Prospect Info: David Reinbacher

[Scriptor]

Dominating is relative. It's not just about putting up points as Beck isn't an elite point getter. He did dominate for what he is. He was a defensive specialist, won face offs and put up points and was a dominate 200 ft player.

Should he have a dominate camp, I still don't think he'll beat out Evans, Anderson etc. to win a full time role on the Habs. Just because a prospect has a dominate camp doesn't mean they'll do that all year. It's a long grind which is why few prospects can keep up the pace all year. So for a player like Beck, I'd definitely start him in Laval and let him get used to a mans league before playing him full time in the NHL.

The perfect example is Tenderness when he had a killer camp fuelled by adrenaline from fans chanting, "Guy, Guy, Guy..."

If my memory serves me correctly, they didn't keep him in Montreal despite this, that year.

 

[The Great Weal]

Europe is the right call. Give Mailloux #1 minutes in Laval and Reinbacher #1 minutes in Europe. We need to follow the Heiskanen development plan for him. Heiskanen also had questions about his offensive upside and now look at him. That doesn't mean that Reinbacher is guaranteed to be that good too, but let him work on his offense there.

 

[Rapala]

This is so frustrating. Do you guys realize that either Beck starts off on the 4th line now, or starts on the 4th line next year, or he starts on the 4th line in 2 years, or 3 years, etc?

Plekanec started on the 4th line, Suzuki started on the 4th line, even Pacioretty.The 4th line in the NHL is a better oplace to learn to play better NÉHL hockey than the AHL, and the AHL is better than the CHL.

The only problem is you need to deserve to be at that level otherwise you are depriving a better player of the chance to play and contribute, and possibly develop too (depends his age).


Agreed. But he might be at the level of Guhle, WE WILL SEE AT CAMP.

So has Gorton provided you with a large dose of reality yet?

 

[DAChampion]

Why is playing 10-12 min a night on a 4th line is perceived as worst icetime/worst opportunity than any minutes in the CHL or the AHL?

Because quality and quantity of minutes are the two most important factors to development.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Not really true. I made the same argument for Brady Tkachuk, and about a dozen more.

But just look at how most good players improve their stats from rookie year until D+5-6-7 and please confirm that there is indeed lots of development in the NHL.

Now that does not mean everyone is ready to play in the NHL and benefit from that experience. This is why they have training camps and only rookies good enough to crack the starting lineup are usually retained on the squad. The rest have to run the risk of getting there later and falling behind those who were further ahead and made it up front.

Maybe if you clarified your arguement, I could reply in kind. I'm not aware of the entirety of your posting history and can only go with you brought up in the post we've been discussing.

Are you saying the NHL is the best league developmental league for all young players or just a handful of exceptional players? Because I have no doubt I can come up with a longer list of players who were ruined by coming up too quickly then you can of successes of developing in the NHL.

 

[Scriptor]

This is so frustrating. Do you guys realize that either Beck starts off on the 4th line now, or starts on the 4th line next year, or he starts on the 4th line in 2 years, or 3 years, etc?

Plekanec started on the 4th line, Suzuki started on the 4th line, even Pacioretty.The 4th line in the NHL is a better oplace to learn to play better NÉHL hockey than the AHL, and the AHL is better than the CHL.

The only problem is you need to deserve to be at that level otherwise you are depriving a better player of the chance to play and contribute, and possibly develop too (depends his age).


Agreed. But he might be at the level of Guhle, WE WILL SEE AT CAMP.

I think you're right, as was Jaynki and Calder Candidate, to a certain degree, but there is a difference in development from taking Beck and playing him immediately in the NHLas a 4th line C, or sending him back like we did with Suzuki and beck entering the NHL as a more mature 20-yr-old coming off a season where he will, hopefully, have been more dominant in the OHL and where he, hopefully, again, will have played key role in the WJC.

I believe that Beck will benefit more from learning how to take another step forward in Juniors, like Suzuki did, than he would from carving a role in the NHL right away, starting on the 4th line.

I guess it depends on your assessment of Beck's ceiling at the NHL level.

I personally think that Beck's two-way game, his speed, F/O abilities, playmaking and shot, combined with him being a cerebral player, much like Suzuki, sets him up with a ceiling as a potential, two-way, 2nd line C with distinct offensive upside.

If he settles as our 3rd line C at the NHL level, with remaining upside, Montreal will be in great shape, especially in case of injuries, once it is ready to contend.

If your assessment of Beck is that he will be nothing more than a 3rd line, defensive C, by all means, let him play 4th line C immediately, this year in Montreal!

But, on top of benefitting, for his development, from a larger role, this year, both in his Junior league and on the international stage, delaying that ELC from kicking in an extra year won't hurter cap situation going forward.

There's nonsense in rushing Beck, even if he impresses at training camp.

 

[Jaynki]

Because quality and quantity of minutes are the two most important factors to development.

Again, how is CHL/AHL minutes better quality than 4th line NHL minutes?

That's not including practice time with NHL squad.

You see, there is no answer to that question because there is no substitute to NHL minutes.

The preconceived notion that a player can be ruined because he has been rushed can be easily debunked. Player may bust for many reasons but Yakupov and Galchenyuk have not busted because they played at 18 years old, just like Jack Hughes and Joe Thornton have not suffered from being rushed.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Again, how is CHL/AHL minutes better quality than 4th line NHL minutes?

That's not including practice time with NHL squad.

You see, there is no answer to that question because there is no substitute to NHL minutes. The preconceived notion that a player can be ruined because he has been rushed can be easily debunked.

How much does a player touch the puck with 4th line minutes? How much do they get to experiment with their game? How much confidence do they get?

There's a lot of reasons why spending 4th line minutes in the NHL is worse than quality minutes somewhere else.

 

[Rapala]

How much does a player touch the puck with 4th line minutes? How much do they get to experiment with their game? How much confidence do they get?

There's a lot of reasons why spending 4th line minutes in the NHL is worse than quality minutes somewhere else.

Lindsey Ruff when talking about call ups said he usually prefers taking the player who is playing the role he needs to fill. He liked keeping his other lines intact as much as possible. So if a first line winger goes down he'd either call up the direct replacement or if he bumps a winger from the second line he'd call up that guy. It's a good example of why it's important to play your future role as much as possible while developing. Most players aren't going to come in and kill it from a fourth line.

 

[Jaynki]

How much does a player touch the puck with 4th line minutes? How much do they get to experiment with their game? How much confidence do they get?

There's a lot of reasons why spending 4th line minutes in the NHL is worse than quality minutes somewhere else.

Just want to make it clear we are talking about young 18-19YO top prospects bubble NHLer like Jack Hughes, Slafkovsky, Draisaitl, Shane Wright etc.

Even if they get to touch the puck 4-5 times more in junior or NCAA, what is the point in the end when they already kill the competition? What do they have to experiment more? 10 puck touches in the NHL should be way more valuable than 50 puck touches in the CHL, no?

How do they learn about the NHL speed, heavyness, physicality in the CHL? How do they learn to protect themselves in the NCAA?

Why did Seattle kept Shane Wright for 4 months despite playing him only 8 games averaging less than 10 min a game?

As for the confidence part, it is first and foremost a mental state. Not a by-product of performance. If a young 18YO has his confidence killed because he did not dominate in the NHL, there is a serious problem with his mindset and i would bet that this player will never make it.

 

[Jaynki]

Lindsey Ruff when talking about call ups said he usually prefers taking the player who is playing the role he needs to fill. He liked keeping his other lines intact as much as possible. So if a first line winger goes down he'd either call up the direct replacement or if he bumps a winger from the second line he'd call up that guy. It's a good example of why it's important to play your future role as much as possible while developing. Most players aren't going to come in and kill it from a fourth line.

That is a big non-sense.

There is no 1st line winger replacement in the AHL.

So if your top guns is performing really well in the AHL, you should call-up the plug because its a 4th liner that got injured?

Why can't he simply bump every player up a line and call-up the best player ?

 

[WeThreeKings]

Just want to make it clear we are talking about young 18-19YO top prospects bubble NHLer like Jack Hughes, Slafkovsky, Draisaitl, Shane Wright etc.

Even if they get to touch the puck 4-5 times more in junior or NCAA, what is the point in the end when they already kill the competition? What do they have to experiment more? 10 puck touches in the NHL should be way more valuable than 50 puck touches in the CHL, no?

How do they learn about the NHL speed, heavyness, physicality in the CHL? How do they learn to protect themselves in the NCAA?

Why did Seattle kept Shane Wright for 4 months despite playing him only 8 games averaging less than 10 min a game?

As for the confidence part, it is first and foremost a mental state. Not a by-product of performance. If a young 18YO has his confidence killed because he did not dominate in the NHL, there is a serious problem with his mindset and i would bet that this player will never make it.

Well that depends because McDavid wasn't negatively impacted by being in the CHL when he was NHL ready in his draft year, nor was Crosby, etc. I don't think there's really anything that can negatively happen to a player playing at a level he's too good for with specific adjustments they need to make.. so someone like Joshua Roy who destroyed the Q last year, went back and worked on skating, a complete game, etc. a lot easier to do that at a level where you aren't being stressed and just trying to survive.

I don't think the Shane Wright handling was good, do we think Shane Wright is a better prospect after this year and how he was handled? The answer for me is a resounding no, his reputation took a hit because he wasn't good enough to carry a team in the OHL play-offs last year, and didn't this year. He'd be back in the OHL for me again this year.

And no confidence is a huge thing, MSL talked about it as well, joy of the game. If you put a guy out there and he isn't ready, he doesn't touch the puck, isn't playing the role he is destined to play, the game is too fast for him, he makes mistakes and is getting reamed in the media, in the dressing room, by his staff.. you take the joy out of that player or you start making them into something they are not.

Now certain circumstances can be different like Slaf.. Europe wasn't good, and there's a debate on AHL for NHL on the physicality and readiness scale but the OHL didn't make sense because he'd likely keep his bad habits like Lindros did and hurt himself further down the line.

 

[Rapala]

Why did Seattle kept Shane Wright for 4 months despite playing him only 8 games averaging less than 10 min a game?

Why did they send him back. Why did Draisaitl get sent back. In Wright's case I can only assume they didn't really want to but he wasn't able to provide what they were asking of him. Nothing is linear or set in stone but the general consensus is and always has been that you want your kids playing as much as possible in the role you drafted them for. Suzuki started on a fourth line but that is not rare for a center DD and Danault did also. Take Slaf for example we didn't try to play him on a fourth line because that would have negated the reason for keeping him up in the first place. (even though it was wrong)

That is a big non-sense.

There is no 1st line winger replacement in the AHL.

So if your top guns is performing really well in the AHL, you should call-up the plug because its a 4th liner that got injured?

Why can't he simply bump every player up a line and call-up the best player ?

Yeah go tell Ruff that.

 

[Jaynki]

Why did they send him back. Why did Draisaitl get sent back. In Wright's case I can only assume they didn't really want to but he wasn't able to provide what they were asking of him. Nothing is linear or set in stone but the general consensus is and always has been that you want your kids playing as much as possible in the role you drafted them for. Suzuki started on a fourth line but that is not rare for a center DD and Danault did also. Take Slaf for example we didn't try to play him on a fourth line because that would have negated the reason for keeping him up in the first place. (even though it was wrong)


Yeah go tell Ruff that.

How do i tell Ruff that? Its seem so evident.

Now, concerning Wright, it is simply because Seattle were in a different spot than Montreal.

Montreal could afford to live with Slafkovsky mistake and grow him in the NHL.

Seattle wanted to perform for the playoff and they wanted a more seasoned-vet in his spot.

If Montreal were aiming for a playoff spot, would Slafkovksy played elsewhere? I would guess yes.

Well that depends because McDavid wasn't negatively impacted by being in the CHL when he was NHL ready in his draft year, nor was Crosby, etc. I don't think there's really anything that can negatively happen to a player playing at a level he's too good for with specific adjustments they need to make.. so someone like Joshua Roy who destroyed the Q last year, went back and worked on skating, a complete game, etc. a lot easier to do that at a level where you aren't being stressed and just trying to survive.

I don't think the Shane Wright handling was good, do we think Shane Wright is a better prospect after this year and how he was handled? The answer for me is a resounding no, his reputation took a hit because he wasn't good enough to carry a team in the OHL play-offs last year, and didn't this year. He'd be back in the OHL for me again this year.

And no confidence is a huge thing, MSL talked about it as well, joy of the game. If you put a guy out there and he isn't ready, he doesn't touch the puck, isn't playing the role he is destined to play, the game is too fast for him, he makes mistakes and is getting reamed in the media, in the dressing room, by his staff.. you take the joy out of that player or you start making them into something they are not.

Now certain circumstances can be different like Slaf.. Europe wasn't good, and there's a debate on AHL for NHL on the physicality and readiness scale but the OHL didn't make sense because he'd likely keep his bad habits like Lindros did and hurt himself further down the line.

Listen, i agree with all of your points. I don't think Slafkovsky would have been ruined or that it would have been a nuisance to play in the AHL.

The thing i disagree with is the pre-conceived notion that a player can be ruined because he was brought in too early.

As much as there are upside to have another year in the minors, there is also strong, irreplaceable upside at playing in the NHL in a positive, development-oriented context, like it was the case this year for Slafkovksy as Montreal could afford it. (Seattle could not afford it with Wright because they were performance oriented and aimed the playoffs)

 

[WeThreeKings]

How do i tell Ruff that? Its seem so evident.

Now, concerning Wright, it is simply because Seattle were in a different spot than Montreal.

Montreal could afford to live with Slafkovsky mistake and grow him in the NHL.

Seattle wanted to perform for the playoff and they wanted a more seasoned-vet in his spot.

If Montreal were aiming for a playoff spot, would Slafkovksy played elsewhere? I would guess yes.


Listen, i agree with all of your points. I don't think Slafkovsky would have been ruined or that it would have been a nuisance to play in the AHL.

The thing i disagree with is the pre-conceived notion that a player can be ruined because he was brought in too early.

As much as there are upside to have another year in the minors, there is also strong, irreplaceable upside at playing in the NHL in a positive, development-oriented context, like it was the case this year for Slafkovksy as Montreal could afford it. (Seattle could not afford it with Wright because they were performance oriented and aimed the playoffs)

It's the combination, if you bring them in too early and handle them poorly, which is what happens most of the time. You can ruin them a lot more easily than if you let them develop slowly and pass each test at each level.

To your point on Wright, most coaches won't accept someone making a move at the blueline and causing a turnover. So they get coached to play safe, the game is faster than its ever been for them, and suddenly they aren't using any of their skills in the flow of an actual game.

If your player is not getting opportunity or ice time or puck touches. And if they are getting puck touches but there's nothing reminiscent of the game you drafted them for, you are creating very difficult circumstances for a player to positively grow from it.

Slaf busting playing for Marty at 18 is a different odd entirely than if he played for Therrien.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Maybe if you clarified your arguement, I could reply in kind. I'm not aware of the entirety of your posting history and can only go with you brought up in the post we've been discussing.

Are you saying the NHL is the best league developmental league for all young players or just a handful of exceptional players? Because I have no doubt I can come up with a longer list of players who were ruined by coming up too quickly then you can of successes of developing in the NHL.

Absolutely not. It's never perfect, but teams get these things right more often thn wrong.

If you take a complete list of guys who skipped the AHL and went straight to the NHL, you will find a higher percentage of guys who made it as good NHLers than the percentage of guys who had to start in the AHL and then succeeded as good NHLers.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Maybe if you clarified your arguement, I could reply in kind. I'm not aware of the entirety of your posting history and can only go with you brought up in the post we've been discussing.

Are you saying the NHL is the best league developmental league for all young players or just a handful of exceptional players? Because I have no doubt I can come up with a longer list of players who were ruined by coming up too quickly then you can of successes of developing in the NHL.

I'm saying if you want to excel in the NHL you need to play in the NHL and pick up the things you need to pick up.

Dahlin would not be a 1D if he played in the SHL and AHL for his 18-21 year old years. Brady would not have been a captain when he became one if he was a rookie that year.

However, your in-NHL development can only start once you are good enough to be an NHL starter. There are only 23 roster spots, and youngsters should not be among the three press-boxers. So while many would love the cahnce for accelerated development, not all can have it. It's that simple. It's a professional sports team with a mandate to be competitive and try to win. Guys who are way over their heads should not be given a free pass when there aren't enough of those to go around.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Any minutes in the NHL is quality minutes in my opinion. There is a noticeable step between an NHL 4th lines and the best AHL players. I think MSL has the mindset you are describing in terms of development.

Belief around here is that Slafkovksy did not have quality minutes or opportunity. But stats show that he was more sheltered than KK and Galchenyuk. To me that is simply the indication of a plan for his development and that they kept him here for a purpose.

St. Louis was trying to win every night which is why Slafkovsky’s minutes were low and which is why any prospect who isn’t ready is going to struggle playing in the NHL. These guys aren’t playing to lose just to develop whether people want to believe that’s what the mentality during a rebuild. St. Louis is trying to build a coaching resume himself. The NHL isn’t a development league and less minutes at a higher level when you’re struggling aren’t “quality minutes” in comparison to playing somewhere else. I have no idea where you’re getting that from but it’s certainly not from experience yourself playing high level sports. Confidence is a big part of development and you’re robbing kids of it if they aren’t succeeding regardless of if you’re giving them these consistent “high quality” minutes in the NHL.

 

[Rapala]

How do i tell Ruff that? Its seem so evident.

True let me mull this over for a moment...

Should I lend credence to a statement made by the Jack Adams winning guy whose coaching career started the year we last won the cup. Who is the winningest coach for a single franchise in NHL history surpassing the great Toe Blake or Jaynki HFBoard member since 2014 who claims it to be "garbage"

Tough Call

NOT

 

[Sterling Archer]

I'm saying if you want to excel in the NHL you need to play in the NHL and pick up the things you need to pick up.

Dahlin would not be a 1D if he played in the SHL and AHL for his 18-21 year old years. Brady would not have been a captain when he became one if he was a rookie that year.

However, your in-NHL development can only start once you are good enough to be an NHL starter. There are only 23 roster spots, and youngsters should not be among the three press-boxers. So while many would love the cahnce for accelerated development, not all can have it. It's that simple. It's a professional sports team with a mandate to be competitive and try to win. Guys who are way over their heads should not be given a free pass when there aren't enough of those to go around.

So we’re effectively saying the same thing. NHL is good for elite players who are skilled enough to play in it.

Where there’s a slight gap, I believe, is it sounds like you’re saying any player would benefit from developing in the NHL but there just isn’t enough spots. If that’s the case, I couldn’t disagree with you more.

As you said, NHL is a professional league, not a developmental one. Making a mistake or several will mean your coach will play a more veteran player who doesn’t make those mistakes over someone who does. That means less use time, especially quality and meaningful ice time which means lost opportunities to develop. By playing in a lesser league, the same player is not playing against the best players in the world and can be put in those important positions and given ice time they’d never get in a pro league. That means they can get more reps and can learn more with less pressure and not lose their confidence. MSL literally just said that in regards to Slaf and how to manage his time. Before you go and say “see, that’s what I’m saying, NHL is better for development!” Slaf was a 1st OA pick and was playing in a men’s league previously and is physically completely matured. Also, I think most would say he would’ve been better off in Laval last year but that’s neither here nor there. He’s not every other prospect in the Habs organization who didn’t jump from the draft to the NHL. He’s the exception.

So to summarize, NHL good for very small sample of players as it’s not a developmental league, while vast majority are better off developing by playing in lower leagues until they’ve physically and mentally matured enough to handle the vigors of a full season in the best league on earth. Hope that clarifies my point as well.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Europe is the right call. Give Mailloux #1 minutes in Laval and Reinbacher #1 minutes in Europe. We need to follow the Heiskanen development plan for him. Heiskanen also had questions about his offensive upside and now look at him. That doesn't mean that Reinbacher is guaranteed to be that good too, but let him work on his offense there.

The habs would never rush a kid cmon man

 

[BaseballCoach]

So we’re effectively saying the same thing. NHL is good for elite players who are skilled enough to play in it.

Where there’s a slight gap, I believe, is it sounds like you’re saying any player would benefit from developing in the NHL but there just isn’t enough spots.

Actually, what I am saying is that the NHL is where you learn the most about playing in the NHL and getting even better, but if you are not good enough to at least be in the starting 20 then you are over your head and should not be "rushed" to the NHL.

That's my definition of "rushed" - when you are brought to the NHL before you earn it through play. You don't have to be a top 6F yet or a top pair D. But MAKE THE TEAM FAIR AND SQUARE, and not as an extra.

Now, what is the missing element? That can make a difference. For Lane Hutson last year and probably this year too, it is physical immaturity. It is not likely to be a short stint in Laval that changes that. If it's the rink size,à the AHL for a few weeks all the way up to one season may be needed.

If it's defensive awareness, usually at least a few months in the AHL is needed.

On the other hand, if the player is good enough right now to start in the NHL and contribute, but his shot is weak, he can work on that while in the NHL. Or if he needs to learn to beat top defenders in order to become a 1st line player, that can only be done in the NHL.

So to summarize, NHL good for very small sample of players as it’s not a developmental league, while vast majority are better off developing by playing in lower leagues until they’ve physically and mentally matured enough to handle the vigors of a full season in the best league on earth. Hope that clarifies my point as well.

They are "better off" not because they will learn more than their campmates who made the NHL team (they likely WON'T), but better off not being in the pressbox or getting 6 minutes per game. At some point if you are too far behind others, there is not much to be learned. University definitely has better teachers than a middle school, but if you aren't ready for university, you can't take advantage of those top teaàchers.

 

[BaseballCoach]

St. Louis was trying to win every night which is why Slafkovsky’s minutes were low and which is why any prospect who isn’t ready is going to struggle playing in the NHL. These guys aren’t playing to lose just to develop whether people want to believe that’s what the mentality during a rebuild. St. Louis is trying to build a coaching resume himself. The NHL isn’t a development league and less minutes at a higher level when you’re struggling aren’t “quality minutes” in comparison to playing somewhere else. I have no idea where you’re getting that from but it’s certainly not from experience yourself playing high level sports. Confidence is a big part of development and you’re robbing kids of it if they aren’t succeeding regardless of if you’re giving them these consistent “high quality” minutes in the NHL.

I used to run the Quebec amateur baseball program in all of Southwest Quebec including all the Western suburbs of Montreal. Over 200 teams of various ages.

We would have yearly Regional Championships, divided between A and B classes.

We were flexible in our league play and would allow small town associations permission to play in B . This was despite the Quebec standard that every town's first team must play in A, even if they only have one team compared to another town that has 48 players spread between 1 A and 3 B teams.

In the year in question we gave one small town permission to put their sole 18U team in the B league. They finished first out of 7 teams. The A league had 6 teams, the largest association having one A team and 3 B teams.

At Regional championships, derogations are not allowed, so this town had to register their team in the A championship. The VP of the largest association with 1 A team (who finished third in A) and 3 B teams OBJECTED strenuously to our decision to accept the derogated team's entry in the A Championships He argued insistently that the confidence this team got from dominating the B league was unfair to the 6 A teams who all played competitive games the whole year and lacked the confidence of this other team.

We really had no grounds to bar the team from registering in A, especially since the provincial organization prevented them from registering in B.

So we told the objectionable objector to stop whining and suck it up.

The B team entered the championship with amazing levels of confidence, promptly lost their first two games by mercy scores and were the first team eliminated.

They had maybe 3 A quality players but these guys could not improve playing in B against weak pitchers and porous defences. The best player who hit .740 during the season was named Midget B Player of the Year in all of Quebec. He hit ..222 in the two Regional A games. Their team batting average of .500 during the season dropped to .120 during the two quick losses.

Confidence is not a magic pill. You become the best by playing against the best.

 

[BaseballCoach]

How much does a player touch the puck with 4th line minutes? How much do they get to experiment with their game? How much confidence do they get?

Ask Nick Suzuki.

 

[DAChampion]

Ask Nick Suzuki.

Suzuki wasn't rushed. He got to develop his offensive and leadership side for two years in the CHL.