Prospect Info: David Reinbacher

[Deebs]

They should've done that last year IMO. I think it's too late for that now and given his supposed strong off season, I think he'll be on the big team this year. Hope he does get quality time and continues to develop as we all hope.

*Edit* And on cue:

Yeah they definitely should've sent him down last year. I'd still like to see him in Laval this year but as you say, it's unlikely.

 

[BaseballCoach]

That isn't how it works and you know it. Just like Beck is likely going back to junior even though he's probably better than some of our current forwards Reinbacher despite being a first round pick is in that same boat. Think about how much better he'd have to be for management to pull the trigger on a move like that. Seider spent two years honing his craft before graduating. Nothing Reinbacher has done suggests he's two developmental years ahead of where Moritz was. Use some logic man.

Beck went back last year because he was not in our top 12. He did finish 50th or so in OHL scoring.

He may not be in our top 12 this year either. He'd have to beat out Evans at least.

But there is a difference between "dominating from start to finish" which is what the previous poster said had to happen for RB to make the team, and being better than "some" players (especially when some of whom are extras!).

The equivalent question for Beck would be: do you send him back if he is better than Anderson and Dvorak and Evans and RHP and Ylonen and Pezzetta and possibly Newhook and Slafkovsky?

I'll say my piece. "Dominating camp from start to finish" is a RIDICULOUS standard to put on a player to make the team. That literally means a second line level player or #2/3 D gets demoted just so a poster can feel that he was right to say send the kid back to a weak European league playing on big ice, before even seeing him at camp.

They should've done that last year IMO. I think it's too late for that now and given his supposed strong off season, I think he'll be on the big team this year. Hope he does get quality time and continues to develop as we all hope.

After he and the team went through a rough patch in December, Slaf was playing 14-15 minutes and looking good before going down with the knee injury.

 

[DAChampion]

The equivalent question for Beck would be: do you send him back if he is better than Anderson and Dvorak and Evans and RHP and Ylonen and Pezzetta and possibly Newhook and Slafkovsky?

Obviously, Beck won't displace Anderson, Dvorak, Newhook, Slafkovsky regardless of how well he does in camp.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Beck went back last year because he was not in our top 12. He did finish 50th or so in OHL scoring.

He may not be in our top 12 this year either. He'd have to beat out Evans at least.

But there is a difference between "dominating from start to finish" which is what the previous opoister said had to happen for RB to make the team, and being better than "some" players (especially when some of whom are extras!).

The equivalent question for Beck would be: do you send him back if he is better than Anderson and Dvorak and Evans and RHP and Ylonen and Pezzetta and possibly Newhook and Slafkovsky?

I'll say my piece. "Dominating camp from start to finish" is a RIDICULOUS standard to put on a player to make the team. That literally means a second line level player or #2/3 D gets demoted just so a poster can feel that he was right to say send the kid back to a weak European league playing on big ice, before even seeing him at camp.


After he and the team went through a rough patch in December, Slaf was playing 14-15 minutes and looking good before going down with the knee injury.

Dominating is relative. It's not just about putting up points as Beck isn't an elite point getter. He did dominate for what he is. He was a defensive specialist, won face offs and put up points and was a dominate 200 ft player.

Should he have a dominate camp, I still don't think he'll beat out Evans, Anderson etc. to win a full time role on the Habs. Just because a prospect has a dominate camp doesn't mean they'll do that all year. It's a long grind which is why few prospects can keep up the pace all year. So for a player like Beck, I'd definitely start him in Laval and let him get used to a mans league before playing him full time in the NHL.

 

[Jaynki]

It depends on the coaching and the opportunity given. If a prospect can get quality minutes and a coach who doesn't punish them for making mistakes, then it can work for elite level players. On the flip side, even if they get minutes and no reprimand for mistakes, it can still be a very humbling experience and hurt their confidence if they aren't on that level yet. So while top 5 picks, as an example, may be able to develop in the NHL, there are far more examples of players developing more completely in lower leagues while the hone in their game and gain confidence before being thrown into the best league in the world. I'd say players that jump into the league at 18, like Hughes are more the exception to the rule and not the norm.

*Edit* And on cue:


Edit No. 2. It's like I'm reading his mind LOL:

Any minutes in the NHL is quality minutes in my opinion. There is a noticeable step between an NHL 4th lines and the best AHL players. I think MSL has the mindset you are describing in terms of development.

Belief around here is that Slafkovksy did not have quality minutes or opportunity. But stats show that he was more sheltered than KK and Galchenyuk. To me that is simply the indication of a plan for his development and that they kept him here for a purpose.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I answered that question by what I initially wrote. Reinbacher would need to be a whole heck of a lot better than 2/3rds of our Dmen to make the team. It makes zero sense to graduate this guy. I'm not sure why such a simple reasonable statement caused any controversy. One guy doesn't like my level of conviction and god knows what you are on about. This is about Reinbacher and our team not about some random player on some random team. Switzerland this season and Laval the next is the path I see for this player. Do you think that if Reinbacher is slightly better than say Barron we should promote him? I don't because it is not in our best interest.

Jeezus, would slightly better than Barron be the same as "dominating camp from start to finish"?

Let's say I agree with you not to keep him if he is only slightly better than Barron at camp.

What if he's better than Savard and as good as Guhle? That's still not dominating. But should Hughes condemn him to two years of purgatory until he can reach Matheson (or better, for those who tthink Matheson is not that good) level? And how will he ever reach 1D level playing outside the NHL???

It took Rasmus Dahlin what, 4+ years of in-league develpment?

Dominating is relevant. It's not just about putting up points as Beck isn't an elite point getter. He did dominate for what he is. He was a defensive specialist, won face offs and put up points and was a dominate 200 ft player.

Should he have a dominate camp, I still don't think he'll beat out Evans, Anderson etc. to win a full time role on the Habs. Just because a prospect has a dominate camp doesn't mean they'll do that all year. It's a long grind which is why few prospects can keep up the pace all year. So for a player like Beck, I'd definitely start him in Laval and let him get used to a mans league before playing him full time in the NHL.

Are you saying one year in Junior and one year in Laval for Beck? Because he can't play in Laval this year.

I predict that is what will happen because Beck is far from top 12 now and likely won't be next year either.

 

[DAChampion]

What if he's better than Savard and as good as Guhle?

Doesn't matter, Savard is guaranteed a position in the starting six as long as healthy. Your idealism, the notion that training camp is a "tryout", is lofty but not realistic as it ignores business.

Realities:
1) Savard, Matheson, Guhle are guaranteed spots in the starting six. They don't need to bust ass in camp, and it doesn't matter if a prospect outplays them in camp.
2) The organization will want to know what it has in Harris, Xhekaj, Barron. That means ice time. Possibly in Laval if they stink up the place, but probably in the NHL.
3) Lindstrom, Kovacevic, Wideman are probably 7th and 8th D or on waivers or in Laval.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Should he have a dominate camp, I still don't think he'll beat out Evans, Anderson etc. to win a full time role on the Habs.

WTF????

In my book, uf someone dominates camp from start to finish, that means excelling in exhibitions and scrimmages, and consistently beating his NHL campmates in 1 on 1 battles, attacks, defences etc,. IKt emans donig that even in the final exhitbitions where mostly NHLers play. Is he a 3-star threat on those nights? If so, then he clearly deserves to be on the team and for that matter not on the 4th line nor 3rd pair of D.

Ifr you don't agree, then we would seem to have a misunderstanding over the phrase "dominating camp from start to finish".

Can you name me any Habs rookie or pre-rookie player in the past that you felt dominated training camp from start to finish?

Let's try to get a standard of what that term even means before we use it to cut players certain people want cut, no matter what.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Jeezus, would slightly better than Barron be the same as "dominating camp from start to finish"?

Let's say I agree with you not to keep him if he is only slightly better than Barron at camp.

What if he's better than Savard and as good as Guhle? That's still not dominating. But should Hughes condemn him to two years of purgatory until he can reach Matheson (or better, for those who tthink Matheson is not that good) level? And how will he ever reach 1D level playing outside the NHL???

It took Rasmus Dahlin what, 4+ years of in-league develpment?


Are you saying one year in Junior and one year in Laval for Beck? Because he can't play in Laval this year.

I predict that is what will happen because Beck is far from top 12 now and likely won't be next year either.

I hope so. I don't think he's NHL ready yet. So a couple more years of meaningful hockey with lots of minutes, physical development etc., will do him good. I think he can be a solid Plek like player for years to come so a similar development path wouldn't hurt. Besides, there is no need at center now so no need to rush him or any other prospect, so let them develop.

Any minutes in the NHL is quality minutes in my opinion. There is a noticeable step between an NHL 4th lines and the best AHL players. I think MSL has the mindset you are describing in terms of development.

Belief around here is that Slafkovksy did not have quality minutes or opportunity. But stats show that he was more sheltered than KK and Galchenyuk. To me that is simply the indication of a plan for his development and that they kept him here for a purpose.

It's not a provable argument in any case as we can't go back in time and compare how he would've fared if he played the year in Laval., so lets leave it at that.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Doesn't matter, Savard is guaranteed a position in the starting six as long as healthy. Your idealism, the notion that training camp is a "tryout", is lofty but not realistic as it ignores business.

There is not a team in the NHL that cuts players who dominate camp from start to finish.

Do you want to make a special rule just for the Habs just for this year? I mean last year, Guhle started the year playing equal or more minutes than Savard.

Realities:
1) Savard, Matheson, Guhle are guaranteed spots in the starting six. They don't need to bust ass in camp, and it doesn't matter if a prospect outplays them in camp.

Well, it won't matter if your top 3 D are challenged by one guy. At worstk they are still Top 4.

2) The organization will want to know what it has in Harris, Xhekaj, Barron. That means ice time. Possibly in Laval if they stink up the place, but probably in the NHL.

You said it. It could be in Laval if they are not top-6. They should not be sitting much. I love Xhekaj, I admire Harris, I think Barron progressed after his callup and Kovacevic tries hard, but to me none of these guys are guaranteed to make the team this year.

This is the NHL. Play well if you want to stick!

3) Lindstrom, Kovacevic, Wideman are probably 7th and 8th D or on waivers or in Laval.

For sure.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I hope so. I don't think he's (Beck) NHL ready yet. So a couple more years of meaningful hockey with lots of minutes, physical development etc., will do him good. I think he can be a solid Plek like player for years to come so a similar development path wouldn't hurt. Besides, there is no need at center now so no need to rush him or any other prospect, so let them develop.

"Let them develop" - Cheese is Price. Stop!

The best development possible is in the NHL.

However, if a player is not good enough for the NHL he UNFORTUNATELY must develop elsewhere first, even if that means he develops MORE SLOWLY. Then when finally ready he starts in the NHL in the bottom 6th or bottom 3D. This step cannot be avoided by sending a good player down to dominate weaker players. Anyone not named Crosby, Ovechkin or McDavid starts in the NHL with lots to learn and improve.

If Rasmus Dahlin had played only SHL and AHL from Sept 2018 to June 2022 (his 18, 19, 20 and 21 year old years), would he be a 1D in the NHL today? Not a chance.

I repeat: The best development possible is in the NHL.

It's LUDICROUS to believe that a player (who we assume for the sake of argument is good enough to play in the NHL) is going to learn more competing against Swiss league stars like the washed-up David Desharnais, and getting coached by people who DREAM of working the NHL but aren't good enough yet - than learning from MSL and Adam Nichols and watching Matheson and Savard, and learning to strip Suzuki and Caufield of the puck in practices.

Now if Reinbacher is not top-6 or even let's say top-5 coming out of camp, then he needs to go to a lower league to keep progressing as best he can. Personally, I believe the AHL is better than the Swiss league if the goal is the NHL, and I don't give a crap if Trudeau or Tourigny can't keep up in the AHL because RB an Maillous and Struble and Keeper are getting more minutes.

 

[Jaynki]

It's not a provable argument in any case as we can't go back in time and compare how he would've fared if he played the year in Laval., so lets leave it at that.

Neither is a provable argument that it was a mistake to keep Slafkovksy in the NHL

 

[BaseballCoach]

Any minutes in the NHL is quality minutes in my opinion. There is a noticeable step between an NHL 4th lines and the best AHL players. I think MSL has the mindset you are describing in terms of development.

Someone who gets it.

 

[ReHabs]

Why do you think Reinbacher is a better and more polished prospect than Slafkovksy?

I have tried arguing that Reinbacher was at least as good if not better than Nemec and Jiricek in their DY and it was not well received.

I didn’t study Nemec or Jiricek much so can’t comment on that too much but all the arguments in favour of Reinbacher haven't changed. His profile as a prospect is plenty strong. His relative stats were out of this world, he played in an adult league (albeit not a particularly noteworthy one), he logged plenty of minutes. He was trusted by his coaches. Essentially, he was deployed as a player not a prospect and that goes a long way in assessing his poise and polish as a rookie. None of the above work for Slafkovsky, mind you, so I was clearly opposed to him being in the NHL as he was too raw.

For the record: I was opposed to drafting a D with the 5OA on strategic grounds and I rejected the notion that he was a clearly better prospect than Michkov based on a few factors which applied to both prospects. But you won't find a single of my words disparaging the player or prospect after the draft was completed because I simply don't have anything against the guy. He's an attractive prospect. I hope he thrives with us.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Neither is a provable argument that it was a mistake to keep Slafkovksy in the NHL

Agreed. That’s why I never made that argument.

"Let them develop" - Cheese is Price. Stop!

The best development possible is in the NHL.

However, if a player is not good enough for the NHL he UNFORTUNATELY must develop elsewhere first, even if that means he develops MORE SLOWLY. Then when finally ready he starts in the NHL in the bottom 6th or bottom 3D. This step cannot be avoided by sending a good player down to dominate weaker players. Anyone not named Crosby, Ovechkin or McDavid starts in the NHL with lots to learn and improve.

If Rasmus Dahlin had played only SHL and AHL from Sept 2018 to June 2022 (his 18, 19, 20 and 21 year old years), would he be a 1D in the NHL today? Not a chance.

I repeat: The best development possible is in the NHL.

It's LUDICROUS to believe that a player (who we assume for the sake of argument is good enough to play in the NHL) is going to learn more competing against Swiss league stars like the washed-up David Desharnais, and getting coached by people who DREAM of working the NHL but aren't good enough yet - than learning from MSL and Adam Nichols and watching Matheson and Savard, and learning to strip Suzuki and Caufield of the puck in practices.

Now if Reinbacher is not top-6 or even let's say top-5 coming out of camp, then he needs to go to a lower league to keep progressing as best he can. Personally, I believe the AHL is better than the Swiss league if the goal is the NHL, and I don't give a crap if Trudeau or Tourigny can't keep up in the AHL because RB an Maillous and Struble and Keeper are getting more minutes.

I think it’s funny you’re only using 1st OA elite picks as examples of NHL being the best development league. It’s simply not for 99% of prospects. Period. Simple as that.

 

[Rapala]

Jeezus, would slightly better than Barron be the same as "dominating camp from start to finish"?

Let's say I agree with you not to keep him if he is only slightly better than Barron at camp.

What if he's better than Savard and as good as Guhle? That's still not dominating. But should Hughes condemn him to two years of purgatory until he can reach Matheson (or better, for those who tthink Matheson is not that good) level? And how will he ever reach 1D level playing outside the NHL???

It took Rasmus Dahlin what, 4+ years of in-league develpment?

Are you just trying to be contrary or can't you grasp simple logic.
How many D spots do you think are up for grabs? Exactly NONE.
Even if someone goes down there are currently players ahead of Reinbacher in their development. They will get the nod that is how it works.
Beck and Reinbacher are in the same situation both players would need to win their positions be a wide margin to force HuGo's hand. If not Beck is going back to junior and it has already been reported that Reinbacher is either a Hab or it's back to EHC Kloten. (I'm not sure if that's true or not but it makes the most sense)
We are not going to displace players higher up the heirarchy to make room.

BTW Why do you continually bring up players and situations that have absolutely nothing to do with our reality. If you've watched any of the numerous Reinbacher games posted here it's obvious he's not at the level Dahlin was.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Obviously, Beck won't displace Anderson, Dvorak, Newhook, Slafkovsky regardless of how well he does in camp.

Colinne.

Of course, he won't displace Anderson for example by being better than him in camp, not if you mean that Anderson loses his job outright. But his excellent showing might displace Pezzetta or Evans or Ylonen or someone else further down the chart in a domino-manner.

 

[Jaynki]

I didn’t study Nemec or Jiricek much so can’t comment on that too much but all the arguments in favour of Reinbacher haven't changed. His profile as a prospect is plenty strong. His relative stats were out of this world, he played in an adult league (albeit not a particularly noteworthy one), he logged plenty of minutes. He was trusted by his coaches. Essentially, he was deployed as a player not a prospect and that goes a long way in assessing his poise and polish as a rookie. None of the above work for Slafkovsky, mind you, so I was clearly opposed to him being in the NHL as he was too raw.

For the record: I was opposed to drafting a D with the 5OA on strategic grounds and I rejected the notion that he was a clearly better prospect than Michkov based on a few factors which applied to both prospects. But you won't find a single of my words disparaging the player or prospect after the draft was completed because I simply don't have anything against the guy. He's an attractive prospect. I hope he thrives with us.

Fair enough.

 

[Scriptor]

Beck needs to displace Evans, or Dvorak needs get traded, for him to have a spot in Montreal. I'm not sure that getting 4th line minutes in Montreal is best forms development and Laval is not an option.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Are you just trying to be contrary or can't you grasp simple logic.
How many D spots do you think are up for grabs?

On a team with one of the worst defence numbers in the league? Five spots up for grabs.


Matheson and Guhle are the only guys who should have a sure starter spot on a team that is still building and trying to find the right players. Savard may get a courtesy pass too for a while but I would still leave the possiblity of sitting him in back to backs or otherwise if he struggles.

Why in heaven's name should we accept mediocrity?

I'm consistent, I would say the same at forward. The only forwards who should be guaranteed a spot in the top 12 are:

Suzuki
Caufield
Dach
Monahan
Anderson

A healthy Gallagher would get a temporary pass to see if he can be healthy and contribute. If not, "Brendan, we need to talk".

Personally I expect Newhook, RHP and Slafkovsky to make the team but they should not be handed ANYTHING. Earn it. Even a guy like Dvorak should not be immune to a game in the press box if he can't contribute / help the team for a stretch.

And in nets, every single one of the four goalies with NHL experience should have a chance to make the team. Montemebeault would be the only one I would promise myself not to waive, but that does not mean he might not revert to being a backup.

Everything should be performance based.

For the record: I was opposed to drafting a D with the 5OA on strategic grounds and I rejected the notion that he was a clearly better prospect than Michkov based on a few factors which applied to both prospects. But you won't find a single of my words disparaging the player or prospect after the draft was completed because I simply don't have anything against the guy. He's an attractive prospect. I hope he thrives with us.

So far, Reinbacher has as many turnovers as Michkov, even with SKA having played 4 games.

 

[Jaynki]

Beck needs to displace Evans, or Dvorak needs get traded, for him to have a spot in Montreal. I'm not sure that getting 4th line minutes in Montreal is best forms development and Laval is not an option.

Why is playing 10-12 min a night on a 4th line is perceived as worst icetime/worst opportunity than any minutes in the CHL or the AHL?

 

[Redux91]

If this kid doesn't get a hole in one today I'm gonna freak out

 

[calder candidate]

Why is playing 10-12 min a night on a 4th line is perceived as worst icetime/worst opportunity than any minutes in the CHL or the AHL?

Because in a vast majority of cases if not in all cases it isn’t.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Agreed. That’s why I never made that argument.


I think it’s funny you’re only using 1st OA elite picks as examples of NHL being the best development league. It’s simply not for 99% of prospects. Period. Simple as that.

Not really true. I made the same argument for Brady Tkachuk, and about a dozen more.

But just look at how most good players improve their stats from rookie year until D+5-6-7 and please confirm that there is indeed lots of development in the NHL.

Now that does not mean everyone is ready to play in the NHL and benefit from that experience. This is why they have training camps and only rookies good enough to crack the starting lineup are usually retained on the squad. The rest have to run the risk of getting there later and falling behind those who were further ahead and made it up front.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Beck needs to displace Evans, or Dvorak needs get traded, for him to have a spot in Montreal. I'm not sure that getting 4th line minutes in Montreal is best forms development and Laval is not an option.

This is so frustrating. Do you guys realize that either Beck starts off on the 4th line now, or starts on the 4th line next year, or he starts on the 4th line in 2 years, or 3 years, etc?

Plekanec started on the 4th line, Suzuki started on the 4th line, even Pacioretty.The 4th line in the NHL is a better oplace to learn to play better NÉHL hockey than the AHL, and the AHL is better than the CHL.

The only problem is you need to deserve to be at that level otherwise you are depriving a better player of the chance to play and contribute, and possibly develop too (depends his age).

If you've watched any of the numerous Reinbacher games posted here it's obvious he's not at the level Dahlin was.

Agreed. But he might be at the level of Guhle, WE WILL SEE AT CAMP.