Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[Gabriel426]

I think he can tell the difference, but was expecting a different Simmonds. He does play a taxing game, but he was still in his early 30's, would be joining a good team, and I think they expected a guy who could reasonably provide 30 points and play 2PP as a net-front guy. He looked like he could do that for two and a half weeks last year, and the rest of the time, he was pretty much just an enforcer.

He doesn't really seem interested in playing a skill game anymore, and I think we are done with him (at least on the Leafs).

I am hoping Dubas gets away from trying to build a championship culture with killer instinct though. Going after killer instinct is when things started going south. Get back to guys who play fast, crisp, and work hard. Fortunately, those are the kinds of guys that Dubas liked to breed when he was Marlies GM, and that has continued with a lot of the guys brought in since he has left.

I don't think Dubas went after guys with Killer Instincts, if he did, Perry would have been on the team.
I think he tried to surround guys with good vets but it was hit and miss. Spezza and Gio are hits while Joe and Simmonds were misses.

 

[Gabriel426]

I'm around the same age as Dubas in a completely different profession, so maybe I'm projecting a bit. But when you're coming up, what is your approach to your job? Are you learning your craft and being a student of game, or are you jumping in to be a disruptor and innovator, trying to beat the old masters by finding the hack? Obviously, it's going to be a blend of both no matter what you do. But the Dubas project has always had a big ego component to it and as much as we're waiting on Matthews and Marner to learn to win, we're also waiting for Dubas to figure out how to build a resilient winner.

I think Dubas was not trying to outsmart other GMs by going in a different approach. He sees what he has(when he took over) and added a piece that was the biggest UFA in the Cap era and thought the team would go far right away. That didn't happened.
I believe if he looks back and redo his steps. He would definitely be tougher with Willie with the negotiation and might even make the trade with Willie as a main piece to get a top pairing Dman like Pietra( think the Blues was struggling big time during the beginning of that season). BC at that time, the wingers were Hyman, MM, AJ, Kap, Marleau and Brown. Also there is Leivo. Would also work on the AM right away instead of dragging it into the season, same with the MM deal.

 

[Stephen]

1. You are assuming the core will mature into a Cup winning team, but the core could also be what they are now.
2. To me, replacing Dubas had more to do with trusting someone with the tough decisions on improving the team. The Shanaplan would be the same but it will a new person coming in and build on the current Leafs.
3. I think the Leafs is right there but there is also something about the top guys collectively that can't seem to move them forward as a group. I am not in the room thus I don't know what and who, but it could be AM and if it is AM, could Dubas make the hard decision.

I don’t know if the core will mature and harden into winners. It’s not an inevitable process, just like the Senators and Sharks never got there. But I think the sunk cost in the core and management means you just run it back over and over.

The biggest and most obvious problem is Tavares. Nice guy and everything but the ROI is clearly not what it needs to be and fitting him in has caused a small army of high quality support cast to be booted out the door. Problem is Dubas has also put himself into a contractual straight jacket so the hard decision isn’t even available to him if he was willing to make it.

 

[Felix the Cat Potvin]

I don't think the issue is Tavares exactly. People dissect the on-ice results to death, but what often matters is the chemistry behind the scenes. I think we all know it. Tavares and Matthews are polar opposites in terms of personality. I can't imagine them having a conversation. Yet they're our two most important players. Add in the captain controversy and you have a very weird vibe in the locker-room.

The Tavares signing was a rookie GM looking to make a splash and prove to everyone what a great GM he was without any consideration of the actual impact on the team. It makes me feel genuinely sick to think of the team we missed out on with Kadri as 2C, Matthews as captain of a truly young and exciting team not burdened with slowing vets, and a genuine middle-6 of all the character players we ushered out the door (Marchment, Kapanen, Hyman, Moore, Mikheyev, Brown).

 

[deprw]

I don’t know if the core will mature and harden into winners. It’s not an inevitable process, just like the Senators and Sharks never got there. But I think the sunk cost in the core and management means you just run it back over and over.

The biggest and most obvious problem is Tavares. Nice guy and everything but the ROI is clearly not what it needs to be and fitting him in has caused a small army of high quality support cast to be booted out the door. Problem is Dubas has also put himself into a contractual straight jacket so the hard decision isn’t even available to him if he was willing to make it.

No one can guarantee that this core matures into winners, but if you look up how this league produces winners we are on that path. It's interesting take to think about that our core is flawed, could be terrible mistake to dismantle it. I think it has been surprise to us fans and also Dubas & Shanny how long it takes to mature. If we look Avalanche it took for that core decade and same with Tampa to win.

It can be said that adding Tavares and building that older core around our young players haven't worked out. I think the strategy was to avoid some growing pains by adding more experienced core player, but Tavares has been disappointment.

Though if we start this cycle again I think we will compete in 5-10 years if we use Avalanche as example. We have to pretty sure to do that, because like said it's long cycle to build team again, draft well and develop those youngsters.

My worst fear at the moment is that added pressure of our market is making it more hard for us to contend, than it would be somewhere else. Team should only play for themselves not towards our hopes and expectations.

 

[Heffyhoof]

As a Habs fan and a Leaf hater I like your GM. Reminds me a lot of Bergevin in that the team has the potential (Price was a top 3 player at the time) but the useless GM keeps making excuses for squandering it despite media help.

Your team is far better than the Habs when Price was the best in the world, but your GM needs to make serious moves.

 

[ToneDog]

As a Habs fan and a Leaf hater I like your GM. Reminds me a lot of Bergevin in that the team has the potential (Price was a top 3 player at the time) but the useless GM keeps making excuses for squandering it despite media help.

Your team is far better than the Habs when Price was the best in the world, but your GM needs to make serious moves.

Leafs fans loved Bergevin while Habs fans love Dubas. Go figure.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So only the good stuff and not the bad stuff that they are a part of as well?

No, nobody said anything close to that. We can look at the opportunities allowed while they're on the ice, and apply that appropriately to them, but we just can't arbitrarily apply the goaltender's performance to them to make them look worse than they are.

So.. goalie was the problem, honest question with the goalies available this offseason or potential trade targets do you see a clear upgrade that can come in and stabilize.

I mean, that's a different discussion entirely. We're obviously not going to go out and get a consistent carry like Vasilevsky or Shesterkin, but there are absolutely goalies out there that can provide much better goaltending than the 8th worst goaltending we got this past season. In fact, the exact same goalies would probably provide better goaltending than that.

Is it also reasonable to expect a contending team to adapt and alter to play stronger to support average goaltending. We just watched a team win the title that had the ability to buckle down enough and play to support an average goalie with very sub average statline.

To a certain extent. We do play strong to support average goaltending, but there is a limit to what skaters can do. Quite frankly, Colorado was fortunate that they ran into 2 teams missing their #1 goalies and then a 40 year old Smith on their way to the Cup.

You identify any area you can that contributed to goals going in (not stats but actual on ice plays - this is where coaches actually come in) and you try and fix the areas that limit pucks getting to the net.

Sure, but no matter what you do, shots are still going to get to the net. No team allows anywhere close to 0 shots. You still need your goalie to save those shots at at least a league average rate relative to their quality.

If he was so crappy...why would FLA give us anything for him and why would someone claim him off of waivers?

Fringe players get claimed all the time. Especially when you're waived in Toronto. Considering that Florida didn't even play Marchment in the NHL that year, it looks like they primarily got him for their AHL team. Minor players get shuffled around a lot. This deal would have been forgotten the next day in most cities. Even if he didn't get claimed or traded, he was UFA in a year.

But to say he was just flat out not good enough when he was only given 4 games and Slick Nick Abruzzesse was given 10 games doesn't add up.

Of course it does. He was only given 4 games because he wasn't good enough. He didn't even really earn those 4 games. He had 4 years in the organization to prove himself.

 

[Trapper]

Leafs fans loved Bergevin while Habs fans love Dubas. Go figure.

Even players understand the importance of team money balance:

Brad Marchand replied from his verified Twitter account, speculating how many millions of dollars the average annual value of Marner's new contract would be.

"I cant wait to see this kids new deal... 12m AAV?? It better be," said Marchand, adding the hashtag .Marnerwatch.

If you spend 12 on one guy (no matter how good he is) and the other team has 2 stars that combine for 14 million, figure it out.

 

[ToneDog]

Even players understand the importance of team money balance:

Brad Marchand replied from his verified Twitter account, speculating how many millions of dollars the average annual value of Marner's new contract would be.

"I cant wait to see this kids new deal... 12m AAV?? It better be," said Marchand, adding the hashtag .Marnerwatch.

If you spend 12 on one guy (no matter how good he is) and the other team has 2 stars that combine for 14 million, figure it out.

Dubas going to do it with 7 forwards making less than his #1C, #2C and #1RWer.

 

[Trapper]

Dubas going to do it with 7 forwards making less than his #1C, #2C and #1RWer.

JT, Matthews and Marner combine for 33 million.
Let’s be honest with the homer love. In the playoffs, these guys are good, but they aren’t next level, McDavid 33 points in 16 games good.
They aren’t seriously outplaying the other teams top guys.

So if you spend 33 million on 3 guys and I can spend 33 million on 5/6 guys, and performances are equal otherwise, who is winning 9 out of 10 times?

I don’t see our fortunes changing until we can get rid of the Tavares contract (in a new flat cap world), maybe even change the core dynamic, have 2/3 drafted players exceed our hopes to join the lineup and improve support depth.

Dubas wants these guys to take the next step but has handcuffed them to do so.

 

[ToneDog]

JT, Matthews and Marner combine for 33 million.
Let’s be honest with the homer love. In the playoffs, these guys are good, but they aren’t next level, McDavid 33 points in 16 games good.
They aren’t seriously outplaying the other teams top guys.

So if you spend 33 million on 3 guys and I can spend 33 million on 5/6 guys, and performances are equal otherwise, who is winning 9 out of 10 times?

I don’t see our fortunes changing until we can get rid of the Tavares contract (in a new flat cap world), maybe even change the core dynamic, have 2/3 drafted players exceed our hopes to join the lineup and improve support depth.

Dubas wants these guys to take the next step but has handcuffed them to do so.

If he can find a supporting cast who can play playoff hockey, and open up space for 16,34,91 and 88 to do their thing. They got to find a way to get Tavares going. If not, we are a one line team going nowhere.

 

[TorMapleJays]

i must admit, it is pretty impressive to haves rookie GM take over a 105pt team and NOT win a round in six years.


Like, you got to give respect where respect is due and that is one impressive accomplishment. How many people could do what he did in the same period of time?

Seriously.. that is like 99th percentile accomplishments.

Impressive.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm a Montreal fan and you guys are overreacting to two losses that could have easily gone the other way, and then all the way,

I don't like Dubas but the Tavares signing was a great gamble that turned out only OK. JT singlehandedly took the Islanders in the 2nd round in 2016. He sorta lost a step even though he's putting up his points.

Either way, Auston Matthews is a unicorn and he's gonna eventually push you through that wall.

 

[Racer88]

I'm a Montreal fan and you guys are overreacting to two losses that could have easily gone the other way, and then all the way,

I don't like Dubas but the Tavares signing was a great gamble that turned out only OK. JT singlehandedly took the Islanders in the 2nd round in 2016. He sorta lost a step even though he's putting up his points.

Either way, Auston Matthews is a unicorn and he's gonna eventually push you through that wall.

We are reacting to 6 years of failure

 

[BenchBrawl]

We are reacting to 6 years of failure

I think you just got unlucky. Toronto scared me in 2021, more than Vegas that's for sure.

 

[hotpaws]

I'm a Montreal fan and you guys are overreacting to two losses that could have easily gone the other way, and then all the way,

I don't like Dubas but the Tavares signing was a great gamble that turned out only OK. JT singlehandedly took the Islanders in the 2nd round in 2016. He sorta lost a step even though he's putting up his points.

Either way, Auston Matthews is a unicorn and he's gonna eventually push you through that wall.

he;s singlehandedly responsible for the most success they've had in 40 years including 2 conference finals when he left

 

[hotpaws]

We are reacting to 6 years of failure

there's no bigger Dubas supporters then Mon/Bos fans and they'll also be the most upset when he gets fired

i must admit, it is pretty impressive to haves rookie GM take over a 105pt team and NOT win a round in six years.


Like, you got to give respect where respect is due and that is one impressive accomplishment. How many people could do what he did in the same period of time?

Seriously.. that is like 99th percentile accomplishments.

Impressive.

it's his woke progressive out of the box thinking that's put him into that high a percentile

 

[Dreakmur]

I think you just got unlucky. Toronto scared me in 2021, more than Vegas that's for sure.

We get “unlucky” every year.

 

[BenchBrawl]

We get “unlucky” every year.

It's clear next year is Dubas and maybe Shanahan's last chance. So enjoy the show either way.

 

[Leafblooded]

This thread title is so false it's libelous

 

[egd27]

It's clear next year is Dubas and maybe Shanahan's last chance. So enjoy the show either way.

Most said that last off season. Some said it the off season before that.

JT was a mistake, Keefe was a mistake. One of them you could recover from, but he refuses.

 

[All Mod Cons]

It's clear next year is Dubas and maybe Shanahan's last chance. So enjoy the show either way.

I think they're here to stay.

 

[rocketman588]

I think they're here to stay.

The Toronto Media will be worried about losing their access and will be more then happy to push the AM will leave if Dubas does narrative

This was the year we had to do it unfortunately

 

[Maple Leaf]

He passed the test