Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[Racer88]

In order to make a trade you have to have an awareness of what the team needs.
If you believe everything is fine, you probably keep rearranging the deck chairs.

Like a solid idea is:
We need a 2C like Cirelli. Someone who can play a hard 2-way game and score at pivotal moments.

We need a solid D like Byram (example) to pair with Rielly moving forward.

We need a solid presence in net that can be here for the next x years.

Then what is more important? Having 4 forwards take up half the Cap, or all the things from the list above.

Apparently to Dubas, Shanny and some here having 4 forwards eating 50% of the cap is no big deal.

 

[Trapper]

Apparently to Dubas, Shanny and some here having 4 forwards eating 50% of the cap is no big deal.

I can give them 0-4 reasons why not.

 

[Racer88]

I think it would be a mistake to blow up the management team now. Not because they necessarily deserve job security but because a mandated house cleaning out of frustration can damage the franchise further by creating more chaos and panic moves. Ignoring history this regular season and playoffs is also not a fireable offense.

Plus the new management team would be starting with the same handcuffs as the current one at the salary cap level. So it doesn’t get you closer to a cup.

I guess we wil have to live with the slow death one playoff failure at a time instead of ripping the bandaid off that is Dubas and Shanny

I can give them 0-4 reasons why not.

I hear ya…….the reasons are endless

 

[ShaneFalco]

True and some that don't like any sort of positivity.

Yes lots to celebrate with the Leafs and training wheels Dubas and his buddy coach.
And let's not confuse positivity for constant excuses

 

[Stephen]

I guess we wil have to live with the slow death one playoff failure at a time instead of ripping the bandaid off that is Dubas and Shanny

I'm not a big Dubas guy, but I think he's learning some hard lessons in hockey with each passing season and playoff failure, almost like the hockey equivalent of an Alex Anthopolous - who eventually delivered a World Series somewhere else. Question is do we want him to deliver a title somewhere else having botched the Shanaplan, or do we let him grow like the core members of the team as an executive? No right answer but this is the dynamic Brendan Shanahan has created.

 

[Trapper]

I'm not a big Dubas guy, but I think he's learning some hard lessons in hockey with each passing season and playoff failure, almost like the hockey equivalent of an Alex Anthopolous - who eventually delivered a World Series somewhere else. Question is do we want him to deliver a title somewhere else having botched the Shanaplan, or do we let him grow like the core members of the team as an executive? No right answer but this is the dynamic Brendan Shanahan has created.

The question is, what if the assembled core doesn’t grow into what you want? Is he willing to change?
And what if as we said, many issues lie with the allocation of half the Cap. Is he willing to fix that. Or even consider that?

Are they looking at all possibilities or do they think they are just unlucky, the guys will learn? Why didn’t MacKinnon/Duchene/O’Reilly or Thornton/Marleau just learn?

Are they seeing what they want to like many people here. Not everything is bad, but not everything is good. And I don’t just mean bottom 6.

Is half the Cap doing more harm than good? Who puts the team first?

 

[Leaf Fans]

Yes lots to celebrate with the Leafs and training wheels Dubas and his buddy coach.
And let's not confuse positivity for constant excuses

Maybe you have confused the two, but I haven't. The rest you just made up.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I'm not a big Dubas guy, but I think he's learning some hard lessons in hockey with each passing season and playoff failure, almost like the hockey equivalent of an Alex Anthopolous - who eventually delivered a World Series somewhere else. Question is do we want him to deliver a title somewhere else having botched the Shanaplan, or do we let him grow like the core members of the team as an executive? No right answer but this is the dynamic Brendan Shanahan has created.

But cap wise we have to wait until Tavares hits UFA again. So that's 3 years. So for next 3 years, we have to go through the motions.

 

[Stephen]

But cap wise we have to wait until Tavares hits UFA again. So that's 3 years. So for next 3 years, we have to go through the motions.

Yeah exactly, we're in cap jail until the Tavares era is over. Could see a meaningful upswing after that with the core intact and maybe a new group of players ready to push up ready to become part of the evolving core.

 

[Stephen]

The question is, what if the assembled core doesn’t grow into what you want? Is he willing to change?
And what if as we said, many issues lie with the allocation of half the Cap. Is he willing to fix that. Or even consider that?

Are they looking at all possibilities or do they think they are just unlucky, the guys will learn? Why didn’t MacKinnon/Duchene/O’Reilly or Thornton/Marleau just learn?

Are they seeing what they want to like many people here. Not everything is bad, but not everything is good. And I don’t just mean bottom 6.

Is half the Cap doing more harm than good? Who puts the team first?

I think the jury is still out on whether Dubas knows what he's doing when it comes to building a championship culture with killer instinct. He's still a young executive and I would have a hard time believing he's hip to all the old savvy insights someone whose been through the playoff battles for decades would. (i.e. can he tell the difference between a Wayne Simmonds and a Corey Perry).

Alex Anthopolous had to figure it out and supplement his Jays roster which produced the 2015 and 2016 runs and later took his learning to winning a World Series in Atlanta. I don't want to play the lazy repeat from history game but this next phase is kind of both treading water and seeing if Dubas is getting his education in the game re: chemistry, team construction, goaltending, etc. I think we just need to stay the course a bit more.

 

[Racer88]

I'm not a big Dubas guy, but I think he's learning some hard lessons in hockey with each passing season and playoff failure, almost like the hockey equivalent of an Alex Anthopolous - who eventually delivered a World Series somewhere else. Question is do we want him to deliver a title somewhere else having botched the Shanaplan, or do we let him grow like the core members of the team as an executive? No right answer but this is the dynamic Brendan Shanahan has created.

It absolutely is a tough spot we are in.

 

[ShaneFalco]

The question is, what if the assembled core doesn’t grow into what you want? Is he willing to change?

Nope by all accounts. He'll stake his (short) career on it. Based on success he's had in other leagues. Ffs what a shit show

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

The question is, what if the assembled core doesn’t grow into what you want? Is he willing to change?
And what if as we said, many issues lie with the allocation of half the Cap. Is he willing to fix that. Or even consider that?

Are they looking at all possibilities or do they think they are just unlucky, the guys will learn? Why didn’t MacKinnon/Duchene/O’Reilly or Thornton/Marleau just learn?

Are they seeing what they want to like many people here. Not everything is bad, but not everything is good. And I don’t just mean bottom 6.

Is half the Cap doing more harm than good? Who puts the team first?

At this point I think management thinks it mostly a mental block about some screw up happening (it does) more than they are not good enough. If they win 1 rd and are subsequently booted the next...I think you see major, major changes. I see them giving the players a chance to prove them wrong with the mental thing before blowing things up.

One poster a while back...I think it was @Stephen said it best when he said that the Leafs feel it's just inevitable that they will win. That's a problem because the 2010's Canucks along with the Sharks etc. proved that it isn't in fact inevitable that you will win something. It's almost entitlement at this point...they did the hard stuff, now its just supposed to happen because...it just is.

 

[ShaneFalco]

he might have passed the tests, but he has failed the exam

I was on his side originally and even liked the Keefe hiring. I was wrong. Hes too set on his way and the whole "they care deeply" crap - seriously?!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I think the jury is still out on whether Dubas knows what he's doing when it comes to building a championship culture with killer instinct. He's still a young executive and I would have a hard time believing he's hip to all the old savvy insights someone whose been through the playoff battles for decades would. (i.e. can he tell the difference between a Wayne Simmonds and a Corey Perry).

Alex Anthopolous had to figure it out and supplement his Jays roster which produced the 2015 and 2016 runs and later took his learning to winning a World Series in Atlanta. I don't want to play the lazy repeat from history game but this next phase is kind of both treading water and seeing if Dubas is getting his education in the game re: chemistry, team construction, goaltending, etc. I think we just need to stay the course a bit more.

I think he can tell the difference, but was expecting a different Simmonds. He does play a taxing game, but he was still in his early 30's, would be joining a good team, and I think they expected a guy who could reasonably provide 30 points and play 2PP as a net-front guy. He looked like he could do that for two and a half weeks last year, and the rest of the time, he was pretty much just an enforcer.

He doesn't really seem interested in playing a skill game anymore, and I think we are done with him (at least on the Leafs).

I am hoping Dubas gets away from trying to build a championship culture with killer instinct though. Going after killer instinct is when things started going south. Get back to guys who play fast, crisp, and work hard. Fortunately, those are the kinds of guys that Dubas liked to breed when he was Marlies GM, and that has continued with a lot of the guys brought in since he has left.

 

[Stephen]

I think he can tell the difference, but was expecting a different Simmonds. He does play a taxing game, but he was still in his early 30's, would be joining a good team, and I think they expected a guy who could reasonably provide 30 points and play 2PP as a net-front guy. He looked like he could do that for two and a half weeks last year, and the rest of the time, he was pretty much just an enforcer.

He doesn't really seem interested in playing a skill game anymore, and I think we are done with him (at least on the Leafs).

I am hoping Dubas gets away from trying to build a championship culture with killer instinct though. Going after killer instinct is when things started going south. Get back to guys who play fast, crisp, and work hard. Fortunately, those are the kinds of guys that Dubas liked to breed when he was Marlies GM, and that has continued with a lot of the guys brought in since he has left.

I think the idea of adding killer instinct was the correct approach, if only to spark that winning swagger in the core players. But the problem seems to be they didn't identify the right supporting cast: too old, too banged up, not able to play the integrated skill game, and I'd say the competitive drive of a lot our guys is below average. Plus we just don't have the high end blueline of a team like Colorado to really have that skill horsepower from the back end.

 

[LeafEgo]

I think the jury is still out on whether Dubas knows what he's doing when it comes to building a championship culture with killer instinct. He's still a young executive and I would have a hard time believing he's hip to all the old savvy insights someone whose been through the playoff battles for decades would. (i.e. can he tell the difference between a Wayne Simmonds and a Corey Perry).

This one is concerning. Building a championship culture and projecting that leadership doesn't seem like something you figure out in a year or two.

It's not the same learning curve as say: Let's strip all physicality out of the team and see what happens. Whoops. Ok lets put some back in next year.

 

[Stephen]

This one is concerning. Building a championship culture and projecting that leadership doesn't seem like something you figure out in a year or two.

It's not the same learning curve as say: Let's strip all physicality out of the team and see what happens. Whoops. Ok lets put some back in next year.

I'm around the same age as Dubas in a completely different profession, so maybe I'm projecting a bit. But when you're coming up, what is your approach to your job? Are you learning your craft and being a student of game, or are you jumping in to be a disruptor and innovator, trying to beat the old masters by finding the hack? Obviously, it's going to be a blend of both no matter what you do. But the Dubas project has always had a big ego component to it and as much as we're waiting on Matthews and Marner to learn to win, we're also waiting for Dubas to figure out how to build a resilient winner.

 

[ToneDog]

Lol imagine blaming Lou for not signing Nylander early while he was here because the new GM with training wheels was bent over. Unless Lou was bent over by the 3 amigos give it a rest already. Blame shanny for letting a sheepish kid negotiate with greedy wolves.

 

[ToneDog]

Lol imagine blaming Lou for not signing Nylander early while he was here because the new GM with training wheels was bent over. Unless Lou was bent over by the 3 amigos give it a rest already. Blame shanny for letting a sheepish kid negotiate with greedy wolves.

The same GM could have signed Marner early but waited, allowed him to play with JT and ultimately got bent over.

Must be Lou's fault for not training the kid right. Lol.

 

[Stephen]

The same GM could have signed Marner early but waited, allowed him to play with JT and ultimately got bent over.

Must be Lou's fault for not training the kid right. Lol.

Think Dubas also played Andreas Johnsson in a prime scoring role with Matthews for long stretches and then had to pay him over $3 million.

 

[Racer88]

But cap wise we have to wait until Tavares hits UFA again. So that's 3 years. So for next 3 years, we have to go through the motions.

Yup, that’s my concern

 

[hamzarocks]

I think it has more to do with he is exactly what we are looking for and we gave him up for something we have a surplus of. I would have been okay with trading Marchment if it was a similar type of player management thought had more upside. But it was for Malgin who was no better than Dimitro or Petan.

I just hope we don’t make the same mistake with Sandin. It feels like they are going to trade him. I hope if they do it’s for a need. Slightly bigger defenseman on the back end of a quality Center.

Seems like JT Miller for Sandin + is going to happen

Jt Miller trade requires the 2nd piece will probably be better than Sandin is as the main piece here

I'd be delighted if we got Miller, extended him right away to 9M deal which kicks next year and give the clear cut signal to one of 16, 88, and 91 that this is your final season as a leaf if you don't perform in the playoffs.

Whoever has the worst playoffs is moved (in JTs case you strip the C from him if he fails again and tell him to move)

We get Miller and I could see us winning a cup next year

 

[LeafEgo]

I'm around the same age as Dubas in a completely different profession, so maybe I'm projecting a bit. But when you're coming up, what is your approach to your job? Are you learning your craft and being a student of game, or are you jumping in to be a disruptor and innovator, trying to beat the old masters by finding the hack? Obviously, it's going to be a blend of both no matter what you do. But the Dubas project has always had a big ego component to it and as much as we're waiting on Matthews and Marner to learn to win, we're also waiting for Dubas to figure out how to build a resilient winner.

Sure, that's typically what you see from high potential contributors. But when you're at the top you live and die by that high stakes gamble - usually at least.

I dont blame Dubas but he wasnt ready and he wasnt the hockey savant as billed. Shanny is responsible for the last four years.

Anyways, at this point they have somehow cruised through what should be the worst of it, and gotten us to a point where it's now at least unclear what should be done.

 

[Gabriel426]

I'm not a big Dubas guy, but I think he's learning some hard lessons in hockey with each passing season and playoff failure, almost like the hockey equivalent of an Alex Anthopolous - who eventually delivered a World Series somewhere else. Question is do we want him to deliver a title somewhere else having botched the Shanaplan, or do we let him grow like the core members of the team as an executive? No right answer but this is the dynamic Brendan Shanahan has created.

1. You are assuming the core will mature into a Cup winning team, but the core could also be what they are now.
2. To me, replacing Dubas had more to do with trusting someone with the tough decisions on improving the team. The Shanaplan would be the same but it will a new person coming in and build on the current Leafs.
3. I think the Leafs is right there but there is also something about the top guys collectively that can't seem to move them forward as a group. I am not in the room thus I don't know what and who, but it could be AM and if it is AM, could Dubas make the hard decision.