Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[Trapper]

But they care deeply and a rookie GM stakes his career on the core. He won't even consider another coach it seems.

If the core and the build isn’t the right one, you can’t hide from it.

You can’t expected stats it to victory, you can’t paper push it to greatness. You can hold onto everything and still get nowhere.

So again I ask, what makes people think we are the Colorado of today and not several years ago.

What did Colorado achieve with MacKinnon, O’Reilly, Duchene, Stastny in terms of playoff success? Compared to us?

 

[egd27]

If we had kept Marleau and had him making 6M and doing nothing on the 4th line, we lose 1 or both of Johnsson and Kap and we don't sign TJ Brodie who has likely been our best D man the last 2 years. We end up being not as competitive because we weren't willing to give up the only offer we receive and you have a wasted year.

But we did lose both Johnsson and Kap..
Marleau's contract would have expired before they signed Brodie (July 2020)
The 2019-20 was a wasted season because they didn't have the stones to dump Babcock after 2019 and get a real coach.

So there's that.

 

[ShaneFalco]

If the core and the build isn’t the right one, you can’t hide from it.

That's just it. Unwilling to even consider the team may not be built properly because they do well in the regular season. Tired of having training wheels at every level

 

[Gary Nylund]

Tavares could be O’Reilly, Nylander Duchene for example. With 6 years of not even winning a round and UFA in 2 years, this team might need the overhaul for the future. In order for Matthews to be the MacKinnon if the future, all that might need to change until you find the formula. That’s what happens with this level of failure. We aren’t talking 1 game away from the Cup with this core. We are talking consistent self destruct.

You mean if we win game 7 against TB, you don't think we win the cup?

 

[hotpaws]

If the core and the build isn’t the right one, you can’t hide from it.

You can’t expected stats it to victory, you can’t paper push it to greatness. You can hold onto everything and still get nowhere.

So again I ask, what makes people think we are the Colorado of today and not several years ago.

What did Colorado achieve with MacKinnon, O’Reilly, Duchene, Stastny in terms of playoff success? Compared to us?

we've been Chi/Pitt/Wash/Tampa and now Colorado as well as Yzerman era Det , so the question is who are we going to be next ? hopefully not San Jose

 

[Trapper]

You mean if we win game 7 against TB, you don't think we win the cup?

You mean if we win game 7 against Montreal, we win the Cup?

There is no benefit of the doubt for me with this team.
Fool me once, shame on me.
Fool me 6 times, what???? 6 times?
Seriously, you wouldn’t fool me that many times would you?

 

[FiveHoleo]

Dubas shouldn't be getting any passing grades until he does something. I'm sorry, but having the best player in the league and not being able to win a playoff series after so many attempts doesn't scream success to me. It just doesn't. It's successful for the Leafs brand that they are competitive, the building is full and its every bit the cash cow it should be. If you own the team you're happy, which is why he's still there. If you care about actually winning, you're watching Kadri parade that cup around after Dubas decided to trade him based on the opinion he was a liability to the team. Great eye for a winner there, Kyle.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Marleau and brodie didnt overlap if i remember correctly if marleau stayed his last year

And kapanen and johnsson just my opinion should have been traded earlier than they were to capitalize on their potential while being flawed players

This is a tough discussion because the tavares contract hovers above anything

I am on the side that does not sign tavares and then of course that changes things quite a bit about marleau and kadri and so on.

You are correct sir. Brodie was signed the following offseason. I thought it was the same summer.

The Tavares signing definitely started the lopsided cap allocation.

If we had not signed Tavares and just continued on our path of building I would've been completely on board but having said that, I was like everyone else on here who was thrilled we landed him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

But we did lose both Johnsson and Kap..
Marleau's contract would have expired before they signed Brodie (July 2020)
The 2019-20 was a wasted season because they didn't have the stones to dump Babcock after 2019 and get a real coach.

So there's that.

We didn't "lose" Johnsson and Kap, we traded them.

You mean if we win game 7 against Montreal, we win the Cup?

There is no benefit of the doubt for me with this team.
Fool me once, shame on me.
Fool me 6 times, what???? 6 times?

I was kidding. Though I do believe if we get past TB this year we could easily have made it to the finals. Hard to see us beating Colorado though.

 

[nuck]

Some are making a big deal about Patty's NMC...You don't think Lou would have just said he will sit him all season if he doesn't agree to a trade and kill his iron man streak? There were ways to get around the deals last season without sending a 1st to the Canes...we just didn't have the right guy at the helm.

Lou wouldn't have signed JT so Marleau would have finished his deal here. He spent to his budget of the time and there was no issue. Dubas actually spent to his budget at the time with JT as well since nobody was expecting him to get railed like that by the big 3.

I do think JT was the issue but only a mistake in hindsight as you couldn't reasonably predict all the events since then. I thought it was a waste of cap space at the time for another sniping forward but only from the standpoint of future adds, not that they would be buried by 4 forwards. As to how Lou might have gotten out of the Marleau deal if he had to, who can say? He was better connected with the old boys network for sure and was not responsible for setting a new standard for paying RFAs so he could have had more options so maybe. Or maybe not.

 

[hotpaws]

That's just it. Unwilling to even consider the team may not be built properly because they do well in the regular season. Tired of having training wheels at every level

i'm sure they have considered it but the core piece to trade has a nmc , will be 32 before the season starts , is regressing and has 3 yrs left at 11m

you don't trade talents like M and M at their age , Willie can be moved but he only make 7m so it's not like you can add 2 high quality pieces for that price and moving him for depth pieces won't improve us

so this is why Dubie and the gang keep saying they believe in the core , there's really nothing else they can say other than this

 

[Trapper]

i'm sure they have considered it but the core piece to trade has a nmc , will be 32 before the season starts , is regressing and has 3 yrs left at 11m

you don't trade talents like M and M at their age , Willie can be moved but he only make 7m so it's not like you can add 2 high quality pieces for that price and moving him for depth pieces won't improve us

so this is why Dubie and the gang keep saying they believe in the core , there's really nothing else they can say other than this

You have to wait Tavares out, but in the meantime, maybe you can move a Nylander for a different core piece. Like a Horvat or Boeser from Vancouver. Maybe even sign them to a 6 year deal for the current Nylander salary of 7 mil, and not worry about the 2 years to UFA.
Or, you move the forward for a long term goalie or staple D.
Prepare for the 3rd wave now and change the dynamic.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

yup your right there were zero other option since any other path wouldn't allowed us to build this dominant post season team and i do like how you ignored having to trade Kap an Mango the following off season due to Dubies cap mismanagement

now explain to me how it was a genius move to trade a 1st plus plus for an injured washed up Foligno

See, you didn't have an answer. Why would I have to comment on moves that were made a year after the Marleau trade? The point was that we traded Marleau so we could keep Johnsson and Kap that season.

I didn't like the Foligno trade so there isn't any debate there. I liked the player but thought the price was bad.

The key is to not leave yourself with '0 other options', IMO.

Well that specific trade is on Lou. Everything else cap wise is on Dubas

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

But we did lose both Johnsson and Kap..
Marleau's contract would have expired before they signed Brodie (July 2020)
The 2019-20 was a wasted season because they didn't have the stones to dump Babcock after 2019 and get a real coach.

So there's that.

Yes the following offseason.

I had the Brodie timeline messed up. That was the following year as well, yes.

I agree Babcock should've been gone. I might be wrong but wasn't Dubas wanting him gone that offseason but Shanny vetoed it and we fired him a months into that following season? Thought insiders had been saying that.

 

[Antropovsky]

Would the Leafs have picked Jarvis? Even if they did, we don’t know that he’d even be in the Lineup yet.

Still a significant asset lost

 

[BallardEra]

I think they can win with this core but the problem is getting the right depth players to fit under the cap. Part of the problem is what they're paying the core and what happened to the flat cap due to Covid.

Leafs this past year lacked the playoff type of players on their bottom six. That needs to be addressed as does goaltending and once again it'll come down to cap issues.

They will definitely move Mrazek out to get some cap space.

 

[hotpaws]

See, you didn't have an answer. Why would I have to comment on moves that were made a year after the Marleau trade? The point was that we traded Marleau so we could keep Johnsson and Kap that season.

I didn't like the Foligno trade so there isn't any debate there. I liked the player but thought the price was bad.

i've given an answer multiple times but since i think your a decent poster i'll repeat it one more time

-Lou dumped Ladd who had 2 yrs left and was a worse contract for less so it's obvious teams feel Dubas is a weak bitch and ask for the moon from him
-Dubie could have bridged some or all of the rfa's
-Dubie could have dealt Kap and/or Mango instead of waiting until the following year

basically there were options other than just to cough up a first to move a 1yr dump

 

[Americanadian]

If we had kept Marleau and had him making 6M and doing nothing on the 4th line, we lose 1 or both of Johnsson and Kap and we don't sign TJ Brodie who has likely been our best D man the last 2 years.

Explain this one to me. Marleau deal was set to expire in 2020. Brodie was signed in 2020.

The Leafs also lost Kapanen and Johnsson anyways (for the best because those contracts also didn't look too good this season). All in all they got 1 season of Kapanen/Johnsson (21 goals/57 points between them) for Jarvis. They would have been better off keeping Marleau and his 10 goals/20 points and just playing Engvall higher in the lineup OR giving Marchment or Moore a higher spot in the lineup. All 3 of those players were better and cheaper than Kapanen/Johnsson this year.

The Leafs could have run

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Moore
Engvall-Spezza-Marchment
Gauthier

Rielly-Ceci
Muzzin-Holl
Sandin-Dermott

Andersen
?

Then they would be looking at this team in the playoff this year:

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Moore-Tavares-Nylander
Marchment-Kadri-Jarvis
Engvall-Kampf-Mikheyev

Blackwell-Spezza-Kase as extras

Rielly-Lyubushkin
Muzzin-Brodie
Gio-Liljegren

?
Mrazek

 

[ShaneFalco]

Leafs this past year lacked the playoff type of players on their bottom six. That needs to be addressed as does goaltending and once again it'll come down to cap issues.

They will definitely move Mrazek out to get some cap space.

Thanks to "we can and we will Dubas"
What a waste of prime years. Mrazek will cost to move out

You have to wait Tavares out, but in the meantime, maybe you can move a Nylander for a different core piece. Like a Horvat or Boeser from Vancouver. Maybe even sign them to a 6 year deal for the current Nylander salary of 7 mil, and not worry about the 2 years to UFA.
Or, you move the forward for a long term goalie or staple D.
Prepare for the 3rd wave now and change the dynamic.

Yeah I just can't go with the "we're stuck" and can't move anyone because it may not work out. However, I don't want Dubas making any big trades

 

[keonsbitterness]

Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't aimed at the people saying that he was a liability playing through his injury, or the people saying that he was a liability after his 3rd suspension in 4 seasons, or the people who sent him death threats this playoffs. I'm sure, in his moment winning the cup, he's still seething about a fully justified 3-year-old trade.

Look at you pretending you're an amateur psychologist!

How can you possibly know you it was "fully justified" in his mind?

 

[ACC1224]

See, you didn't have an answer. Why would I have to comment on moves that were made a year after the Marleau trade? The point was that we traded Marleau so we could keep Johnsson and Kap that season.

I didn't like the Foligno trade so there isn't any debate there. I liked the player but thought the price was bad.


Well that specific trade is on Lou. Everything else cap wise is on Dubas

Trade? Do you mean Marleau or another trade?

 

[andora]

Look at you pretending you're an amateur psychologist!

How can you possibly know you it was "fully justified" in his mind?

interesting thought this gave me - regarding the back and forth about how players are held accountable in leafland and being traded away was stated a couple times was how kadri was held accountable

was there anything reported at the time after his second suspension and series loss that the leafs did anything to support kadri? sports psychologist, off ice classes, consultation, counselling etc.. anything at all?

 

[notbias]

I know hindsight is 20/20, but many people said a few years ago move Nylander for a solid D.
So we sink a little 3 years ago until we rise stronger.
What if we had a Pesce and a 1st, ride out Marleau last year for the additional 1st, don’t trade 1sts for guys like Foligno when you haven’t won a round, traded Kapanen for the 1st, etc. We could be very different with our own additional impact draft picks. Count those additional picks up. We have none of that in the lineup.

maybe, but also draft picks in the 20+ range aren't really too impactful. You can find a bunch that are, but I'd say the majority of them are probably closer to bust than impact player.

Sandin was the last 20+ I could think of that we drafted, and so far he or Miller is the best from the 20+ in the first round.

 

[notbias]

-Lou dumped Ladd who had 2 yrs left and was a worse contract for less so it's obvious teams feel Dubas is a weak bitch and ask for the moon from him

NMC vs M-NTC
buyout from a team vs help team hit the cap floor.
1st vs 2nd, 2nd, 3rd (not even sure the 1st is worth more)

This has to be one of the worst takes from you, and that says A LOT.

 

[notbias]

2 yr term vs 1 yr term and we'll see if they get the additional 2nd

also funny your now questioning which pkg of picks is more valuable when you were praising Dubas for only giving up two 2nds and a 3rd for Gio and a 4th line energy smurf and being able to keep his first

this is pretty much your standard take which is sad

Blackwell is worth a 3rd at the deadline, not my fault you have some personal issues with size and therefore are sensitive with that topic when it comes to hockey.

I'm assuming the value is close for 1st vs 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd. You can check if you'd like, there are ways to.

May want to research how buyouts work if you think finding a team to buyout a player is the same as someone taking a contract to hit the cap floor.