Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[hotpaws]

Blackwell is worth a 3rd at the deadline, not my fault you have some personal issues with size and therefore are sensitive with that topic when it comes to hockey.

I'm assuming the value is close for 1st vs 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd. You can check if you'd like, there are ways to.

May want to research how buyouts work if you think finding a team to buyout a player is the same as someone taking a contract to hit the cap floor.

4th liners aren't worth a 3rd and i'll ask again why were you praising Dubie for not giving up our first in the Gio trade then turning around and saying two 2nds and a 3rd are it's equivalent when discussing what Lou gave up to dump Ladd ?

 

[notbias]

4th liners aren't worth a 3rd and i'll ask again why were you praising Dubie for not giving up our first in the Gio trade then turning around and saying two 2nds and a 3rd are it's equivalent when discussing what Lou gave up to dump Ladd ?

Definitely were some 3rd for 4th liners at the deadline, but just scrolling quickly a 4th seems to be the most consistent for a 4th liner.

If I praised that, shouldn't have, probably praised 2x2nd instead of a 1st since I assume Blackwell is the 3rd.

 

[ShaneFalco]

2 yr term vs 1 yr term and we'll see if they get the additional 2nd

also funny your now questioning which pkg of picks is more valuable when you were praising Dubas for only giving up two 2nds and a 3rd for Gio and a 4th line energy smurf and being able to keep his first

this is pretty much your standard take which is sad

Some peoples lives are so miserable they have to constantly defend failure

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Losing a player like Kadri for a return that has amounted to practically nothing is infuriating. The own rentals I understood why we didn’t trade them. But this is another feather in Dubas’ cap along with giving up the 13th pick and Jarvis to the Canes.

Trades like those are how to gut your team of depth 1O1.

 

[PromisedLand]

Dubas cost us Jarvis due to his incompetence . Teams know he's weak so they see how far they can push him and Dubie just caves . Lou wasn't perfect but there's no way he would have had to pay a 1st to dump Marleau or would have had Marleau dictate to him how he departed .

Lou moved Phaneuf's contract without adding or retaining. I am still wondering how the heck did he pull that off

 

[keonsbitterness]

interesting thought this gave me - regarding the back and forth about how players are held accountable in leafland and being traded away was stated a couple times was how kadri was held accountable

was there anything reported at the time after his second suspension and series loss that the leafs did anything to support kadri? sports psychologist, off ice classes, consultation, counselling etc.. anything at all?

Leafs have all that stuff. Whether Kadri used any of it, don't know.

 

[PromisedLand]

I like Dubas.... but he really hasn't passed the test. Hard not to make the playoffs with the core he inherited and he hasn't gotten any further in the postseason than anyone before him. The core players basically negotiated their own contracts even. We are all just excited about his draft picks... the rest has been bad and the picks can still turn out bad.

Come on man. Surely you are not talking about this upcoming draft now are ya?

Kyle's tenure has been a complete and utter debacle. It's astonishing to see how someone f***ed this up so much. My bet is Mikheyev will be the next guy playing for the Cup.

It is really tough to screw up especially when you are in a position to go nowhere but up with a team on the rise, plenty of assets, plenty of of capspace.... look at us now....

Its like when they put the trinity -> Batman, Superman and WonderWoman in the same movie. No way one could F it up; but they did

 

[PromisedLand]

Everyone seems to be debating the first pick that Dubas gave up to trade away Marleau he also traded a first pick for Foligno and we all know how that disaster played out

And a 4th for retention.

That season was a complete shitshow by Dubas.

- Rittich (3rd rounder), Riley Nash (6th?), Hutton (5th), traded Barabanov to sharks for a nobody (he put 39 pts in 70 games for the sharks this season)

 

[PromisedLand]

Sakic probably would have been fired for finishing last in 2015?? had he not been an Avalanche great. That bottoming out and the Duchene deal turned him from sad sack GM to the GM he is today. Maybe he sold his soul to the devil because he built one hell of a team. Hopefully he runs into cap hell soon because they could be the next Tampa.

couple years ago when Avs lost to Dallas, I think they would have won it all.

Avs were hit by injuries. They were playing their third string goalie, regulars on teh front and the back end were out with injuries. Counting that season as wasted opportunity is not right IMO

Par, no. They aren't that far away though either. Better coach and goaltending puts them much closer.

Where is our Makar?

Nylander/Marner don't count btw. and Marner is freakiin' 2M+ more expensive for about the same term btw without Norris (for him it would be Ross/Rocket/Lindsay/Hart) or Smyth

 

[Antropovsky]

Come on man. Surely you are not talking about this upcoming draft now are ya?

View attachment 562809



It is really tough to screw up especially when you are in a position to go nowhere but up with a team on the rise, plenty of assets, plenty of of capspace.... look at us now....

Its like when they put the trinity -> Batman, Superman and WonderWoman in the same movie. No way one could F it up; but they did

Definitely less excitement this year but his past picks have seemingly been exciting. Robertson, Knies, Niemela, Sandin. Amirov. Without them.

 

[Stephen]

Blackwell is worth a 3rd at the deadline, not my fault you have some personal issues with size and therefore are sensitive with that topic when it comes to hockey.

I'm assuming the value is close for 1st vs 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd. You can check if you'd like, there are ways to.

May want to research how buyouts work if you think finding a team to buyout a player is the same as someone taking a contract to hit the cap floor.

Colin Blackwell was okay for what he was but I would say if Toronto went out and got the 6'3" version of him, that player would have brought an extra weapon to the roster.

 

[notbias]

Colin Blackwell was okay for what he was but I would say if Toronto went out and got the 6'3" version of him, that player would have brought an extra weapon to the roster.

what is a 6'3" version of him? Alex Tuch? I can't think of it, but Blackwell is skilled enough and relentless, assuming the same but bigger would be someone like him. Not a cheap acquisition.

 

[Stephen]

what is a 6'3" version of him? Alex Tuch? I can't think of it, but Blackwell is skilled enough and relentless, assuming the same but bigger would be someone like him. Not a cheap acquisition.

I don't want to say Nick Paul cause I'm sure we're all extremely tired of that name by now. But the acquisition cost on that wasn't too high at Joseph and a 4th.

Blackwell was actually a more productive player on Seattle but again, come playoff time do you need a Blackwell to skillfully make area passes and move the puck cleanly, or do you just need a bull to go through some guys?

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

i've given an answer multiple times but since i think your a decent poster i'll repeat it one more time

-Lou dumped Ladd who had 2 yrs left and was a worse contract for less so it's obvious teams feel Dubas is a weak bitch and ask for the moon from him
-Dubie could have bridged some or all of the rfa's
-Dubie could have dealt Kap and/or Mango instead of waiting until the following year

basically there were options other than just to cough up a first to move a 1yr dump

I can't see many posters on here being happy if Dubas had held onto Marleau for one year wasting a roster spot or cap space. I know I wouldn't.

I dont remember much talk of the big 3 willing to do bridge deals other than Marner asking for the richest bridge deal in history.

In hindsight we could've got max value for AJ had we traded him that offseason but then he had an injury riddled season that tanked his value. Kap we got an overpay from Rutherford, getting a 15th overall pick plus a B prospect. That was arguably the best trade of the offseason, so it's not like we waited too long on that one. Would we have been as competitive without those 2 and Marleau here for his last year? Maybe, maybe not.

Good on Lou for getting rid of that Ladd contract. They still paid a hefty price of two 2nds and a 3rd though. The Coyotes do these deals almost every year taking on cap dumps in order to reach the cap floor and are a team that's always rebuilding, so they don't care about absorbing these contracts. We were a cap strapped team that was looking for a deep run and trying to gain cap space. We had a player that gave us limited trade partners. Did Carolina bend us over? Sure. They had the leverage.

 

[PromisedLand]

Colin Blackwell was okay for what he was but I would say if Toronto went out and got the 6'3" version of him, that player would have brought an extra weapon to the roster.

gotta be more specific man. We have/had the giraffe but....

 

[Menzinger]

Lou moved Phaneuf's contract without adding or retaining. I am still wondering how the heck did he pull that off

The Leafs took back almost 10 mil in contracts from the Sens

 

[nuck]

And a 4th for retention.

That season was a complete shitshow by Dubas.

- Rittich (3rd rounder), Riley Nash (6th?), Hutton (5th), traded Barabanov to sharks for a nobody (he put 39 pts in 70 games for the sharks this season)

Unfortunately I feel like he felt scalded after that and was a bit reluctant to load up this year which, given the closeness of the fail, was probably not the right choice.

I kind of think he will load up next season, not to save his job which is apparently for life, but to vindicate his vision. Admit it, if Campbell didn't suck balls, or a couple of the refs calls went the other way, its the Leafs who advance and with Girard caved in, Kadri MIA, and the Avs goalies looking sketchy they are right there. Okay that may only be the future in Kyles mind, but it was possible if Campbell hadn't wilted, that's not in doubt. KD will open the pantry and bring something for sure. No .890 tandem going into next seasons playoff.

The only problem is, if he doesn't put Willie in play then solving the goalie issue plus making the skaters better at the same time is tough. No quality UFA option is affordable with Willies $7M and the best Leaf assets all go to get the goalie. No cost controlled position players coming back, and they fill out the lineup with bargain bin talent. Its going to be an interesting next few weeks.

 

[Americanadian]

Good on Lou for getting rid of that Ladd contract. They still paid a hefty price of two 2nds and a 3rd though.

The Ladd deal also had 2 years left. The 2021 2nd was also 60th OA which was known at the time.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don't want to say Nick Paul cause I'm sure we're all extremely tired of that name by now. But the acquisition cost on that wasn't too high at Joseph and a 4th.

Blackwell was actually a more productive player on Seattle but again, come playoff time do you need a Blackwell to skillfully make area passes and move the puck cleanly, or do you just need a bull to go through some guys?

I don't get something and maybe you can give your insight. Is it just the type of players we have that they don't go all "Bull through a china shop" or is taught? I really wonder because it seems when guys with a reputation come here...they slowly start playing like the others and stop being aggressive. Look at Muzzin...I know he has had some injuries...but after a while he seemed to stop trucking people all together. Same with slap shots...Muzzin used to load up and blast them when he first got here...and now its sporadic. I can't quite figure out what is going on.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Explain this one to me. Marleau deal was set to expire in 2020. Brodie was signed in 2020.

The Leafs also lost Kapanen and Johnsson anyways (for the best because those contracts also didn't look too good this season). All in all they got 1 season of Kapanen/Johnsson (21 goals/57 points between them) for Jarvis. They would have been better off keeping Marleau and his 10 goals/20 points and just playing Engvall higher in the lineup OR giving Marchment or Moore a higher spot in the lineup. All 3 of those players were better and cheaper than Kapanen/Johnsson this year.

The Leafs could have run

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Moore
Engvall-Spezza-Marchment
Gauthier

Rielly-Ceci
Muzzin-Holl
Sandin-Dermott

Andersen
?

Then they would be looking at this team in the playoff this year:

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Moore-Tavares-Nylander
Marchment-Kadri-Jarvis
Engvall-Kampf-Mikheyev

Blackwell-Spezza-Kase as extras

Rielly-Lyubushkin
Muzzin-Brodie
Gio-Liljegren

?
Mrazek

I already addressed my Brodie mistake.

These lineups are easy to put together with the benefit of hindsight. Marchment broke out 2 yrs later at the age of 27 and no one saw the season he had coming. Moore, the same thing at 27 yrs old. Moore also landed us Campbell. Had that trade not happened, who else would we have had starting in net this year and backup the year before? Kadri was traded because he cost us our playoff series 2 yrs in a row and then went on to do the same thing for the Avs. He won the cup this year. Good for him. He finally smartend up but it took him a few years. What if he had got suspended here a 3rd yr in a row? Would people be happy if we had kept him?

You can't honestly believe that posters here would've been pleased with those lineups 2 yrs ago with where they were in their development. Marchment, Moore and Engvall playing bigger minutes 2 yrs ago were not better than Kap and AJ on the roster.

I find it funny that a lot of the posters here that have been critical of giving up Jarvis in the Marleau deal are likely all the same people that would've been complaining about Dubas drafting a 5'9 winger with a high pick and not knowing anything about him 2 yrs ago lol.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Trade? Do you mean Marleau or another trade?

The Marleau Trade. That contract and the NTC left us with limited suitors.

Everything else cap wise like the contracts to the big 4 and everyone else on the roster is on Dubas. The Marleau one I don't fault Dubas for. That **** up I purely look at Lou.

 

[Americanadian]

I already addressed my Brodie mistake.

These lineups are easy to put together with the benefit of hindsight. Marchment broke out 2 yrs later at the age of 27 and no one saw the season he had coming. Moore, the same thing at 27 yrs old. Moore also landed us Campbell. Had that trade not happened, who else would we have had starting in net this year and backup the year before? Kadri was traded because he cost us our playoff series 2 yrs in a row and then went on to do the same thing for the Avs. He won the cup this year. Good for him. He finally smartend up but it took him a few years. What if he had got suspended here a 3rd yr in a row? Would people be happy if we had kept him?

You can't honestly believe that posters here would've been pleased with those lineups 2 yrs ago with where they were in their development. Marchment, Moore and Engvall playing bigger minutes 2 yrs ago were not better than Kap and AJ on the roster.

I find it funny that a lot of the posters here that have been critical of giving up Jarvis in the Marleau deal are likely all the same people that would've been complaining about Dubas drafting a 5'9 winger with a high pick and not knowing anything about him 2 yrs ago lol.

Marchment could have filled the 4th line role I penciled him in for during the 19-20 season.

Trevor Moore played on the 3rd line at the beginning of 19-20 while Hyman was out and he looked good. He got injured and came back and was relegated to the 4th line because of Johnsson. If they don't get Campbell/Clifford they save 2 3rd's and Moore. Campbell has been 46th in the league in GSAx/60 since he joined the Leafs. I think they could have found better goaltending.

Trading Kadri was very shortsighted given the contract situation. The Leafs won just as many round without him as they did with him. He was the only player who pushed back against Boston.

Jarvis was rumored to be Dubas' preferred pick on draft day 2020 and I personally liked the pick because he performed so well compared to his team. I can see the backlash though. Even Mercer/Schneider would have been slam dunks at that draft. Imagine 2 of Jarvis/Mercer/Schneider.

 

[andora]

Leafs have all that stuff. Whether Kadri used any of it, don't know.

i guess that's what i'm asking - if anything came out about Kadri using any of that, leafs management leading him to that

do it or your gone.. anything

Jarvis was rumored to be Dubas' preferred pick on draft day 2020 and I personally liked the pick because he performed so well compared to his team. I can see the backlash though. Even Mercer/Schneider would have been slam dunks at that draft. Imagine 2 of Jarvis/Mercer/Schneider.

Schneider - what a perfect partner long term for sandin

 

[Voodoo Child]

Marchment has never played a full season, and he missed time in the playoffs too, and I don’t expect him to ever exceed his numbers this year. I’ll be happy that Florida can’t pay him but I sure wouldn’t want to commit the 4+ mil his agent will seek.

Seth Jarvis, yeah that one hurts but remember that Dubas was fixing Lou’s f***up there. The smart thing to do would have been giving Marleau 2x9, or any amount of money that would have made him shirk the third year.

Kadri as well, however his time was clearly up in the organization. I’m glad that he got his ring.

I think there’s little the Leafs can do this summer without making a big move, such as a Nylander trade. Of course I want to keep Willy but if the right player becomes available…

 

[Americanadian]

Schneider - what a perfect partner long term for sandin

Dubas could have had him for the 15th. I get that Amirov has/had great potential (I saw him compared to Palat and Kucherov on draft day) but good/big RHD are becoming the rarest asset in hockey - skilled wingers being the most abundant.