Proposal: Detroit-Anaheim

[dracom]

True, but we don't have to trade Fowler to the DRW. I'm just cautious when it comes to bringing over wingers from the East who've only ever played in the East. I mean, we had Hagelin facepalm and look how successful Palms has been with NJ (). Maybe, just maybe, Tatar is another winger better suited for the East. In which case, we get totally screwed because it's kind of a given that Fowler is better suited for the East, his main criticism being he avoids contact.

For the record, I wouldn't be disappointed with Tatar. I just have concerns. Hence, I'd like another nice piece i.e. AA to cover the risk.

True, didn't mean to say we had to, just that the Tatar offer is kind of the best offer we got (it's no Tyler Ennis offer ) for Fowler. I get your concern, guess I just feel like Tatar would be able to handle the change better than Hagelin did.

In any case, I think Fowler ends up going to the East and we'll have a guy who has had success in the East. Since I don't see us landing Landeskog for Fowler, but who knows who's worth what anymore after the Hall/Larsson trade.

 

[Birko19]

Been watching Fowler for quite a while now and I'm sorry for saying this, but he's not worth some of the packages people are throwing here.

The last time this kid produced like a top pairing guy was 5 years ago, he's top-4 right now at best, sure he's 24 years old but I'm seeing packages where people are throwing Tatar plus other significant prospects, why? Tatar as far as I'm concerned is only a year older and is a legit top-6 guy that produces such numbers today, why should we add Mantha and a pick? I would say a straight up trade, Tatar for Fowler, if anything Detroit adds players they no longer use (Jurco or Pulkkinen for example). You can forget about the likes of Mantha, AA, or high picks.

 

[Ducks in a row]

I'm not a fan of either team. But it seems Detroit is looking for a top tier defenseman, and Anaheim needs to unload salary (Fowler) in order to re-sign Lindholm.

To Detroit:
D- C. Fowler

To Anaheim:
F- T. Jurco
F- A. Mantha
2017 2nd round pick

Detroit gets a top-pair, pick moving defenseman. Anaheim gets two cheap wingers who can play either side, are both bigger players and are left handed shots, as preferred by Bob Murray, one of whom is a premium prospect.

To me this is a fair deal all the way around.

Not interested we need something that helps us to better win now then that.

Been watching Fowler for quite a while now and I'm sorry for saying this, but he's not worth some of the packages people are throwing here.

The last time this kid produced like a top pairing guy was 5 years ago, he's top-4 right now at best, sure he's 24 years old but I'm seeing packages where people are throwing Tatar plus other significant prospects, why? Tatar as far as I'm concerned is only a year older and is a legit top-6 guy that produces such numbers today, why should we add Mantha and a pick? I would say a straight up trade, Tatar for Fowler, if anything Detroit adds players they no longer use (Jurco or Pulkkinen for example). You can forget about the likes of Mantha, AA, or high picks.

Their is more to being a top pairing guy then how many points he produces. Fowler best offensive season was his rookie season but he has improved his all around game since then. When healthy he is good for 30+ points while playing over 21 min a game and he has been getting less offensive zone starts 5 on 5. At best he is a top pair defenseman at worst you can say a #3D

 

[mytduxfan*]

Been watching Fowler for quite a while now and I'm sorry for saying this, but he's not worth some of the packages people are throwing here.

You say this...

The last time this kid produced like a top pairing guy was 5 years ago, he's top-4 right now at best, sure he's 24 years old but I'm seeing packages where people are throwing Tatar plus other significant prospects, why? Tatar as far as I'm concerned is only a year older and is a legit top-6 guy that produces such numbers today, why should we add Mantha and a pick? I would say a straight up trade, Tatar for Fowler, if anything Detroit adds players they no longer use (Jurco or Pulkkinen for example). You can forget about the likes of Mantha, AA, or high picks.

... and then follow it up with this. Gotta admit, I'm calling ******** on the whole "I've watched Fowler" comment. Fowler was not a top pairing D-man in his rookie season. He wasn't even facing top competition and was probably the most sheltered out of all our D-men. Fowler may score less now, but he's up against tougher competition, has a much, much better overall game (his biggest strength being his defensive game), and has been our #1D for the passed 3 seasons. Right now he's a #2D who's out of his depth in the role he's in, but he's most certainly a top pairing D-man.

As far as value, we can disagree on that. I'm just saying I'd (me personally) want Tatar + AA to feel comfortable with such a deal. However, I completely understand that's a tall ask from a DET POV.

 

[taylorjonl]

As far as value, we can disagree on that. I'm just saying I'd (me personally) want Tatar + AA to feel comfortable with such a deal. However, I completely understand that's a tall ask from a DET POV.

I wouldn't say AA is untouchable but a package of Tatar + AA is a big price to pay, IMO.

 

[Birko19]

You say this...



... and then follow it up with this. Gotta admit, I'm calling ******** on the whole "I've watched Fowler" comment. Fowler was not a top pairing D-man in his rookie season. He wasn't even facing top competition and was probably the most sheltered out of all our D-men. Fowler may score less now, but he's up against tougher competition, has a much, much better overall game (his biggest strength being his defensive game), and has been our #1D for the passed 3 seasons. Right now he's a #2D who's out of his depth in the role he's in, but he's most certainly a top pairing D-man.

As far as value, we can disagree on that. I'm just saying I'd (me personally) want Tatar + AA to feel comfortable with such a deal. However, I completely understand that's a tall ask from a DET POV.

A top pairing guy needs to have that offensive game, if Fowler is a top pairing guy then Dany Dekeyser is not that far off either.

It's very rare to have a guy who scores less then 40 points and be considered a true top pairing dman, I can honestly only think of one guy in his prime that got away with it, and that was Derian Hatcher, but he got away with it because he was a beast defensively and it was a different era. I don't think Fowler is at that level.

 

[lidstromiscool]

A top pairing guy needs to have that offensive game, if Fowler is a top pairing guy then Dany Dekeyser is not that far off either.

It's very rare to have a guy who scores less then 40 points and be considered a true top pairing dman, I can honestly only think of one guy in his prime that got away with it, and that was Derian Hatcher, but he got away with it because he was a beast defensively and it was a different era. I don't think Fowler is at that level.

I think they are both easily top pairing guys. Dekeyser more so because of his defense and good first pass, while Fowler more so because of his solid defense and decent offense. They might not be #1 dmen but they can both hold their own on a top pairing. I would give up Tatar + something small for Fowler and think that its a fair deal. Would understand if Duck fans wouldn’t do it but it seems both fan bases are pretty similar in what they view fair value.

 

[Syckle78]

Needs to have a proven top 6 forward. Either Tatar+Mantha or Tatar+Sheahan.

Don't think you'll get tartar plus either. Not that I wouldn't do it. I'd easily do plus sheahan but I can't see Kenny hoarder giving up two roster players. More likely it would be tartar plus futures.

 

[Ducks in a row]

A top pairing guy needs to have that offensive game, if Fowler is a top pairing guy then Dany Dekeyser is not that far off either.

It's very rare to have a guy who scores less then 40 points and be considered a true top pairing dman, I can honestly only think of one guy in his prime that got away with it, and that was Derian Hatcher, but he got away with it because he was a beast defensively and it was a different era. I don't think Fowler is at that level.

A top pair has 2 defenseman on it.

2013-14 season had 26 defenseman with 40 points or more. Fowler was tied for 34th overall in points from the blueline.

2014-15 season had 27 defenseman with 40 points or more. Fowler was tied for 40th overall in points from the blueline.

2015-16 season had 26 defenseman with 40 points or more. Fowler was tied for 53rd overall in points from the blueline.

How many top pair defenseman do you think are in the NHL?

 

[Birko19]

A top pair has 2 defenseman on it.

2013-14 season had 26 defenseman with 40 points or more. Fowler was tied for 34th overall in points from the blueline.

2014-15 season had 27 defenseman with 40 points or more. Fowler was tied for 40th overall in points from the blueline.

2015-16 season had 26 defenseman with 40 points or more. Fowler was tied for 53rd overall in points from the blueline.

How many top pair defenseman do you think are in the NHL?

How many? Not that many, that's for sure.

Fowler is #3 guy in my books, though he could be a top pairing guy if he produces more which may happen. But I can also say that if Tatar was given the chance, he may also be able to produce more. This is why I think if Tatar is the price going back today, I don't think Detroit needs to add a whole lot with him.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

This dead horse is dead, OP.

Hope the Wings trade for Fowler. I'm looking for a roster shakeup next season. It's in your court, Kenny.

 

[Paul4587]

Because some of us don't see Tatar being the best fit in the West and the option to select one of two fringe NHLers as an add-on doesn't make up for the potential risk of him not being the 25-30 goal scorer he's been with DET?

Tomas Tatar career vs eastern teams:

159gp 41 goals, 82 points (21 goal, 42 point pace)

Career Vs western teams:

104gp 33 goals, 66 points (26 goal, 52 point pace)

I've watched plenty of Tatar, I don't see his style of play being that much of an issue, he's nowhere near as much of a perimeter player as you are making out.

 

[Birko19]

Tomas Tatar career vs eastern teams:

159gp 41 goals, 82 points (21 goal, 42 point pace)

Career Vs western teams:

104gp 33 goals, 66 points (26 goal, 52 point pace)

I've watched plenty of Tatar, I don't see his style of play being that much of an issue, he's nowhere near as much of a perimeter player as you are making out.

You're right, he's far from a perimeter player. The guy can skate, handle the puck, has an excellent shot, not afraid of physical play, and can score goals from all areas of the offensive zone. I really think he's being underrated around here, he sort of reminds me of Slava Kozlov.

 

[mytduxfan*]

A top pairing guy needs to have that offensive game, if Fowler is a top pairing guy then Dany Dekeyser is not that far off either.

It's very rare to have a guy who scores less then 40 points and be considered a true top pairing dman, I can honestly only think of one guy in his prime that got away with it, and that was Derian Hatcher, but he got away with it because he was a beast defensively and it was a different era. I don't think Fowler is at that level.

That's quite possibly true. I have no idea about DDs game (see, not so hard to admit you don't watch a player). Your expectations seems insanely high for top pairing D-men. I mean, you do realise we're talking #2D, not #1D. The gap between those two players and the expectations are very different. A #1D needs to do it all and against the best, whilst a #2D is someone who can do the minutes, remain consistent and not look out of place against top competition i.e. not get beat regularly. Fowler can absolutely do the latter, but, as you so rightly pointed out, struggles to do it "all" against top competition.

How many? Not that many, that's for sure.

Fowler is #3 guy in my books, though he could be a top pairing guy if he produces more which may happen. But I can also say that if Tatar was given the chance, he may also be able to produce more. This is why I think if Tatar is the price going back today, I don't think Detroit needs to add a whole lot with him.

Huh? Did you read that post correctly? Fowler was top 60 in pts amongst D-men for the last 3 seasons. Even if we're going on scoring alone, he's a top 60 guy i.e. top pairing. If you factor in his very strong D game, it's not even a question.

Tomas Tatar career vs eastern teams:

159gp 41 goals, 82 points (21 goal, 42 point pace)

Career Vs western teams:

104gp 33 goals, 66 points (26 goal, 52 point pace)

I've watched plenty of Tatar, I don't see his style of play being that much of an issue, he's nowhere near as much of a perimeter player as you are making out.

You're late to the party. See post #47, and #48 for my response.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Smith is not a throw in. Not sure how you gauge his value as the same as two unproven prospects? He's arguably Detroit's best all around defensemen.

Great, I'm sure Anaheim would accept Tatar+Smith then.. or maybe Smith straight up.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I'm not a fan of either team. But it seems Detroit is looking for a top tier defenseman, and Anaheim needs to unload salary (Fowler) in order to re-sign Lindholm.

To Detroit:
D- C. Fowler

To Anaheim:
F- T. Jurco
F- A. Mantha
2017 2nd round pick

Detroit gets a top-pair, pick moving defenseman. Anaheim gets two cheap wingers who can play either side, are both bigger players and are left handed shots, as preferred by Bob Murray, one of whom is a premium prospect.

To me this is a fair deal all the way around.

Doesn't work cap wise for Detroit, Tomas Tatar/Gustav Nyquist+Detroit's 2017 2nd round pick should easily get us Cam Fowler. Doubt we part with Anthony Mantha for Cam Fowler.

 

[CanadienShark]

So if Holland won't do it...and BM won't do it...

That means they should do it.

HF logic.

If it's bad for both sides, it must be a good deal.

#HFLogic

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I'd want Tatar and AA for Fowler.

I think Fowler will thrive in the faster, less physical East and particularly under the DET system. Meanwhile, I have reservations about Tatar in the West. He's a perimeter shooter and receives a fair amount of silky smooth passes leading up to most of his goals. I'm not sure he'd get that in ANA, particularly under RC - who loves the dump and chase. I'm not saying Tatar would fail in ANA, but I'm not convinced he'd be the 29 goal scorer or even the 25 goal scorer he's been in DET. Those perimeter areas are fiercely contested in the West and I'm not sure Tatar has the muscle or the volition to fight for them. It just doesn't seem like part of his game.

You might want Tatar and AA for Fowler, But you wont get Tatar and AA for Fowler while AA isn't untouchable he is for Fowler. I might include AA in a deal for Trouba but no way is he getting moved for Fowler.

 

[mytduxfan*]

You might want Tatar and AA for Fowler, But you wont get Tatar and AA for Fowler while AA isn't untouchable he is for Fowler. I might include AA in a deal for Trouba but no way is he getting moved for Fowler.

Agree with you on this. It's just what I'd personally want in order to be completely comfortable with the deal. However, I'm a greedy *******, so...

 

[OutsideLookingIn]

You might want Tatar and AA for Fowler, But you wont get Tatar and AA for Fowler while AA isn't untouchable he is for Fowler. I might include AA in a deal for Trouba but no way is he getting moved for Fowler.

Winnipeg needs left D, Detroit needs right D and Anaheim need forwards. Fowler and Trouba are both young could be fairly equal in value, maybe Winnioeg should get a little plus in the deal.

Winnioeg Fowler, Ouelete, plus a pick
Detroit. Trouba
Anaheim. Tatar, Nyquist

 

[BinCookin]

Winnipeg needs left D, Detroit needs right D and Anaheim need forwards. Fowler and Trouba are both young could be fairly equal in value, maybe Winnioeg should get a little plus in the deal.

Winnioeg Fowler, Ouelete, plus a pick
Detroit. Trouba
Anaheim. Tatar, Nyquist

ouch for Detroit

 

[Ducksgo*]

ouch for Detroit

I think Ouch for Winnipeg. There's no way Jets are gonna let loose on Trouba. That's there franchise defenseman.

 

[BinCookin]

I think Ouch for Winnipeg. There's no way Jets are gonna let loose on Trouba. That's there franchise defenseman.

quick question.. expansion draft, are you guys going to protect 4 D??

 

[mytduxfan*]

quick question.. expansion draft, are you guys going to protect 4 D??

Tbh, we don't know. Personally, I don't think we will. If we can't get value for Fowler now, we'll move him next year before the draft. I know we'll get less value on him, but it's still better then moving him for nothing this year i.e. the garbage Ennis+, Emelin+ and Yak+ offers we've been receiving on here.

My take? Before the start of next season, BM eventually gets what he wants for Fowler i.e. a highly-skilled LH LW.

 

[Dead Thing Fan]

Ana/Wpg/Det

To Ana: Nyquist + Pulkkinen

To Wpg: Fowler + Det 2017 1st(top 7 lottery protected)

To Det: Trouba