Prospect Info: David Reinbacher

[dcyhabs]

How much does a player touch the puck with 4th line minutes? How much do they get to experiment with their game? How much confidence do they get?

There's a lot of reasons why spending 4th line minutes in the NHL is worse than quality minutes somewhere else.

And who do they play with? Some players, like Roy this year, are better when they have better teammates. If you stick guys on the fourth line they may never show what they can do.

It doesn't matter as much for low skill guys, they can play fourth line and chip it off the glass. The guys with offensive potential need to play with other guys who can score. Playing any serious prospect on the fourth line for significant minutes is likely to block their learning unless you have a crazily good lower line. Better to play the future scorers on scoring lines in lower leagues.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Suzuki wasn't rushed. He got to develop his offensive and leadership side for two years in the CHL.

The question is what puck touchnes did he get in his fourth line role.

Yes, guys drafted at 13 often stay in the CHL for two years.

But the number of puck touches on the fourth line is not dicated by the calendar age of the player.

And who do they play with? Some players, like Roy this year, are better when they have better teammates. If you stick guys on the fourth line they may never show what they can do.

It doesn't matter as much for low skill guys, they can play fourth line and chip it off the glass. The guys with offensive potential need to play with other guys who can score. Playing any serious prospect on the fourth line for significant minutes is likely to block their learning unless you have a crazily good lower line. Better to play the future scorers on scoring lines in lower leagues.

That's just not how the NHL works. Even if you demote a kid and even if he succeeds at the lower level (again), when he comes up, he will start in the bottom 6 or more usually bottom 3 or the third pairing D.

 

[CHwest]

And who do they play with? Some players, like Roy this year, are better when they have better teammates. If you stick guys on the fourth line they may never show what they can do.

It doesn't matter as much for low skill guys, they can play fourth line and chip it off the glass. The guys with offensive potential need to play with other guys who can score. Playing any serious prospect on the fourth line for significant minutes is likely to block their learning unless you have a crazily good lower line. Better to play the future scorers on scoring lines in lower leagues.

I remember when JK hit the league, brimming with cockiness and confidence, it didn't last. These are kids and some do not handle having their confidence crushed well. Offensive players especially need to be able to develop skills in a less pressured environment. As JK slowly lost favor with Julien and was getting a shorter leash he could not try things he could have in a lower league. The NHL is not a development league, skills are developed in a more stress free environment. Do some develop despite, of course, but far more fail to get to their potential.

 

[Rapala]

The question is what puck touchnes did he get in his fourth line role.

Like DD and Danault before him he got enough touches to get promoted. When players are effective they get minutes it's fairly basic. All three players had something in common a very solid development base at their regular positions in lower echelons. The risk of playing someone in a role they aren't ready or suited for is exactly what it is said to be "bad development." The players who aren't developing are the ones we are talking about not the players who are. In Reinbacher's case he is in Switzerland playing with men in a very short season compared to NA. He is not getting the same number of quality reps as Ghule had for example with his Post Season his Mem Cup and Team Canada knock out games. People have been arguing about his path this year since the beginning of this thread. For those who laid down the logical reasons it would be Switzerland well done. The plan was obvious since they announced the two year sliding ELC. Not closing the door but preparing eventualities. We want and hope we drafted a Moritz Seider like RD. Reinbacher is going to have to take some huge strides to progress to the point where we burn a year of that ELC. Like Seider two years of prep work seems to be the way to go.

 

[Jaynki]

It's the combination, if you bring them in too early and handle them poorly, which is what happens most of the time. You can ruin them a lot more easily than if you let them develop slowly and pass each test at each level.

To your point on Wright, most coaches won't accept someone making a move at the blueline and causing a turnover. So they get coached to play safe, the game is faster than its ever been for them, and suddenly they aren't using any of their skills in the flow of an actual game.

If your player is not getting opportunity or ice time or puck touches. And if they are getting puck touches but there's nothing reminiscent of the game you drafted them for, you are creating very difficult circumstances for a player to positively grow from it.

Slaf busting playing for Marty at 18 is a different odd entirely than if he played for Therrien.

Your last paragraph is everything in keeping Slaf in the NHL this season.

Also, in the end, Galchenyuk and KK did not busted because they played at 18.

I believe the former had major attitude issue and the latter was simply overreached.

Also, what good did it do to KK and Caufield to go in the AHL? I don't think it did much to them but i also believe both disliked it.

 

[Jaynki]

St. Louis was trying to win every night which is why Slafkovsky’s minutes were low and which is why any prospect who isn’t ready is going to struggle playing in the NHL. These guys aren’t playing to lose just to develop whether people want to believe that’s what the mentality during a rebuild. St. Louis is trying to build a coaching resume himself. The NHL isn’t a development league and less minutes at a higher level when you’re struggling aren’t “quality minutes” in comparison to playing somewhere else. I have no idea where you’re getting that from but it’s certainly not from experience yourself playing high level sports. Confidence is a big part of development and you’re robbing kids of it if they aren’t succeeding regardless of if you’re giving them these consistent “high quality” minutes in the NHL.

Tryjng to win every night and giving room to a young player who needs care and attention can both go together.

The incentives this season was to develop the young player and grow them in a indeed, positive winning mentality.

If we were aiming for a playoff spot, maybe having a player who requires less coaching and care, like a seasoned vet, would have been better for the spot Slaf was in.

My experience from a f***ing competitive field teached me that confidence is a state of mind. Its something inherent and not the by-product of performance. There is no confidence to gain dominating lesser league nor is there confidence to be lost struggling in the NHL at 18. Confidence comes before success.

Slaf has dominated every single caliber since he is 5 years old despite being two years younger than his peers in minor hockey. I would argue that struggling might be better for him now than dominating plugs.

True let me mull this over for a moment...

Should I lend credence to a statement made by the Jack Adams winning guy whose coaching career started the year we last won the cup. Who is the winningest coach for a single franchise in NHL history surpassing the great Toe Blake or Jaynki HFBoard member since 2014 who claims it to be "garbage"

Tough Call

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NOT

Appeal to authority.

If Ruff argued that Wayne Gretzky was a bad hockey player, would you believe it because Lindy Ruff said so?

His point of view on recall was non sense to me and i gave you fairly good point.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Tryjng to win every night and giving room to a young player who needs care and attention can both go together.

The incentives this season was to develop the young player and grow them in a indeed, positive winning mentality.

If we were aiming for a playoff spot, maybe having a player who requires less coaching and care, like a seasoned vet, would have been better for the spot Slaf was in.

My experience from a f***ing competitive field teached me that confidence is a state of mind. Its something inherent and not the by-product of performance. There is no confidence to gain dominating lesser league nor is there confidence to be lost struggling in the NHL at 18. Confidence comes before success.

Slaf has dominated every single caliber since he is 5 years old despite being two years younger than his peers in minor hockey. I would argue that struggling might be better for him now than dominating plugs.


Appeal to authority.

If Ruff argued that Wayne Gretzky was a bad hockey player, would you believe it because Lindy Ruff said so?

His point of view on recall was non sense to me and i gave you fairly good point.

His total ice time last season doesn’t support your argument at all. There was plenty of opportunity with how poor our forwards were to move up the line up and he didn’t. He hasn’t dominated any pro leagues so this fallacy that he would dominate lower level competition then the NHL means nothing. His production in the Finnish league suggests that the AHL would’ve likely been a challenge for him too. And for whatever reason Slafkovsky has been deemed to good and placed on a pedestal above every other player that has come threw the CHL.

 

[ReHabs]

Slaf has dominated every single caliber since he is 5 years old despite being two years younger than his peers in minor hockey. I would argue that struggling might be better for him now than dominating plugs.

You mean except Liiga where he couldn't hold down his position, much less dominate. And also same goes in the NHL as well.

 

[WeThreeKings]

His total ice time last season doesn’t support your argument at all. There was plenty of opportunity with how poor our forwards were to move up the line up and he didn’t. He hasn’t dominated any pro leagues so this fallacy that he would dominate lower level competition then the NHL means nothing. His production in the Finnish league suggests that the AHL would’ve likely been a challenge for him too. And for whatever reason Slafkovsky has been deemed to good and placed on a pedestal above every other player that has come threw the CHL.

They didn't deem he was too good for the AHL.

They didn't think the CHL would teach him what he needed to learn since he could use his size without worry. They also decided the AHL would be the opposite where he would be head hunted by career goons looking to make a name for themselves.

You can disagree with their choice but it wasn't made with the eye of him being too good for anything. It was trying to find the right spot for him to develop what he needs to develop. Getting a 100 pt season in the OHL wouldn't have changed that other than stats humpers would have felt temporary respite.

 

[Hacketts]

You mean except Liiga where he couldn't hold down his position, much less dominate. And also same goes in the NHL as well.

Don't forget to mention that you didn't watch a single game of his while he was in Liiga.

 

[ReHabs]

Don't forget to mention that you didn't watch a single game of his while he was in Liiga.

How many did you watch? Which one was his best game?

They didn't think the CHL would teach him what he needed to learn since he could use his size without worry. They also decided the AHL would be the opposite where he would be head hunted by career goons looking to make a name for themselves.

The CHL is not so small that Juraj 'got rocked by Marco Rossi' Slafkovsky would've been able to use his size without worry. He couldn't use his size properly in Liiga either, mind you.

This AHL head-hunter myth just won't die despite all evidence to the contrary. It goes to show how some self-aggrandizing personalities in the media and commentary space cannot admit they were wrong about simple things.

 

[SlafySZN]

You mean except Liiga where he couldn't hold down his position, much less dominate. And also same goes in the NHL as well.

Couldn’t hold down his position? you mean being a regular on a pro team at 17 years old?

And yes, he was able to use his size properly in the Liiga. But you would’ve had to watch him to know that.

 

[nhlfan9191]

They didn't deem he was too good for the AHL.

They didn't think the CHL would teach him what he needed to learn since he could use his size without worry. They also decided the AHL would be the opposite where he would be head hunted by career goons looking to make a name for themselves.

You can disagree with their choice but it wasn't made with the eye of him being too good for anything. It was trying to find the right spot for him to develop what he needs to develop. Getting a 100 pt season in the OHL wouldn't have changed that other than stats humpers would have felt temporary respite.

I wasn’t referring to managements opinion on that. I was referring to a certain part of the fanbase that have been arguing the NHL was the only and best option for him last season which just sounds insane to me. When Hughes had his PC after the Slaf injury, he didn’t even sound sure himself in the decisions they had made involving him.

 

[Hacketts]

How many did you watch? Which one was his best game?

I'm not speaking gospel on the player pretending to know that I have all the answers.

I can at least say I've watched a few of his tournaments games, and what he was going on the National team was pretty impressive for a kid... but that's old news, just like his stat line from Liiga.

In time if he busts or doesn't amount to legit top 6 player... Go ahead and bring up his Liiga play for the rest of your time on this earth. Dance away in the f'ing sunset of your ego and you being right about this...

BUT until that point, how about we wait and see what he actually turns into..... Instead of bringing up his Liiga stats at every turn and in every thread.

 

[ReHabs]

I'm not speaking gospel on the player pretending to know that I have all the answers.

I can at least say I've watched a few of his tournaments games, and what he was going on the National team was pretty impressive for a kid... but that's old news, just like his stat line from Liiga.

In time if he busts or doesn't amount to legit top 6 player... Go ahead and bring up his Liiga play for the rest of your time on this earth. Dance away in the f'ing sunset of your ego and you being right about this...

BUT until that point, how about we wait and see what he actually turns into..... Instead of bringing up his Liiga stats at every turn and in every thread.

The claim was that he's dominated everywhere he's played. The simple stats say otherwise. Do you think Slafkovsky dominated in Liiga or in the NHL? It's a simple question.

We need to discuss topics on the same plane, so it's worth clarifying if someone actually thinks Slafkovsky dominated in his 10pt season in Liiga and his 10pt season in the NHL or if they were oversights in their statement.

This obviously relates to Reinbacher and his development -- Reinbacher did much better in his D-year season than Slaf did in his. It bears wondering where his next stop should be, if not back in Switzerland, for his optimal development.

 

[Rapala]

Tryjng to win every night and giving room to a young player who needs care and attention can both go together.

The incentives this season was to develop the young player and grow them in a indeed, positive winning mentality.

If we were aiming for a playoff spot, maybe having a player who requires less coaching and care, like a seasoned vet, would have been better for the spot Slaf was in.

My experience from a f***ing competitive field teached me that confidence is a state of mind. Its something inherent and not the by-product of performance. There is no confidence to gain dominating lesser league nor is there confidence to be lost struggling in the NHL at 18. Confidence comes before success.

Slaf has dominated every single caliber since he is 5 years old despite being two years younger than his peers in minor hockey. I would argue that struggling might be better for him now than dominating plugs.


Appeal to authority.

If Ruff argued that Wayne Gretzky was a bad hockey player, would you believe it because Lindy Ruff said so?

His point of view on recall was non sense to me and i gave you fairly good point.

No you didn't not even close. Some organizations won't take a top line guy and dump him on the fourth line on a call up they prefer to keep him in place gettng his reps as a top line player. I can't help it if you don't approve it happens.

 

[BaseballCoach]

No you didn't not even close. Some organizations won't take a top line guy and dump him on the fourth line on a call up they prefer to keep him in place gettng his reps as a top line player. I can't help it if you don't approve it happens.

It's rare that a guy doing well in the AHL is passed over for an NHL callup, not for another of the top players, but for a bottom line AHL player. Yes we did it for a game or two with Teasdale and Condotta but that was a real exception because Habs were eliminated and Laval was not. Nothing to do with "role".

A guy on the first line in the AHL is still a 5th or 6th liner in the organization. Barring crazy circumstances, why call up a 9th liner?

 

[BaseballCoach]

Reinbacher did much better in his D-year season than Slaf did in his. It bears wondering where his next stop should be, if not back in Switzerland, for his optimal development.

I don't like Kloten as a development environment as much as Laval, if the missing piece is NHL time and space.

I don't buy the argument that we must send our 5OA pick to another organization in a weak league playing on an oversized rink ....... in order to give more minutes to William Trudeau and Miguel Tourigny.

Some posters want Mailloux to be the sole top dog in Laval, yet many of those same posters wanted at least 3 of Guhle, Barron, Harris and Xhekaj to all "play together and grow together" in Laval last year, and wanted Slaf there too. Thereis no consistency other than "don't 'rush' anyone".

I suspect the people who want Reinbacher sent back to Europe are purposely suggesting it in order to cause him to have to spend two years away from the Habs. They are afraid that if he plays in Laval this season, he will be ready for the NHL next year, and this is somehow unacceptable in their heads.

 

[Rapala]

It's rare that a guy doing well in the AHL is passed over for an NHL callup, not for another of the top players, but for a bottom line AHL player. Yes we did it for a game or two with Teasdale and Condotta but that was a real exception because Habs were eliminated and Laval was not. Nothing to do with "role".

A guy on the first line in the AHL is still a 5th or 6th liner in the organization. Barring crazy circumstances, why call up a 9th liner?

That was never my point. Once again nothing is written in stone. Ruff said what he said and the Sabres acted on that premise. Like for like on call ups. It really isn't some earth shattering comment.
That a keyboard warrior doesn't agree and calls in nonsense has no bearing on what my post was in response to. People tend to forget there are 31 other teams in this league who do things their own way.

 

[Habs]

Is the team going do the Slafbacher again this year and rush two top picks for no good reason?

 

[SlafySZN]

Is the team going do the Slafbacher again this year and rush two top picks for no good reason?

Gorton already said yesterday that Reinbacher is going back to Kloten

 

[BaseballCoach]

Gorton already said yesterday that Reinbacher is going back to Kloten

That is not what he said. He said that if he were handicapping, it is more likely he goes back than not, but that he will be given a chance in camp to show what he can do.

Perfectly sensible, except for the Kloten over Laval part. I guess his contract plays into it.

Interestingly, last year, Gorton told us that the young defencemen would not all start in Montreal, maybe 1 or 2 and that there would likely be a rotation of guys going up and down, and then Guhle had a standout camp and was given a top-4 role, and 3 out of the 4 rookies made the team.

That's what camps are for. To choose who to rush, LOL.

 

[Rapala]

I don't like Kloten as a development environment as much as Laval, if the missing piece is NHL time and space.

I'm curious as to why you would say this.
Do you just not like Swiss Hockey in general?

EHC Kloten is actually described in Wikapedia as having one of the best youth systems in Swiss hockey.

There is absolutely no rush to play him in Laval. Why would you when the kid himself said he'd like to play one more year at home to work on some stuff. Leave him where he is comfortable. I get the feeling people only want him in Laval in the hopes he graduates the folllowing season. While others see two years as more realistic.

 

[Jaynki]

His total ice time last season doesn’t support your argument at all. There was plenty of opportunity with how poor our forwards were to move up the line up and he didn’t. He hasn’t dominated any pro leagues so this fallacy that he would dominate lower level competition then the NHL means nothing. His production in the Finnish league suggests that the AHL would’ve likely been a challenge for him too. And for whatever reason Slafkovsky has been deemed to good and placed on a pedestal above every other player that has come threw the CHL.

His total icetime and the fact he has not moved up the line-up support that he was kept for a specific purpose that is development. He was more sheltered than KK and Galchenyuk.

You mean except Liiga where he couldn't hold down his position, much less dominate. And also same goes in the NHL as well.

Except the professional league where he played at 17 indeed and the best league in the world at 18, of course.

 

[Jaynki]

No you didn't not even close. Some organizations won't take a top line guy and dump him on the fourth line on a call up they prefer to keep him in place gettng his reps as a top line player. I can't help it if you don't approve it happens.

Not saying it don't happen. Just saying its not the only way to skin the cat.

Example this season Josh Roy kills the AHL. And then Armia get injured. We should call up Philippe Maillet because he is better suited for the role and let the young, promising guy rot down there because its not his role?