Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[socko]

Agreed. IMO Ehlers was the comparable for Nylander.

$6M X 7 with no signing bonuses for Ehlers

Add the 6% Cap inflation (a bit less if he wants up front money) and it's somewhere between 6.25-6.35 for 7 years.

Ehlers was the no-brainer comparable. If Nylander wanted $8 million, he should have sat the year. I get that Dubas probably considered it a win to get his cap hit down to $7 for the remainder of the contract. It wasn't. It sent the wrong message. And the Marner contract was worse.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I'd really like to know how they'd stack up against the two teams I saw battle for every inch of ice last night. Only way to really know is to get past round #1 and they haven't. Until then all bets are off IMO.



Ripped him every night he played like ass. Haven't since he figured it out but he still takes too many nights off for my liking. But when he is on, he is dynamic.

You could seriously make an argument that Willy is the most talented over all. He skates better than anyone. Has a wicked shot...can stick handle and move around D-men. The problem is between his ears. He doesn't seem to want to maximize it very often. So, to me that means in his last year before UFA he is going to make Kadri (this season) look like a bum because he is going to want to get paid big time. Do you keep him as an own rental knowing that will be coming or trade him now and get something...that is the big question.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

It's almost like this team needed a President/GM combo who would de-emphasize the individual in favour of team goals. It's almost like this team needed a coach who the players might not particularly like but who would push them to be more substantial hardened pros on a team rather than individuals thinking about their next epic goal celebration.

They still have not learned anything all these years later. Last year Dubas said there would be no dress code to start the season. How did the players reward him? By playing like crap for the first 10 games and then he went back to the old dress code. That just shows you cannot pre-reward this group of players expecting them to pay you back...it just doesn't work with this team for whatever reason. So pre-paying them large amounts of money in advance did not result in the players giving back with higher efforts IMO.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I can see him back east. Montreal, Ottawa or Buffalo, maybe Detroit not sure if any of them make the playoffs though.

Agreed...he is just going to look to cash in at this point after winning a cup. Buyer beware with Kadri. I can see him going to Arizona if they will pay him.

 

[Gabriel426]

Only people that would deny the Marleau debacle isn’t in the top 3 Dubas bad moves are those that don’t believe he’s made at least 3 bad moves.

Or Dubas made three or more bad moves than the Marleau deal, lol.

They still have not learned anything all these years later. Last year Dubas said there would be no dress code to start the season. How did the players reward him? By playing like crap for the first 10 games and then he went back to the old dress code. That just shows you cannot pre-reward this group of players expecting them to pay you back...it just doesn't work with this team for whatever reason. So pre-paying them large amounts of money in advance did not result in the players giving back with higher efforts IMO.

Did they really went back to the old dress code? I really didn’t know that.

 

[Racer88]

What are the odds he signs with a team we meet in the 1st round next year?

Knowing our luck 100%. Lol

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Literally nobody thought what we needed was an offensive D rover, painfully soft and a complete defensive liability. People could argue the logic of trading Naz because we were deep at Center, but that asset for what we received back was a complete head scratcher.

Pretty much. I couldn't figure out what role Kerfoot played. I never knew someone on D could be softer than Gardiner, and John Michael Liles. I don't think I ever saw Barrie win a 50/50 battle as a Leaf.

 

[andora]

I think he was overpaid for the cap hit signed, my benchmark was 6.5, but thats a different topic than whether our GM caved or not.

And at the end of the day, bickering about ~500k 4 years after the fact doesnt sound like a good time to me.

i've seen a few posts like this over the past couple weeks. 500K there, 1 million there - 2 million over there.. it all adds up and affects us. point is you do bicker about that extra 500K, 1 million 2 million etc.. it all matters. it's like the poker player at the table that just keeps letting his stack dwindle over blinds and flop calls but makes no moves

I know hindsight is 20/20, but many people said a few years ago move Nylander for a solid D.
So we sink a little 3 years ago until we rise stronger.
What if we had a Pesce and a 1st, ride out Marleau last year for the additional 1st, don’t trade 1sts for guys like Foligno when you haven’t won a round, traded Kapanen for the 1st, etc. We could be very different with our own additional impact draft picks. Count those additional picks up. We have none of that in the lineup.

absolutely - you make those bold moves from strengths and it can open up so more. leafs had such a well rounded forward depth you can easily look back now and see all the different dynamics of forwards now gone - brown, moore, grundstrom, and dare i say hyman

 

[DarkKnight]

Pretty much. I couldn't figure out what role Kerfoot played. I never knew someone on D could be softer than Gardiner, and John Michael Liles. I don't think I ever saw Barrie win a 50/50 battle as a Leaf.

He was the softest D man we’ve had. Recall too, even when the D core was injured down the stretch, Keefe still couldn’t put the vet Barrie in on D zone coverages because he was that bad, literally still had to shelter him. Whether you wanted Kadri traded or not, nobody was clammoring for a rover D man, with little heart and zero defensive acumen.

 

[Gallagbi]

i've seen a few posts like this over the past couple weeks. 500K there, 1 million there - 2 million over there.. it all adds up and affects us. point is you do bicker about that extra 500K, 1 million 2 million etc.. it all matters. it's like the poker player at the table that just keeps letting his stack dwindle over blinds and flop calls...

Im a poster on message board, 4 years after signing. Im not Kyle Dubas.

 

[andora]

Im a poster on message board, 4 years after signing. Im not Kyle Dubas.

me too?

 

[Gallagbi]

me too?

So me bickering about the 500k on a message board 5 years after the fact isnt a good time

 

[andora]

So me bickering about the 500k on a message board 5 years after the fact isnt a good time

ok?

apologies for the frivolity in my enthusiasm on the chat board

 

[ACC1224]

So me bickering about the 500k on a message board 5 years after the fact isnt a good time

There is no statute of limitations on bickering anything Leaf related.

 

[Go4soda]

Must be a tough time to be gifted 3 generational forwards and an upper tier puck moving D.

I feel really bad for him he had to come into a job as NHL GM and negotiate contracts, no nhl GM has ever had to resign an RFA

That's why he signed Matthews and Marner to horrific deals (5 years for AM was stupid) and gave a nmc to Matthews the last year of his I guess

it’s going to be tough from now on for Dubas to try and create an “internal cap structure” culture now, with the new muskoka 5 firmly in place.

 

[egd27]

There is no statute of limitations on bickering anything Leaf related.

Very true.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

i've seen a few posts like this over the past couple weeks. 500K there, 1 million there - 2 million over there.. it all adds up and affects us. point is you do bicker about that extra 500K, 1 million 2 million etc.. it all matters. it's like the poker player at the table that just keeps letting his stack dwindle over blinds and flop calls but makes no moves



absolutely - you make those bold moves from strengths and it can open up so more. leafs had such a well rounded forward depth you can easily look back now and see all the different dynamics of forwards now gone - brown, moore, grundstrom, and dare i say hyman

The problem with Dubas fanboys is we are never in a good enough position to trade someone. It's either "Willy would be a net loss if you traded him...he is too valuable." or "Kerfoot is pretty much useless to anyone else..might as well keep him"...

We keep doing this over and over. Being afraid of making a trade in case we lose it is not the way to do things. You can't be Burke and do stupid stuff...but come on man...you can trade Willy and get cap relief and different players coming back that could help. Sitting on your hands because you might not get 100% value is not going to get it done. People act like the only trade for Willy is a 2nd round pick and a 5-6 Defenseman. That is not the case.

He was the softest D man we’ve had. Recall too, even when the D core was injured down the stretch, Keefe still couldn’t put the vet Barrie in on D zone coverages because he was that bad, literally still had to shelter him. Whether you wanted Kadri traded or not, nobody was clammoring for a rover D man, with little heart and zero defensive acumen.

I really hope some of the guys that left the organization were the pro personnel people. They are abject horrible when they ok'ed the Barrie trade as well as Marchment for Malgin. We finally had a good off season last year with Kampf and Bunting.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

sad how Dubas never has leverage

-trades
-ufa or rfa


i feel sorry how he has to operate without any leverage in anything compared to every other GM

What would Lou or any other GM do in that situation?

What would you have done? I have yet to see any body critical of that trade answer how you get out of giving up a 1st when you have 0 other options.

Lou had to give up one of his best players in Toews because he likely couldn't move any of his inflated aging contracts. Look at other teams like Florida that might have to eat 5M in salary for the next 4 years to get rid of Bobrovsky. Ottawa with Murray. There are lots of examples of teams that have to give up assets to get out from bad contracts. In the case of Marleau he had full control because he was only willing to go to one state and had to have a 3rd team buyout 6M to do it.

If we had kept Marleau and had him making 6M and doing nothing on the 4th line, we lose 1 or both of Johnsson and Kap and we don't sign TJ Brodie who has likely been our best D man the last 2 years. We end up being not as competitive because we weren't willing to give up the only offer we receive and you have a wasted year.

 

[nuck]

I can see him back east. Montreal, Ottawa or Buffalo, maybe Detroit not sure if any of them make the playoffs though.

II would have said maybe Habs as he was a Habs fan in the past, but with Wright and Suzuki it isn't really a logical get, even if they think they are a lot better than they are.

I'm not sure what his high number is because this was a crazy year for scoring compared to just a couple of years ago so there is a strong possibility of a mass regression and he is a prime candidate. I see him going to a top 10-12 club who is in their window and is built around vets nearing the end of their shelf life. Someone mentioned Washington so maybe top 13.

Somebody will pay him $7 x 5 and get rewarded with a couple of 65 point season I think because people don't usually peak at age 31 and there aren't many spots like Colorado that would generate the big point totals.

 

[Trapper]

The problem with Dubas fanboys is we are never in a good enough position to trade someone. It's either "Willy would be a net loss if you traded him...he is too valuable." or "Kerfoot is pretty much useless to anyone else..might as well keep him"...

We keep doing this over and over. Being afraid of making a trade in case we lose it is not the way to do things. You can't be Burke and do stupid stuff...but come on man...you can trade Willy and get cap relief and different players coming back that could help. Sitting on your hands because you might not get 100% value is not going to get it done. People act like the only trade for Willy is a 2nd round pick and a 5-6 Defenseman. That is not the case.


I really hope some of the guys that left the organization were the pro personnel people. They are abject horrible when they ok'ed the Barrie trade as well as Marchment for Malgin. We finally had a good off season last year with Kampf and Bunting.

My issue is people who say just wait it out. MacKinnon finally won X years later.
But Colorado made major changes along the way. Duchene, O’Reilly, Shattenkirk, Stastny, etc.

What if this current core is the Colorado of then?
Everyone thinks it’s the Colorado of just 2 years shy of winning. Maybe not. To many holes, depth, goalie m, ELC drafted positions, etc.

They kept MacKinnon, they kept Landy, but had to draft Rantanen, then wait and draft Makar, etc.

Tavares could be O’Reilly, Nylander Duchene for example. With 6 years of not even winning a round and UFA in 2 years, this team might need the overhaul for the future. In order for Matthews to be the MacKinnon if the future, all that might need to change until you find the formula. That’s what happens with this level of failure. We aren’t talking 1 game away from the Cup with this core. We are talking consistent self destruct.

 

[andora]

What would Lou or any other GM do in that situation?

What would you have done? I have yet to see any body critical of that trade answer how you get out of giving up a 1st when you have 0 other options.

Lou had to give up one of his best players in Toews because he likely couldn't move any of his inflated aging contracts. Look at other teams like Florida that might have to eat 5M in salary for the next 4 years to get rid of Bobrovsky. Ottawa with Murray. There are lots of examples of teams that have to give up assets to get out from bad contracts. In the case of Marleau he had full control because he was only willing to go to one state and had to have a 3rd team buyout 6M to do it.

If we had kept Marleau and had him making 6M and doing nothing on the 4th line, we lose 1 or both of Johnsson and Kap and we don't sign TJ Brodie who has likely been our best D man the last 2 years. We end up being not as competitive because we weren't willing to give up the only offer we receive and you have a wasted year.

Marleau and brodie didnt overlap if i remember correctly if marleau stayed his last year

And kapanen and johnsson just my opinion should have been traded earlier than they were to capitalize on their potential while being flawed players

This is a tough discussion because the tavares contract hovers above anything

I am on the side that does not sign tavares and then of course that changes things quite a bit about marleau and kadri and so on.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What would Lou or any other GM do in that situation?

What would you have done? I have yet to see any body critical of that trade answer how you get out of giving up a 1st when you have 0 other options.

Lou had to give up one of his best players in Toews because he likely couldn't move any of his inflated aging contracts. Look at other teams like Florida that might have to eat 5M in salary for the next 4 years to get rid of Bobrovsky. Ottawa with Murray. There are lots of examples of teams that have to give up assets to get out from bad contracts. In the case of Marleau he had full control because he was only willing to go to one state and had to have a 3rd team buyout 6M to do it.

If we had kept Marleau and had him making 6M and doing nothing on the 4th line, we lose 1 or both of Johnsson and Kap and we don't sign TJ Brodie who has likely been our best D man the last 2 years. We end up being not as competitive because we weren't willing to give up the only offer we receive and you have a wasted year.

Should probably sticky this somewhere, I have the strange feeling people will still need to have this explained to them years from now.

 

[ShaneFalco]

My issue is people who say just wait it out. MacKinnon finally won X years later.
But Colorado made major changes along the way. Duchene, O’Reilly, Shattenkirk, Stastny, etc.

What if this current core is the Colorado of then?
Everyone thinks it’s the Colorado of just 2 years shy of winning. Maybe not. To many holes, depth, goalie m, ELC drafted positions, etc.

They kept MacKinnon, they kept Landy, but had to draft Rantanen, then wait and draft Makar, etc.

Tavares could be O’Reilly, Nylander Duchene for example. With 6 years of not even winning a round and UFA in 2 years, this team might need the overhaul for the future. In order for Matthews to be the MacKinnon if the future, all that might need to change until you find the formula. That’s what happens with this level of failure. We aren’t talking 1 game away from the Cup with this core. We are talking consistent self destruct.

But they care deeply and a rookie GM stakes his career on the core. He won't even consider another coach it seems.

 

[hotpaws]

What would Lou or any other GM do in that situation?

What would you have done? I have yet to see any body critical of that trade answer how you get out of giving up a 1st when you have 0 other options.

Lou had to give up one of his best players in Toews because he likely couldn't move any of his inflated aging contracts. Look at other teams like Florida that might have to eat 5M in salary for the next 4 years to get rid of Bobrovsky. Ottawa with Murray. There are lots of examples of teams that have to give up assets to get out from bad contracts. In the case of Marleau he had full control because he was only willing to go to one state and had to have a 3rd team buyout 6M to do it.

If we had kept Marleau and had him making 6M and doing nothing on the 4th line, we lose 1 or both of Johnsson and Kap and we don't sign TJ Brodie who has likely been our best D man the last 2 years. We end up being not as competitive because we weren't willing to give up the only offer we receive and you have a wasted year.

yup your right there were zero other option since any other path wouldn't allowed us to build this dominant post season team and i do like how you ignored having to trade Kap an Mango the following off season due to Dubies cap mismanagement

now explain to me how it was a genius move to trade a 1st plus plus for an injured washed up Foligno

 

[ACC1224]

What would Lou or any other GM do in that situation?

What would you have done? I have yet to see any body critical of that trade answer how you get out of giving up a 1st when you have 0 other options.

Lou had to give up one of his best players in Toews because he likely couldn't move any of his inflated aging contracts. Look at other teams like Florida that might have to eat 5M in salary for the next 4 years to get rid of Bobrovsky. Ottawa with Murray. There are lots of examples of teams that have to give up assets to get out from bad contracts. In the case of Marleau he had full control because he was only willing to go to one state and had to have a 3rd team buyout 6M to do it.

If we had kept Marleau and had him making 6M and doing nothing on the 4th line, we lose 1 or both of Johnsson and Kap and we don't sign TJ Brodie who has likely been our best D man the last 2 years. We end up being not as competitive because we weren't willing to give up the only offer we receive and you have a wasted year.

The key is to not leave yourself with '0 other options', IMO.