Proposal: Detroit is changing players?

[Octopus]

Detroit got there by excellent drafting, not fortune. Fortune has screwed them several times.

... That being said, there's no indication fortune will stop screwing them. And they've continued to overcome it with excellent drafting. Why Holland ever moved away from just trusting Hakan Andersson is beyond me.

I think there is way too much talk about the Wings missing out on the number 1 pick in the past years. You can still get great players in 5-10 range so it all comes down to predicting what a player will turn into. What is their upside...what weaknesses can be improved through coaching and so on. Larkin was drafted in the middle of the 1st and Bert in the second and look how good they are. The year Rasmussen was drafted, it looks like the best from that year is Suzuki who was drafted mid round round. BTW, Shane Wright isn't shooting out the lights in Kingston so far this year.

 

[The Real Pastafarian]

Interesting premise, if you see you're gonna fall short by going all out compete with the roster, hunker down with a few deals that add assets so you are closer to realistically going past minimal compete to actual challenge level of play. A byproduct of these deals is increased possibility of getting a 1OA dif maker.

------------
The Rangers should otherwise be out of this, the exception below notwithstanding.

Of course, we could use Larkin, but while anyone is theoretically available if too much is put on the table, as a practical matter at this pt I think Larkin stays.

Otherwise while DET has some nice baubles, generally do not want to pay a premium for swapping Ranger youth for RedWiug youth.

However, we have to tread lightly salary cap wise until Trouba's nmc expires 2 more seasons from now, unless he waives earlier.
Trouba's primary concern is making his wife happy which is why, to advance her career, he manipulated coming to NYR.
Howev, given she is further along her career path, I suspect a work around may be possible. While she was underqualified earlier, some 3 years hence if Dolan were to cut a 1m tax deduction to ________ medical institution with the provision that Mrs Trouba gets a solid salary etc in her desired field of studies, that could be a functional bypass. Doubtless, DET surely has such a facility or two or three whch qualify. Given this is the midwest, we are close enough for a satellite office to the world famous Mayo Clinic.
Of course, Jacob has to also be a happy camper.

Before going to Rangers, he did say for some reason that DET was ....
[I forget exactly; acceptable alternate; another place he'd consider; something to that effect].
So for all of the above let's assume Trouba to DET is conditionally doable.

Trouba is playing well earning all of the top market 8m per he signed for. Howev, NY now has elc Schneider in the wings and swapping out that level of salary for roster flexibility is desirable if elc or draft can be returned.

Given this you would not think Seider. Nils L is here. Fox then add Nils and Schneid and that is your startig 3.
Howev, if I am overpaying I have to alleviate risk by getting the asset I want in return, or no deal.
Seider is the one who has least risk and high enuf talent to justify the offer.
Fortunately, Nils can play either side, so there is ample room to work him into the lineup on both sides.

the deal
9OA Krav + Trouba + LD Jones [who can play either side and is well regarded but as Fox lite is gonna get traded eventually] + Strome retained + Geo + Hajek + two 2022 4ths [NYR + WPG]

for

Seider + DET 2022 3rd

valuation:
Krav has not had a fair shot, which explains his stunt. Unless until he is here and fails here, he holds 9OA pedigree. This is a guy who has obvious talent, who set KHL record(s), and bonus, has possible pivot potential. We don't now know who the best player in this deal will be, but Krav's actual ability should not be unduly discounted by the politics of the situation stupidly brought about by mgmt.
Seider is 6OA pedigree.
Trouba is solid quality RD replacement now.
Krav won't get here til last month of the season and by then you can create a roster spot for him.

Jones is LD plays either side. He is elc give him mins in the A while team tanks this year for pick.

Strome is your other 23 man roster guy. He is worth early 2nd now and a 1st retained. If DET retains further his value and the return is even more enhanced. He will want 6 or so min at least 4-5 yrs, but I could see Wings flipping him to TOR for 1st + Kerfoot +.
Leafs could get fav son to go team friendly in the 5-5.25 range 4-5 yrs.
Kerfoot is a stopgap who might improve further or could be flipped.

Hajek if a favor.
Famously NY has no room and if waived he is likely taken. This is a kid who for 4 games was all world, then injured his shoulder, which you woud think should not be THAT big a deal. After rehab he is mismanaged. He has adequate size and ability, but has lost ability to assess plays quickly on a regular basis. When he does that he is better than serviceable, but too often he does not. A change into a new system will be good for the kid, can''t hurt and is a throw in freebie.

Geo is a freebie throw in. He has declined, but arguably it is because he gets rusty when he is not playing regular. To drop an old school name, not everybody is/can be Gilles Villemure, a guy who can do a coupla weeks straight if Giacomin is out, or conversely can play only 2-3 games in an entire month. And look like an All Star either way. Some guys need work to stay sharp. Geo at best is that.
So, play him regular, get something for Greiss, and if he sucks that helps w/draft position and if he returns to good form w/regular work, he can also be flipped as a rental.

given the above, 2 4s for a 3rd is not unreasonable.


counter-evaluation?

I'm not sure what the Red Wings would do with all of these players. Start a new franchise in Lansing, maybe, and barnstorm against high school teams.

Although I am interested in Zac Jones. Mildly interested -- because from what I've seen he might very well be nothing more than a young Brendan Smith. And we've each already had one of those, and know what that's like. And I agree with the OP, that the Wings should sell this year instead of hoping to scramble into the last wild card spot just to get bounced in the first round.

But there's no deal you could realistically put together that would make us give up Seider or Raymond.

What about Filip Hronek? A hard-nosed smart cost-controlled right-handed two-way defenseman who would be a solid middle-pairing guy even on a great team.

How about Jones for Hronek straight up?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The OP postulated that totality of factors,
incl considering position for top draft pick
could be worth strategic surrender of valued assets now if long term profit could justify

This IS IS IS IS
A HUGE WIN
for Wings.

A solid add to RD
a high prospect for LD who can shift over
and a 9OA F who can potentially be not just top W but a C.

plus other little benes

======
you won't admit this b'c your whole argument is
Seider is 6OA
Krav is a bust
everything else is irrelevant

I'm calling you out.
What I said is true, up to this point.
Krav is NOT a bust he did not get legit shot w/decent talent like that effin ingrate Lias Andersson did -- he actually played meaningful mins w/kreider, Zib, Panarin -- Krav on 4th line did not.

And unless/until K gets his chance and fails, he is NOT a bust
and his value will command at 9OA-ish.

It's not a huge win for Detroit. Like, at all.

One, once you get above five pieces for one, several of which have NHL contracts, adding more of them actually reduces the value of the package because you have to move around contracts to even take them on. Most of the time, this is why teams trade some player of no real worth instead of just picking up a guy on waivers... so they don't have to find an extra contract space.

Also, Bern, think about what it would have cost for a team to acquire Fox during his rookie season. I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't accept a package centered around Zadina from Detroit.

 

[bernmeister]

You just don’t move players like Seider.

I get the idea that IF he is a superstar, you tend to keep those, b'c, supply and demand, those are hard to acquire.
And it is a prudent bet he may be a superstar.

Let's remember OP premise, paraphrased, is everybody on the table, with highest level blue chips commanding most overpayment.

That was done with my offer.

Whether or not that is best strategy requires comparison with alternate scenarios.
Presumably OP is thinking what 2 or 3 moves could acclerate Wings to best roster that is sufficiently deep.

Let's all keep mutual respect for all views attempting to answer that how to.

 

[Neiler]

I would propose Brannstrom for Veleno, assuming Ottawa is going to continue to not put him in the lineup for good. He'd be an interesting fit for Detroit I think.

Off topic, I'd also like to say it is really disappointing to see so many people making and liking comments about the OP being hard to understand. I've been a member of these forums for a very long time and seeing people poke fun at someone who isn't speaking perfect english speaks to who each of you are as people. It really wasn't that hard to figure out. These forums should be inclusive for all hockey fans whether their first language is english or not. Be better.

 

[dekelikekocur]

I get the idea that IF he is a superstar, you tend to keep those, b'c, supply and demand, those are hard to acquire.
And it is a prudent bet he may be a superstar.

Let's remember OP premise, paraphrased, is everybody on the table, with highest level blue chips commanding most overpayment.

That was done with my offer.

Whether or not that is best strategy requires comparison with alternate scenarios.
Presumably OP is thinking what 2 or 3 moves could acclerate Wings to best roster that is sufficiently deep.

Let's all keep mutual respect for all views attempting to answer that how to.

I didn't see Fox for Seider in your original post, that's the type of over payment it would take. Not NY scraps and wannabes and unproven/can't crack the nhl busts. At this point, Krav hasn't proven anything other than he isn't fit to play in the NHL.

 

[bernmeister]

I'm not sure what the Red Wings would do with all of these players. Start a new franchise in Lansing, maybe, and barnstorm against high school teams.

Although I am interested in Zac Jones. Mildly interested -- because from what I've seen he might very well be nothing more than a young Brendan Smith. And we've each already had one of those, and know what that's like. And I agree with the OP, that the Wings should sell this year instead of hoping to scramble into the last wild card spot just to get bounced in the first round.

But there's no deal you could realistically put together that would make us give up Seider or Raymond.

What about Filip Hronek? A hard-nosed smart cost-controlled right-handed two-way defenseman who would be a solid middle-pairing guy even on a great team.

How about Jones for Hronek straight up?

1. If you prefer to keep Seider fine, pls note my above posts re: responding to/exploring OP premise.

2. Just to be clear, you would be instantly adding 2 guys [Trouba, Strome] and losing one [Seider] so you are 23 man roster compliant. Strome already retained by ny is worth a 1st, and you go there. At that pt you can recall Jones from the A.
Krav gets here end of season, and there will be no prob to add him then.

It is not like there are too many bodies for you to absorb.

3. Jones like Smith
I don't see that.
Jones is WAY WAY WAY more intelligent w/better hockey sense than Smith ever had.
He is also a much better skater and passer.
Whether he adds/how much he adds any extra muscle, we can see to what extent he may flex it.

4. Jones for Hronek
I like Hronek, but I don't need another RD
we have Fox, Nils L, and Trouba to be replaced by Schneider.

we also have sufficient LD

what you overlooked is my premise in part of moving Trouba and his 8m per.
After being overpaid by at least 1.5 per he is now earning the full amount.
But we could not know when we signed him that in addition to Panarin, we'd have huge adds for Zib and Fox.
So we need to move him so we can open the door for Schneid


5. Jones for
- Am open to discussing acceptable futures for Jones w/w'o Trouba
Want fair value for Jones and fair value minus discount for JT.
If Trouba in the picture, we can include the more affordable Hronek, who we can then flip, the other way.


good chatting w/ya.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I get the idea that IF he is a superstar, you tend to keep those, b'c, supply and demand, those are hard to acquire.
And it is a prudent bet he may be a superstar.

Let's remember OP premise, paraphrased, is everybody on the table, with highest level blue chips commanding most overpayment.

That was done with my offer.

Whether or not that is best strategy requires comparison with alternate scenarios.
Presumably OP is thinking what 2 or 3 moves could acclerate Wings to best roster that is sufficiently deep.

Let's all keep mutual respect for all views attempting to answer that how to.

That's not an overpayment from New York though in any way.

From your roster, you're trading a pending UFA, a defenseman making a couple million too much a year forever, and a backup goalie.
From your system, you're trading a malcontent who the team allowed to seek a trade to anywhere who they've loaned to the KHL, an all-offensive AHL defenseman who is probably more Brendan Smith than Adam Fox, and another defenseman who I'm not even sure what he is at this point.
From your draft pick pool, two fourths for a 3rd essentially.

And for this you want a guy who's got 14 points in 22 games while playing on the top pairing as a rookie.

E: Most overpayment means... you're not trading for this guy unless it absolutely kills your team. Like we have no reason to give him to you or anyone, so if you want him, you need to make it so we can't turn it down.

Nobody in here that says Fox for Seider is going to actually think you'd trade Adam Fox for Moritz Seider... but that's the type of value I'd need if I'm moving Seider. I don't want your myriad packages of assets and your bullshit justifications why they're not stupid deals.

The guys in Mammoth's top grouping should be called functionally untouchable. The only assets/group of assets I'd accept for dealing any of those players (Larkin, Raymond, Seider) are trade offers that would never be made by the other team. Like for Larkin, if Edmonton wants to give me Draisaitl, they can have Larkin. They won't offer that, so Larkin is untouchable to them.

We're ascending without making dumb trades.

 

[CanadienShark]

Whoah! Way over my head! I couldn't understand a word of that.

We unilingual North Americans are so intellectually challenged in a multi-lingual World!

You didn't catch the word "prospect" in there?

 

[AD1066]

Giving up a potential franchise defenseman for a winger with 4 career points and attitude problems, plus some other warm bodies, is a "huge win" for the Wings and an "overpayment" on the part of NYR. Thanks for the laugh this morning.

 

[deca guard]

The same reason they traded Mantha last year and the same reason the Canucks would be wise to flip Miller. The Wings should be cashing in on the play of Tyler Bertuzzi this year. He's 26 now and in another year and he'll be a UFA. What are the odds his prime years fall in like with Detroit's competitive years?

They should be willing to listen on anyone not named Larkin, Raymond, Seider or Cossa.

tuzzi is a great leader by example . a player you want setting the tone for your new wave of prospects coming up . a 100% commited and competitive rink rat thats working hard all 200' and 60 minutes , never takes a shift off and is always making very smart plays . that competitiveness and very high hockey iq makes him too important to the establishment of detroits new culture for him to be moved ! larkins a great captain and tuzzi's his great partner reinforcing larkins lead... nhl is the ultimate team sport , in the nhl universe personalities of teammates and their game styles is real important and have to mesh together for a team to prevail . and in tyler and dylan detroit has found a perfect duo , its like when howe and lindsay , or yzerman and shanny happened . now marshal dylans ' gunsmoke line ' is happening

 

[bernmeister]

It's not a huge win for Detroit. Like, at all.

One, once you get above five pieces for one, several of which have NHL contracts, adding more of them actually reduces the value of the package because you have to move around contracts to even take them on. Most of the time, this is why teams trade some player of no real worth instead of just picking up a guy on waivers... so they don't have to find an extra contract space.

Also, Bern, think about what it would have cost for a team to acquire Fox during his rookie season. I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't accept a package centered around Zadina from Detroit.

bold,
I explained Krav, Jones, retained Strome and Trouba
these are the core pieces
Strome is transitional, goes for a 1st unless you prefer to keep and he goes there.
Krav you make room for at end of the yr.
Jones once you are ready to promote, he can max mins in the A short term.

you really do not have a prob
other min pieces Hajek, etc, who is that denying space for IF they win a spot vs who is there already?

underline:
If Fox were not clearly married to NYR friom sq1, then in theory like every other asset, enuf can be put on the table for him.
But since that was always clear, your query is moot.

 

[bernmeister]

I didn't see Fox for Seider in your original post, that's the type of over payment it would take. Not NY scraps and wannabes and unproven/can't crack the nhl busts. At this point, Krav hasn't proven anything other than he isn't fit to play in the NHL.

Your assessment is objectively erroneous x 2.
All but the two least pieces tendered are quality.
And krav is not a bust.
You have it butt backwards.

ONCE he gets a LEGIT chance to play top level meaningful mins, THEN THEN THEN we can assess him as yeah or nay.

He did not get that chance.
Qunn and Drury actively surpressed his chances, for whatev reason.

 

[bernmeister]

That's not an overpayment from New York though in any way.

From your roster, you're trading a pending UFA, a defenseman making a couple million too much a year forever, and a backup goalie.
From your system, you're trading a malcontent who the team allowed to seek a trade to anywhere who they've loaned to the KHL, an all-offensive AHL defenseman who is probably more Brendan Smith than Adam Fox, and another defenseman who I'm not even sure what he is at this point.
From your draft pick pool, two fourths for a 3rd essentially.

And for this you want a guy who's got 14 points in 22 games while playing on the top pairing as a rookie.

E: Most overpayment means... you're not trading for this guy unless it absolutely kills your team. Like we have no reason to give him to you or anyone, so if you want him, you need to make it so we can't turn it down.

Nobody in here that says Fox for Seider is going to actually think you'd trade Adam Fox for Moritz Seider... but that's the type of value I'd need if I'm moving Seider. I don't want your myriad packages of assets and your bullshit justifications why they're not stupid deals.

The guys in Mammoth's top grouping should be called functionally untouchable. The only assets/group of assets I'd accept for dealing any of those players (Larkin, Raymond, Seider) are trade offers that would never be made by the other team. Like for Larkin, if Edmonton wants to give me Draisaitl, they can have Larkin. They won't offer that, so Larkin is untouchable to them.

We're ascending without making dumb trades.

let's say then that we agree to disagree

you refuse to realistically consider OP premise, that is your choice
you demand LeoDrai for Larkin
that speaks to your excess of valuation, not mine.

 

[Copenhagen91]

How do I still get surprised by how ridiculous everything that bern spews. Just when I thought I’d seen the worst. It only gets worse. Someone has too much time on their hands.

 

[McSuper]

Detroit is doing better than expected this season. It's a little early. This makes it harder to rebuild the team. It is very difficult to get into the Stanley Cup this season.
NHL Hockey Standings

It is much easier to take 18-21 places. Detroit is now in 19th place. The teams played a different number of games.
NHL Hockey Standings

You can lose your chance, get Shane Wright in the lottery. Fortune owes Detroit.
NHL Entry Draft - Wikipedia

I think it is right for the team to make 3-4 exchanges this season. Get extra chances for the future. The 2022 lottery rules have changed.
2022 NHL Draft Lottery Odds | Tankathon

Then Detroit will take 22-27 places at the end of the season. After the exchanges, this will happen naturally.

Who are the potential dealmates for Detroit? I think these are teams that solve other problems. These are the teams fighting for the Stanley Cup.

I think any player can be exchanged. Withholding of wages is possible. We must remember about the limit of places for withholding salaries. The third team can participate in the exchange (@50% ret).

Group 1 - The partner in the deal must make a huge overpayment.
Simon Edvinsson, Moritz Seider, Lucas Raymond are the future of Detroit.
Dylan Larkin (UFA 2023) the team wants to sign a new contract with the player.

Group 2 - The partner in the deal must make an overpayment. Detroit does not need to change these players this season. Exchange is possible with a good offer. Withholding of wages is possible. This is the priority group for this. The cost of keeping a paycheck will be high.
Tyler Bertuzzi UFA 2023, Jakub Vrána UFA 2024, Filip Hronek RFA 2024.

Group 3 - The partner in the deal must make an overpayment. These players now have a minimum trade value. The reasons for this are different. These players have high potential. Accordingly, the value of the players may increase. Detroit doesn't need to change these players now.
The deal is possible when taking into account the potential of the players. They can be part of the deal. It is desirable for the player ELC (1/2C; 1/2LW; 1/2RW, 1/2LD; 1/2RD).
Filip Zadina, Jonatan Berggren, Joe Veleno, Michael Rasmussen, William Wallinder, Antti Tuomisto.

Group 4 - These are the players for the exchange. Exchange is possible to the team that offered the best price. Withholding of wages is possible subject to availability.
Thomas Greiss, Nick Leddy, Danny Dekeyser, Troy Stecher, Marc Staal, Vladislav Namestnikov, Pius Suter,
Robby Fabbri.

What suggestions are there for Detroit?

Thomas Greiss, Pius Suter,


Whats the ask for these 2 players from Edmonton ? We need to send some expiring contracts back to make the money work and my need some $$ retained

 

[The Real Pastafarian]

Thomas Greiss, Pius Suter,


Whats the ask for these 2 players from Edmonton ? We need to send some expiring contracts back to make the money work and my need some $$ retained

Give us your first round pick and we'll retain all the salary this year we're allowed to.

 

[Ice Mammoth]

Thomas Greiss, Pius Suter,


Whats the ask for these 2 players from Edmonton ? We need to send some expiring contracts back to make the money work and my need some $$ retained

Pius Suter $3,250,000 (UFA 2023) + Thomas Greiss $3,600,000 (UFA 2022) = $6,850,000

Withholding wages in this deal is undesirable.
Priority reservations for salary withholding places for: Tyler Bertuzzi UFA 2023, Jakub Vrána UFA 2024, Filip Hronek RFA 2024.
It is possible to include a third team in the deal. Edmonton pays for it.

Another option is possible.

Edmonton
Pius Suter + Thomas Greiss ($6,850,000)

Detroit
Mikko Koskinen + Kyle Turris ($6,150,000) + 1st 2022.

Changes and additions to this transaction are possible.
Detroit's main goal is getting 1st 2022.
In any case, Detroit must listen to the suggestions of other teams.
If there are no better deals, then you can go for a deal.

 

[McJedi]

Detroit isn't trading Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson/Larkin at all. Bertuzzi isn't tradeable at the moment because his value is way higher than what his vaccine status will allow him to return. (Which I'm glad for, Bertuzzi should absolutely be kept)

Guys like Zadina, Hronek, Veleno, Rasmussen, etc. are the type you package with something, and for Detroit, the likely target would be a top 6 center.

So in all likelihood, the only selling Detroit will be doing is Fabbri, Namestnikov, Greiss and maybe Leddy.

Which is Yzerman’s way of saying we’re not going to be busy moving players. My team is going to remain intact unless it’s very minor trades around the edges.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

let's say then that we agree to disagree

you refuse to realistically consider OP premise, that is your choice
you demand LeoDrai for Larkin
that speaks to your excess of valuation, not mine.

No, I’m saying our guy is untouchable. I wouldn’t jealously hold onto him if someone did something earthshatteringly stupid.

I knew that would be the response though.

Difference is I know Seider isn’t remotely worth Draisaitl at current. You actually think that your offer is excess value coming from NY for some reason.

The point of my post is that it would take something monumentally stupid from the other side to move a player, not something that even if you could get someone to agree that it is more value it doesn’t make sense

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Pius Suter $3,250,000 (UFA 2023) + Thomas Greiss $3,600,000 (UFA 2022) = $6,850,000

Withholding wages in this deal is undesirable.
Priority reservations for salary withholding places for: Tyler Bertuzzi UFA 2023, Jakub Vrána UFA 2024, Filip Hronek RFA 2024.
It is possible to include a third team in the deal. Edmonton pays for it.

Another option is possible.

Edmonton
Pius Suter + Thomas Greiss ($6,850,000)

Detroit
Mikko Koskinen + Kyle Turris ($6,150,000) + 1st 2022.

Changes and additions to this transaction are possible.
Detroit's main goal is getting 1st 2022.
In any case, Detroit must listen to the suggestions of other teams.
If there are no better deals, then you can go for a deal.

You know what, that’s not terrible.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Highly doubt Yzerman signed Suter to a 3 year deal to move him at the first TDL.

That's how you piss off future FA's that you're trying to get.

 

[Ice Mammoth]

Highly doubt Yzerman signed Suter to a 3 year deal to move him at the first TDL.

That's how you piss off future FA's that you're trying to get.

Pius Suter $3,250,000 (UFA 2023)
Getting to Edmonton is awful for the Pius Suter.
Getting on the Stanley Cup challenger team is awful.
Playing with McDavid and Draisaitl on the same team is terrible.
No NHL player wants this fate.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Pius Suter $3,250,000 (UFA 2023)
Getting to Edmonton is awful for the Pius Suter.
Getting on the Stanley Cup challenger team is awful.
Playing with McDavid and Draisaitl on the same team is terrible.
No NHL player wants this fate.

You do realize that some players sign these deals to get better opportunity for a future deal, right? Suter ain't playing 2C minutes in EDM.

Not to mention if Edmonton wanted him, and he wanted to be there, they would've made a deal. You may want to take a look at their cap situation beyond this year.

 

[Ice Mammoth]

You do realize that some players sign these deals to get better opportunity for a future deal, right? Suter ain't playing 2C minutes in EDM.

Not to mention if Edmonton wanted him, and he wanted to be there, they would've made a deal. You may want to take a look at their cap situation beyond this year.

Pius Suter in Edmonton = great Stanley Cup odds.
3C or 2C?
Maybe the chances of the cup are more important to the player.
Maybe there is an agreement on this.
Pius Suter = no NMC, NTC, M-NTC.

What is the financial situation in Edmonton?
See my comment on this page # 68.