Proposal: Detroit is changing players?

[bernmeister]

I did tell you that what you proposed is not an overpayment in any way, shape, or form, but I was told that I was wrong. Packaging a shit ton of assets together does not a good deal make. Mo Seider is on the short list of Calder contenders right now and it looks real. It doesn't look like he or Raymond are really even playing at a completely unsustainable pace. They're turning and burning, but they're just making good safe plays most of the time.

An honest effort wouldn't be droning on about how Kravstov has 9OA value because he doesn't. If he did, the Rangers wouldn't have said "Hey, Vitali, you can go shop your services around the league". They did that so he could see that he's not as good or valued as he thinks that he is. An honest effort wouldn't be comparing an AHL defenseman to the reigning Norris winner (on your own team) to pump up his value because "hey, he could be like Adam Fox, guys!". Hell, an honest value wouldn't be saying "we can get a 1st for him as a rental, so he's worth a 1st to you." You're not interested in honest efforts, bern.

not gonna spend time on all of this esp since I am super busy
The bold establishes you just want a conclusion of
NO

You ignore any effort to honestly ask if he was given a legit shot, regardless of why.

My position remains.
While it is conditional pending Krav actually getting the legit shot and demonstrating a passing grade or better for high performance expected of a 9OA, the rating stands unless/until AFTER he disqualifies himself by failing that shot.

This ^ factually has not yet happened.
Your conclusion that it has is wrong, and called out as such.

Also this being the case, the Rangers HAVE to do that. You can't just say they could and that makes him worth 9OA. If they do that and he proves it out, then he's recouped his value and you can get that price for him. But he has to be brought back and show out for this argument to make any f***ing sense.

We agree that when Ranger braintrust recovers from this exercise in massive stupidity and goes there so as to stop further mismanaging this asset, at that pt, we will all see what the results are.

But until then there is no reason to prejudge vs him.

And again, 20 games on the 4th line of an injured, shitshow team, is NOT a legit chance with top line material.

 

[Adam da bomb]

not gonna spend time on all of this esp since I am super busy
The bold establishes you just want a conclusion of
NO

You ignore any effort to honestly ask if he was given a legit shot, regardless of why.

My position remains.
While it is conditional pending Krav actually getting the legit shot and demonstrating a passing grade or better for high performance expected of a 9OA, the rating stands unless/until AFTER he disqualifies himself by failing that shot.

This ^ factually has not yet happened.
Your conclusion that it has is wrong, and called out as such.




We agree that when Ranger braintrust recovers from this exercise in massive stupidity and goes there so as to stop further mismanaging this asset, at that pt, we will all see what the results are.

But until then there is no reason to prejudge vs him.

And again, 20 games on the 4th line of an injured, shitshow team, is NOT a legit chance with top line material.

Krav may not have been given a fair opportunity so is better to hold onto if you think that he ever will be by organization. To think he retains original value to another organization because he hasn’t been given a fair shake is wrong. Another team would only trade for what he has proven, not much, because of being an unfair shake. I imagine there are lots of players who are never given a fair shake, but, trading teams don’t see a guy who is squandered they see results and will not try an unproven guy in their top 6. It’s what happened to Petan. The teams who care the most about a guy’s potential who isn’t in their teens is the team that drafted him.

 

[bernmeister]

Krav may not have been given a fair opportunity so is better to hold onto if you think that he ever will be by organization. To think he retains original value to another organization because he hasn’t been given a fair shake is wrong. Another team would only trade for what he has proven, not much, because of being an unfair shake. I imagine there are lots of players who are never given a fair shake, but, trading teams don’t see a guy who is squandered they see results and will not try an unproven guy in their top 6. It’s what happened to Petan. The teams who care the most about a guy’s potential who isn’t in their teens is the team that drafted him.

Another team -- quite properly so -- would not give a rat's ass as to whether or not he actually got a fair shake.
They would make their own internal assessment as to if he did get a fair, legit shake now w/quality top line Fs, would he help make that line productive?

Then of course, for those who conclude yes, they don't want to pay top dollar. Understandably, they like everyone wants a bargain.
And that is fine.
But NYR does not have to accommodate and give them that bargain.
Unless enough is on the table, makes more sense for NYR to return Krav as I described.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Another team -- quite properly so -- would not give a rat's ass as to whether or not he actually got a fair shake.
They would make their own internal assessment as to if he did get a fair, legit shake now w/quality top line Fs, would he help make that line productive?

Then of course, for those who conclude yes, they don't want to pay top dollar. Understandably, they like everyone wants a bargain.
And that is fine.
But NYR does not have to accommodate and give them that bargain.
Unless enough is on the table, makes more sense for NYR to return Krav as I described.

Very few players who struggle to make their own team are then given a chance in another team’s top 6 as far as I can tell. I can’t tell how much internal assessment is involved. Can you think of any, other than in expansion drafts?
As you have said NY doesn’t have to trade him but only way he gets good value is ny keeps him and he produces.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Another team -- quite properly so -- would not give a rat's ass as to whether or not he actually got a fair shake.
They would make their own internal assessment as to if he did get a fair, legit shake now w/quality top line Fs, would he help make that line productive?

Then of course, for those who conclude yes, they don't want to pay top dollar. Understandably, they like everyone wants a bargain.
And that is fine.
But NYR does not have to accommodate and give them that bargain.
Unless enough is on the table, makes more sense for NYR to return Krav as I described.

No one gives a crap if NYR gave Krav a fair shake, they care that he hasn't proven he deserves a second look. He's played in the NHL, AHL, and KHL and hasn't proven he deserves more than he's been given.
You don't get opportunities if you don't prove you deserve them. If he's so great, he shouldn't need higher talented players playing with him to do his thing, he should be carrying those 3rd and 4th lines he's been on and burning opposing teams on mismatches with his oh so untalented entitled "I'm going back to the KHL" mentality.

 

[bernmeister]

Very few players who struggle to make their own team are then given a chance in another team’s top 6 as far as I can tell. I can’t tell how much internal assessment is involved. Can you think of any, other than in expansion drafts?
As you have said NY doesn’t have to trade him but only way he gets good value is ny keeps him and he produces.

Agree 111% with your last sentence.
First part about precedent is moot.
Drury obv thought he was gonna push the kid around, and instead wound up pushing the wrong buttons, resulting in the current mess.

However, it is a mess they control short term and can recover from.

 

[bernmeister]

No one gives a crap if NYR gave Krav a fair shake, they care that he hasn't proven he deserves a second look. He's played in the NHL, AHL, and KHL and hasn't proven he deserves more than he's been given.
You don't get opportunities if you don't prove you deserve them. If he's so great, he shouldn't need higher talented players playing with him to do his thing, he should be carrying those 3rd and 4th lines he's been on and burning opposing teams on mismatches with his oh so untalented entitled "I'm going back to the KHL" mentality.

Everybody/anybody who is fair and open minded wishes to understand the situation accurately, in its entirety.

If Drury manipulation and other prior missteps including but not limited to idiot coach Q playing this guy on the 4th line have effectively not given him neither a fair chance nor paint an accurate picture of his production, everyone suffers from that inaccurate picture.
Rangers obviously have suffered, but so do potentially interested suitors who have to guess what he might actually be able to do.

He has performed well at KHL w/legit linemates.
He had shit for 4th line injury decimated NYR final 20 games last season
and AHL to date has been likewise bad.

Again, all efforts to falsely control the narrative and suppress Krav value until it is accurately established will be rebuffed.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Everybody/anybody who is fair and open minded wishes to understand the situation accurately, in its entirety.

If Drury manipulation and other prior missteps including but not limited to idiot coach Q playing this guy on the 4th line have effectively not given him neither a fair chance nor paint an accurate picture of his production, everyone suffers from that inaccurate picture.
Rangers obviously have suffered, but so do potentially interested suitors who have to guess what he might actually be able to do.

He has performed well at KHL w/legit linemates.
He had shit for 4th line injury decimated NYR final 20 games last season
and AHL to date has been likewise bad.

Again, all efforts to falsely control the narrative and suppress Krav value until it is accurately established will be rebuffed.

He has no value. No where near 9th oa value and sure as hell not remotely close to Sieder value.

All you're doing is making excuses for his lack of ability. You want to offer him up as a primary trade piece for a player like Seider? Krav needs to have proven he can carry his own line, not be a product of other skilled players. Krav can't even carry his own line in lesser leagues but you some how think he's as valuable as a rookie defensemen who is carrying his own pairing and playing 22+ mins a night in the NHL and has played similarly in lesser leagues to the point of being defensemen of the year in the SHL last year.

You're offering crap quanity for quality. You'd have to throw in more than krav and the other trash just to get us to eat Trouba's albatross of a contract much less what it would take to get Seider as a return.

Want us to take troubla's contract? Sure, toss in Fox, we'll let ya have Seider. If you aren't willing to ante up that kind of over payment, don't post your drivel offers of magic beans and busts.

 

[bernmeister]

He has no value. No where near 9th oa value and sure as hell not remotely close to Sieder value.

All you're doing is making excuses for his lack of ability. You want to offer him up as a primary trade piece for a player like Seider? Krav needs to have proven he can carry his own line, not be a product of other skilled players. Krav can't even carry his own line in lesser leagues but you some how think he's as valuable as a rookie defensemen who is carrying his own pairing and playing 22+ mins a night in the NHL and has played similarly in lesser leagues to the point of being defensemen of the year in the SHL last year.

You're offering crap quanity for quality. You'd have to throw in more than krav and the other trash just to get us to eat Trouba's albatross of a contract much less what it would take to get Seider as a return.

Want us to take troubla's contract? Sure, toss in Fox, we'll let ya have Seider. If you aren't willing to ante up that kind of over payment, don't post your drivel offers of magic beans and busts.

not gonna repeat myself
reading is yr friend
do it and THEN comment after you've comprehended something...

 

[HeHateMeFrisbee]

Why Holland ever moved away from just trusting Hakan Andersson is beyond me.

Three letters - EGO!

 

[dekelikekocur]

not gonna repeat myself
reading is yr friend
do it and THEN comment after you've comprehended something...

The only one struggling with reading comp or comprehension in general is you. Everyone has told you the same, Krav has no value in his current state (Or more specifically, he's not the main trading piece in an offer for Seider, he's an add on as a way to open a contract spot, nothing more), if the Rags want to rehab his value, that's on them to do, you don't pay full price for a clunker because it has potential, you pay full price for a fully restored vehicle not the project car up on blocks in the yard down the street.

 

[Henkka]

They'll probably sell guys like DeKeyser and Stecher for depth guys for somebody else.

And complete the season with their current Top6 defence.

Could see also Fabbri and Namestnikov gone, both as UFA rentals. Then Detroit will replace them by promoting Berggren and welcoming injured Vrana+Veleno back that time.

Yzerman did this kind of moves every season at Tampa. Team was still at playoff race, sometimes did hit at the playoffs, sometimes did fall. But almost always Yzerman was on sell side.

 

[19 for president]

If we remain semi competitive in the playoff race I don't see a lot happening (sell or buy). If we fall off then I think you see the below potentially get dealt.

Rentals (potentially dealt for picks)
Fabbri (UFA, Wings have Berggren in the wings waiting for a top 9 winger spot, and Vrana will likely be back) [1st or 2nd or held on to]
Namestikov (UFA, don't see the Wings resigning him, having a good season but not in the long term plans) [3rd or held onto]
Leddy (UFA, could see him resigned or dealt. Would require a good pick for the Wings to move him) [1st or 2nd or held onto]
Dekeyser (UFA, only see him moved if teams are desperate for Dmen and overpaying. Wings don't have a lot of AHL depth) [2nd or held on to]
Greiss (UFA, good backup/ 1A guy. Neds been great and Pickard could probably backup down the stretch if needed)
Gagner (UFA, maybe if a team wants depth, but I doubt he really returns much)
* Staal is another option but I doubt he gets dealt if he wasn't dealt last year.

I don't think Vrana or Bert get dealt this year, but could see one being dealt next year. Zadina or Ras could maybe be dealt but it would be in a hockey deal. We'd get a similar player back or they'd be used to get an upgrade.

2022-23 Wings

Bert-Larkin- Raymond
Vrana-Suter-Zadina
Breggren-Ras- Erne
Pearson-Stephens-Smith

Seider- UFA (Maybe Leddy)
Hronek- Edvidsson
Lindstrom- UFA (possibly another 4/6
Oesterle

Ned
Greiss or UFA

 

[bernmeister]

The only one struggling with reading comp or comprehension in general is you. Everyone has told you the same, Krav has no value in his current state (Or more specifically, he's not the main trading piece in an offer for Seider, he's an add on as a way to open a contract spot, nothing more), if the Rags want to rehab his value, that's on them to do, you don't pay full price for a clunker because it has potential, you pay full price for a fully restored vehicle not the project car up on blocks in the yard down the street.

No, not everybody, literally or figuratively.
A few hardliners who expect Rangers to capitulate when they control what happens.
K value STAYS THE SAME until legit opportunity to update establishes otherwise.

As to Seider
OP said what if
you didn't like the proposed return fine
you wanted more fine

but you misrepresent Krav as crap
no, not accurate, therefore not fine.

 

[dekelikekocur]

No, not everybody, literally or figuratively.
A few hardliners who expect Rangers to capitulate when they control what happens.
K value STAYS THE SAME until legit opportunity to update establishes otherwise.

As to Seider
OP said what if
you didn't like the proposed return fine
you wanted more fine

but you misrepresent Krav as crap
no, not accurate, therefore not fine.

You're right it stays the same, which is zero. He's a project at best and a bust at worst. That doesn't carry the value of a 9oa pick.

OP also indicated it would take a significant overpayment for seider or raymond. Krav trouba and whatever else trash you had suggested is the complete opposite of an overpayment. You'd have to toss in Fox just to get us to take Trouba and give up Seider not even getting into the other two players and what Det would want in return to eat their contracts.