance of assets thing.

You make valid points, something that doesn’t happen often by the usual suspects who just like to throw one liners without any arguments to back their arrogant response.

The reason why I’d like to acquire Laine is mainly because I don’t think Hall will resign with us. I have no inside information but I think he’ll try and test the market, especially if he’s able to handpick his destination. Being on bottom feeding teams his entire career must be insufferable for a competitor like him and now he has the chance of going where he wants instead of trying to revive another rebuild here in NJ. If there’s something we learned this offseason is that a contending team can sign a premier UFA if they want to and that’s exactly what Nashville did with Duchene.

Secondly, Laine would fit our timeline much better then Hall IMO, who’s better years would be behind him when our key youngsters are about to hit their prime (Hischier, Hughes, Smith, Boqvist, etc). True, we need a mix of veterans and youngsters but having Hall at 10M$ per on his down years isn’t a smart investment when looking at the makeup of our core down the road. I might be wrong about Hall, who knows, but that’s my opinion on the matter. I keep seeing the same argument when it comes to resigning Vatanen (injuries) but when talking about Hall, that same argument seems to fly right out the window.

As for our salary cap, I don’t see why we would resign Andy Greene since we have several options that can do the job he’s currently doing, at a fraction of the price he’s making today. I’d take part of his 5M$ and give Vatanen the raise he’ll demand, which shouldn’t be more then 2M$. As for Simmonds, that’s another 5M$ off our books if we decide to let him walk and give someone like Boqvist a chance to crack our lineup next year. They’re not at all the same type of players but he’s a prospect that will definitely push for a spot next summer.

It just seems that Shero has played his cards right and that we always have a cost controlled youngster to step in and fill the void left by a "high paid" veteran who’s on the decline, that will need a new deal around age 35/36. Don’t get me wrong, we do need players like that but they better take a drastic pay cut if they want to resign with us. The last thing we need is for bottom #6 forwards or 3rd pairing dmen to be making top #6/top pairing money.

With that said, that’s my explanation on how I see things. Several might disagree but that’s ok, we can’t all have the same POV.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Put me in the camp that would take Severson over Vatanen going forward when you consider age/injury history/contract status.

But also put me in the camp that if we had a 7 game series to play next week, give me Vatanen all day long.

Present: Vatanen>Severson
Future: Severson>Vatanen

 

[Stephen Gionta]

You make valid points, something that doesn’t happen often by the usual suspects who just like to throw one liners without any arguments to back their arrogant response.

The reason why I’d like to acquire Laine is mainly because I don’t think Hall will resign with us. I have no inside information but I think he’ll try and test the market, especially if he’s able to handpick his destination. Being on bottom feeding teams his entire career must be insufferable for a competitor like him and now he has the chance of going where he wants instead of trying to revive another rebuild here in NJ. If there’s something we learned this offseason is that a contending team can sign a premier UFA if they want to and that’s exactly what Nashville did with Duchene.

Secondly, Laine would fit our timeline much better then Hall IMO, who’s better years would be behind him when our key youngsters are about to hit their prime (Hischier, Hughes, Smith, Boqvist, etc). True, we need a mix of veterans and youngsters but having Hall at 10M$ per on his down years isn’t a smart investment when looking at the makeup of our core down the road. I might be wrong about Hall, who knows, but that’s my opinion on the matter. I keep seeing the same argument when it comes to resigning Vatanen (injuries) but when talking about Hall, that same argument seems to fly right out the window.

As for our salary cap, I don’t see why we would resign Andy Greene since we have several options that can do the job he’s currently doing, at a fraction of the price he’s making today. I’d take part of his 5M$ and give Vatanen the raise he’ll demand, which shouldn’t be more then 2M$. As for Simmonds, that’s another 5M$ off our books if we decide to let him walk and give someone like Boqvist a chance to crack our lineup next year. They’re not at all the same type of players but he’s a prospect that will definitely push for a spot next summer.

It just seems that Shero has played his cards right and that we always have a cost controlled youngster to step in and fill the void left by a "high paid" veteran who’s on the decline, that will need a new deal around age 35/36. Don’t get me wrong, we do need players like that but they better take a drastic pay cut if they want to resign with us. The last thing we need is for bottom #6 forwards or 3rd pairing dmen to be making top #6/top pairing money.

With that said, that’s my explanation on how I see things. Several might disagree but that’s ok, we can’t all have the same POV.

Great post. I agree with much of your Laine vs Hall statements, though I disagree about Greene and Boqvist.

I think Greene will be back for the 2020-21 season unless he has an incredibly horrible season, which I don't foresee. Though I don't think he'll come back as the captain.

And believe you're wrong about Boqvist. He's going to make the team this year. He's a great player.

 

[glenwo2]

You make valid points, something that doesn’t happen often by the usual suspects who just like to throw one liners without any arguments to back their arrogant response.

The so-called "usual suspects" DO back up their arguments.

ZBC, EmperorEddy, and others actually.

They only seem "arrogant" to you because they have a different viewpoint (a valid one) from your own.

And they're far from one liners.



Look, it's no secret I'm biased 'cause I highly value Bratt as a player but others here aren't biased.

They are objective and see things as they really are :

And that is that Laine is too one-dimensional, has struggled, is not a good passer, and is a polarizing(something that this team should not have to deal with) player.

The reason why I’d like to acquire Laine is mainly because I don’t think Hall will resign with us. I have no inside information but I think he’ll try and test the market, especially if he’s able to handpick his destination. Being on bottom feeding teams his entire career must be insufferable for a competitor like him and now he has the chance of going where he wants instead of trying to revive another rebuild here in NJ. If there’s something we learned this offseason is that a contending team can sign a premier UFA if they want to and that’s exactly what Nashville did with Duchene.

>>> And you seriously believed the Jets would give up Laine for just Bratt and Severson?

Here's an idea :

Why not just trade Hall to the Jets for Laine without giving up Bratt/Sevs then?

That actually makes much more sense than the belief that the Jets GM would be as stupid as to pull a Chiarelli-type move.

(Of course all of this discussion will be a moot point once Hall re-signs...'cause he WILL Re-sign)

 

[BenedictGomez]

Everytime Severson gets put on the top pair for a good stretch, he gets exposed really bad.

I don't care if he produced more points because that was never what people complained about, his ability to defend is mediocre.

I'm not even confident Damon Severson will be in the NHL after his current contract ends. I dont think his value will ever be higher than it is right now, and I'd trade him were I GM.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

The so-called "usual suspects" DO back up their arguments.

ZBC, EmperorEddy, and others actually.

They only seem "arrogant" to you because they have a different viewpoint (a valid one) from your own.

And they're far from one liners.



Look, it's no secret I'm biased 'cause I highly value Bratt as a player but others here aren't biased.

They are objective and see things as they really are :

And that is that Laine is too one-dimensional, has struggled, is not a good passer, and is a polarizing(something that this team should not have to deal with) player.




>>> And you seriously believed the Jets would give up Laine for just Bratt and Severson?

Here's an idea :

Why not just trade Hall to the Jets for Laine without giving up Bratt/Sevs then?

That actually makes much more sense than the belief that the Jets GM would be as stupid as to pull a Chiarelli-type move.

(Of course all of this discussion will be a moot point once Hall re-signs...'cause he WILL Re-sign)

Backing up an argument with stats that fit your agenda, based on a single season, doesn’t do much for me, sorry. Being a homer isn’t any better and thinking that our players are better then they really are isn’t helping the discussion.

For once, you and I can agree that Winnipeg wouldn’t be all that thrilled with the package I came up with because the better player would be leaving their team for ours.

What bothers me is that you think that a 40 goal scorer who isn’t racking up assists and isn’t Jay Pandolfo away from the puck is somewhat of a useless player. You also seem to think that one "bad" season, where he did score 30 goals (Btw, Hall did it once in 9 years and it was his MVP season, so it kind of shows you it’s not an easy thing to accomplish) is some kind of trend setter for whatever reason. The guy is 21 and he’s the 3rd best goal scorer in the entire league since joining the NHL.

If Winnipeg were to consider Hall for Laine, I’d be thrilled if Shero were to pull such a trade and I’ve said why in my previous post but the Jets are looking to resign Connor as well and Hall would command more cash then Laine IMO, so that wouldn’t make a lot of sense on their part, hence the Bratt + Severson offer.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Do his deficiencies outweigh his elite goal scoring ability? How many elite goal scorers are also really good playmakers or without deficiencies of some sort? I think we probably have enough forwards that are good at other things to have one elite goal scorer with deficiencies on the roster.

And I'm not saying I think we should or will trade for him, but I think some people are undervaluing what an elite goal scorer costs in this league.

It’s an overvalued skill. Especially when you aren’t getting anything else.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

It’s an overvalued skill. Especially when you aren’t getting anything else.

Scoring goals is an overvalued skill, seriously? I got to say, that's the first time I've heard anyone say that.

 

[Hisch13r]

Hall for Laine would be a pretty bad move. Hall from 28-34 will be a more valuable piece than Laine from 21-27. Hall is one of the best 5v5 players in the world while Laine's 5v5 impact the last 2 years hasn't been that good

 

[billingtons ghost]

You make valid points, something that doesn’t happen often by the usual suspects who just like to throw one liners without any arguments to back their arrogant response.

The reason why I’d like to acquire Laine is mainly because I don’t think Hall will resign with us. I have no inside information but I think he’ll try and test the market, especially if he’s able to handpick his destination. Being on bottom feeding teams his entire career must be insufferable for a competitor like him and now he has the chance of going where he wants instead of trying to revive another rebuild here in NJ. If there’s something we learned this offseason is that a contending team can sign a premier UFA if they want to and that’s exactly what Nashville did with Duchene.

Secondly, Laine would fit our timeline much better then Hall IMO, who’s better years would be behind him when our key youngsters are about to hit their prime (Hischier, Hughes, Smith, Boqvist, etc). True, we need a mix of veterans and youngsters but having Hall at 10M$ per on his down years isn’t a smart investment when looking at the makeup of our core down the road. I might be wrong about Hall, who knows, but that’s my opinion on the matter. I keep seeing the same argument when it comes to resigning Vatanen (injuries) but when talking about Hall, that same argument seems to fly right out the window.

As for our salary cap, I don’t see why we would resign Andy Greene since we have several options that can do the job he’s currently doing, at a fraction of the price he’s making today. I’d take part of his 5M$ and give Vatanen the raise he’ll demand, which shouldn’t be more then 2M$. As for Simmonds, that’s another 5M$ off our books if we decide to let him walk and give someone like Boqvist a chance to crack our lineup next year. They’re not at all the same type of players but he’s a prospect that will definitely push for a spot next summer.

It just seems that Shero has played his cards right and that we always have a cost controlled youngster to step in and fill the void left by a "high paid" veteran who’s on the decline, that will need a new deal around age 35/36. Don’t get me wrong, we do need players like that but they better take a drastic pay cut if they want to resign with us. The last thing we need is for bottom #6 forwards or 3rd pairing dmen to be making top #6/top pairing money.

With that said, that’s my explanation on how I see things. Several might disagree but that’s ok, we can’t all have the same POV.

I don't agree with your overall take on this - but I think this is an excellent post.

The most salient point in the above to me is Laine's age, and the potential for losing Hall. The mantra that works again and again is 'win before your big guys get paid'.

You can see what happens when you have to pay Kane and Toews, or how difficult it is to keep Sid, Malkin and anyone else on the road to the cup year after year... or even what a challenge the cap is to the Edmonton Oilers, now that McDavid and Drai have their cash.

I think we have a terrific chance to win some cups here, and the real worry is: can we do it with a long-term contract for Hall upon the books, if all of the other kids like MB29, Sevs, Bratt, Nico and Hughes are maybe two-to-five years away from their truly peak seasons. I love Hall, and think he's better than Laine, but if you can add a 21 year old kid to the mix without breaking the bank, and have your other guys somewhat cost-controlled - you improve your odds at winning the cup.

 

[billingtons ghost]

It’s an overvalued skill. Especially when you aren’t getting anything else.

See Hull, Brett... Gartner, Mike... Selanne, Teemu... Bossy, Mike...

 

[BurntToast]

Health and Age: Severson.

 

[Ripshot 43]

Feels good to get an Auto renewal from
Nhl.tv for the upcoming season!

 

[Emperoreddy]

This is less to do about homerism and more to do with grass is always greener/shiny toy stuff.

 

[MartyOwns]

It’s an overvalued skill. Especially when you aren’t getting anything else.

...scoring goals, you mean?

 

[Devils731]

...scoring goals, you mean?

I think what people are going for is that you pay almost the same amount for a well rounded 30 goal scorer as you do for a one dimensional 30 goal scorer.

The 30 goals are great and very valuable but those one dimensional guys can be bad contract value against the cap when compared to the more rounded 30 goal scorer that isn’t paid much more. So if you’re cap concerned long term you may want to avoid the one dimensional guys because of the bad cap value, even the goals themselves are very valuable on a raw basis.

 

[MartyOwns]

I think what people are going for is that you pay almost the same amount for a well rounded 30 goal scorer as you do for a one dimensional 30 goal scorer.

The 30 goals are great and very valuable but those one dimensional guys can be bad contract value against the cap when compared to the more rounded 30 goal scorer that isn’t paid much more. So if you’re cap concerned long term you may want to avoid the one dimensional guys because of the bad cap value, even the goals themselves are very valuable on a raw basis.

makes sense, but a few things. 1) 30 goals is the least amount he’s had in a season, so to call him a 30 goal scorer is disingenuous. 2) in terms of cap, he’ll make slightly more than hall earns right now. getting laine would absolutely make hall expendable, and by trading him we could get a blue chip defenseman and a little cap relief. 3) the dimensional stuff is killing me. again, we’re not building a team in a vacuum, there are other multi-dimensional players you could pair laine with, such as nico. we don’t need a top 6 that’s full of mensa members, we need a balanced group where each guy is providing a specific skill set

 

[Call Me Al]

agreed - one thing this team lacks is a bonafide top tier goal scorer. and when you have the level of playmaking talent that we have already, it would just make the team that much more dangerous.

i’m also still in disbelief that everyone is basically writing off a 21 year olds ability to improve in other areas of the game

 

[Call Me Al]

both hall and kovalchuk improved their defensive play when they arrived on the devils in their mid to late 20s

 

[MadDevil]

Laine is #6 in the league in terms of goals scored over the last 3 seasons. When a player is that good at an "overvalued" ability like that I'm willing to live with some deficiencies in other areas of his game. Sure, I'd love an elite goal scorer who is also a good playmaker, drives play 5v5, and is good defensively, but good luck finding or acquiring that player.

 

[glenwo2]

Is the new season here yet?

There's nothing more to add to the Laine debate as everyone here is pretty much established their positions on that matter.

Let's get this season underway so we can have Devils hockey to talk about.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

Laine is #6 in the league in terms of goals scored over the last 3 seasons. When a player is that good at an "overvalued" ability like that I'm willing to live with some deficiencies in other areas of his game. Sure, I'd love an elite goal scorer who is also a good playmaker, drives play 5v5, and is good defensively, but good luck finding or acquiring that player.

Agree with the sentiment, but what if Laine's cost is the same as the cost of the ideal player you described, like it likely will be?