D. Toews vs Q. Hughes

[John Johnson]

You’d think Canucks fans would show some humility after 18 months of telling everyone that Hughes is vastly superior to Makar, and ending so astonishingly wrong.

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Yeah except nobody said this smart one. Also 18 months? Now you're just straight making shit up to make people look bad. Just overall petty my man do better.

 

[John Johnson]

I mean... Yeah?

Toews isn't better then Makar and Girard isn't a #1, but literally everything else you posted is objectively just facts.


So, good point?

Oh right the "fact" that 2 of the 3 best players in the world just so happen to be Avalanche players (according to an unbiased Avs fan). Or the "fact" that Toews is a top 10 Dman all of a sudden after his last 2 season which is actually 82 games worth. Just another generational Avs player. Girard is obviously better than Hughes, and the "fact" that every GM in the league would greatly covet Girard more than Hughes, just so obvious.

 

[Tralfamadore]

When comparing the two in above replacement models

Hughes has a slight edge offensively in driving offense at even strength.
But Toews defensive metrics of the WAR model are substantially higher than Hughes, and his impact short handed also boosts him up.
So the overall impact is Toews.

And yet the majority of his points come off the powerplay.

 

[Tralfamadore]

Oh right the "fact" that 2 of the 3 best players in the world just so happen to be Avalanche players (according to an unbiased Avs fan). Or the "fact" that Toews is a top 10 Dman all of a sudden after his last 2 season which is actually 82 games worth. Just another generational Avs player. Girard is obviously better than Hughes, and the "fact" that every GM in the league would greatly covet Girard more than Hughes, just so obvious.

You say this as if Toews has been around for ages and is just elite now. What if I told you he and Hughes both played their first game in the same season. Do you consider Hughes a top 10 defenseman in the league? If you do, and I think it could be argued, then you're doing so based on only 2 or so seasons.

A team with 2 of the top 3 players in the world is the Oilers not the Avs.

The Girad stuff is nonsense. I don't know who gave you that impression but the overwhelming majority of Avs fans would not take him over Hughes.

You just seem to be making things up because Avs fans want to argue for their guy in a comparison that according to the result is very worth making.

 

[RapidKnight]

I think this is a debate over on-ice results and talent and skill. Hughes is obviously more talented, but Toews puts up better results. In general I take the defenseman who puts up better results, sometimes simple is better, especially for defenders. However talented and skilled defenders are hard to come up and very important. Overall a difficult comparison considering their situations. Teams need both types of defensemen. This gives me shades of the Heiskanen/McAvoy argument.

 

[wetcoast]

You aren't a big hockey fan I take it.

I'm a huge hockey fan and in the 4 games that I have watched Toews for the whole game, I've been extremely impressed.

His positioning, reads and hockey IQ is simply awesome.

Hughes is having a great season but between the 2 Toews is probably having the better one.

One thing that really holds Hughes back from ever winning a Norris is his muffin shot as well.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Is this a joke? Quinn Hughes AINEC

Have you looked at the poll results?

Toews, AIEC.

 

[Avsavsavsavsavs]

One is slightly better at driving offense, one is infinitely better at defense. Toews also plays very well on PP2. Give Toews the offensive zone draws, and pp1 time that Hughes gets and this wouldn't even remotely be a discussion.

 

[saintunspecified]

It's mind-numbing that anybody--let alone 50% of people in this thread, would take Quinn f***ing Hughes over an actual top pair defenseman.

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I've been a Devon Toews fan long before you had any clue who he was. I would pick Quinn Hughes. Devon Toews is an excellent player. The only player I've ever seen that is faster straight-ahead is Michael Grabner. He's very steady, and very smart. He's good positionally. He's never been great at winning tough battles (either in the corners or in front of the net). He's never been the defender that drives the team. I wish NYI had done more to keep him. If I'm projecting 22 y/o creative Quinn Hughes who has had the weight of everything on his shoulders vs. Devon Toews, I'm taking the kid.

 

[RapidKnight]

I've been a Devon Toews fan long before you had any clue who he was. I would pick Quinn Hughes. Devon Toews is an excellent player. The only player I've ever seen that is faster straight-ahead is Michael Grabner. He's very steady, and very smart. He's good positionally. He's never been great at winning tough battles (either in the corners or in front of the net). He's never been the defender that drives the team. I wish NYI had done more to keep him. If I'm projecting 22 y/o creative Quinn Hughes who has had the weight of everything on his shoulders vs. Devon Toews, I'm taking the kid.

This is the problem, right now Toews is better.

 

[saintunspecified]

This is the problem, right now Toews is better.

I don't think Toews, the player, improved more than incrementally since he was on NYI. Fit matters. The team a player is on, the talent that surrounds them, matters.

 

[triggrman]

I don't think Toews, the player, improved more than incrementally since he was on NYI. Fit matters. The team a player is on, the talent that surrounds them, matters.

agreed, also, Toews is 5 years older, that's half a career older.

 

[RapidKnight]

I don't think Toews, the player, improved more than incrementally since he was on NYI. Fit matters. The team a player is on, the talent that surrounds them, matters.

Yes, fit matters. Toews is over a point per game though, this is not just a better fit. He has improved without a doubt. There’s no guarantee Hughes would lead all defenseman in +/- just because he gets traded to the Avs.

 

[RapidKnight]

agreed, also, Toews is 5 years older, that's half a career older.

Why is age relevant?

 

[TheRarestDangles]

I'm a huge hockey fan and in the 4 games that I have watched Toews for the whole game, I've been extremely impressed.

His positioning, reads and hockey IQ is simply awesome.

Hughes is having a great season but between the 2 Toews is probably having the better one.

One thing that really holds Hughes back from ever winning a Norris is his muffin shot as well.

Wetcoast, I played with Quinn Hughes. I've watched Quinn Hughes. Quinn Hughes is a friend of mine. Wetcoast, Devon Toews is no Quinn Hughes.

 

[triggrman]

Why is age relevant?

Sorry I thought we were comparing 2 defensemen. You don't think one being 22 and one being 27 is relevent?

Okay how about Toews doesn't drive the play as well, and his 33% primary assist, versus Hughes 57% kind of supports that, right? Toews has never put up point per game or higher seasons at any level of hockey, did he just figure it out at 27?

 

[Tralfamadore]

Sorry I thought we were comparing 2 defensemen. You don't think one being 22 and one being 27 is relevent?

Okay how about Toews doesn't drive the play as well, and his 33% primary assist, versus Hughes 57% kind of supports that, right? Toews has never put up point per game or higher seasons at any level of hockey, did he just figure it out at 27?

When you say drive the play are we talking solely at 5 on 5/even strength? Because Hughes is outside the top 30 for even strength points among defenseman. He picks up the majority of his points on the PP. Meanwhile Toews is right behind Hedman for even strength points despite playing 14 fewer games. I wouldn't consider racking up primary assist on the powerplay as driving the play. Most of the time it's just passing the puck off for a one-timer or deflection goals.

How many of Hughes 13 assists at even strength are primary assists? In fact Hughes only has 9 assists in 41 games at 5 on 5 this year. I'm sorry but that doesn't scream elite play driver to me.

And yes Toews is a bit older but like Hughes he's only played games in 4 NHL seasons and like Hughes has played under 200 games in the NHL. It's entirely possible he's still getting better as he becomes more accustomed to the NHL. Some players are just late bloomers.

 

[Phrasing]

When you say drive the play are we talking solely at 5 on 5/even strength? Because Hughes is outside the top 30 for even strength points among defenseman. He picks up the majority of his points on the PP. Meanwhile Toews is right behind Hedman for even strength points despite playing 14 fewer games. I wouldn't consider racking up primary assist on the powerplay as driving the play. Most of the time it's just passing the puck off for a one-timer or deflection goals.

How many of Hughes 13 assists at even strength are primary assists? In fact Hughes only has 9 assists in 41 games at 5 on 5 this year. I'm sorry but that doesn't scream elite play driver to me.

And yes Toews is a bit older but like Hughes he's only played games in 4 NHL seasons and like Hughes has played under 200 games in the NHL. It's entirely possible he's still getting better as he becomes more accustomed to the NHL. Some players are just late bloomers.

You don’t think that has to do with his team? He’s a playmaker and what if he doesn’t have the goal support of the players to actually score? Have you seen the difference between the two teams?

 

[Diamonddog01]

Toews is a great player but this is Hughes.

 

[Tralfamadore]

You don’t think that has to do with his team? He’s a playmaker and what if he doesn’t have the goal support of the players to actually score? Have you seen the difference between the two teams?

Ya and that's a valid point to make but that doesn't therefore mean Hughes > Toews just because Vancouver sucks.

And btw I'm obviously biased as an Avs fan so I think Toews is better but I think they are very comparable players. That's why I made the poll. I've just yet to see any Van fans make a legitimate argument for Hughes outside of "his team is worse".

 

[Muffin]

So to sum up this thread:

Toews: Actual stats, actual play and actual advanced stats show he’s clearly the better player

Hughes: IF he played on a better team, IF he developed more he might be better one day.

 

[triggrman]

When you say drive the play are we talking solely at 5 on 5/even strength? Because Hughes is outside the top 30 for even strength points among defenseman. He picks up the majority of his points on the PP. Meanwhile Toews is right behind Hedman for even strength points despite playing 14 fewer games. I wouldn't consider racking up primary assist on the powerplay as driving the play. Most of the time it's just passing the puck off for a one-timer or deflection goals.

How many of Hughes 13 assists at even strength are primary assists? In fact Hughes only has 9 assists in 41 games at 5 on 5 this year. I'm sorry but that doesn't scream elite play driver to me.

And yes Toews is a bit older but like Hughes he's only played games in 4 NHL seasons and like Hughes has played under 200 games in the NHL. It's entirely possible he's still getting better as he becomes more accustomed to the NHL. Some players are just late bloomers.

No, I think you can drive the play from the point on the powerplay too, Roman Josi for sure does this for us.

I don't disagree with some players being late bloomers, that's for sure a thing. But don't think that playing on one of the highest scoring teams doesn't play a huge part of his numbers.

Toews has 6 primary assist at even strength, 2 on the powerplay. Hughes has 11 primary assist at even strength, 5 on the powerplay.

Report Generator - Frozen Tools

 

[Tralfamadore]

No, I think you can drive the play from the point on the powerplay too, Roman Josi for sure does this for us.

I don't disagree with some players being late bloomers, that's for sure a thing. But don't think that playing on one of the highest scoring teams doesn't play a huge part of his numbers.

Toews has 6 primary assist at even strength, 2 on the powerplay. Hughes has 11 primary assist at even strength, 5 on the powerplay.

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Report Generator - Frozen Tools

I'll admit 11 of 13 assists at even strength being primary is an impressive ratio for sure but his even strength production is still very underwhelming. Poor team or not there are a handful of other defenseman with more even strength production than Hughes that play on equally bad or worse teams than Van.

 

[TeddyBare]

And yet the majority of his points come off the powerplay.

That’s why I said driving offense and not points genius.

 

[Tralfamadore]

That’s why I said driving offense and not points genius.

Gotcha.