D. Toews vs Q. Hughes

[lionsDen]

Hughes still living rent free in Avs fans heads

Must be doing something right. he elicits more comments in threads from avs fans than any other fan base including Vancouver.

Well you did see who is in the poll right?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Can Toews get that many even strength points on a team that doesn't have Mackinnon, Landeskog, Rantanen?

In his first 2 seasons (116 games), he was a career 0.95 P/60 at 5v5 while getting mostly 2nd pairing minutes on the 24th lowest scoring team in the NHL.

Since coming to Colorado, he's 1.4 P/60. I'm sure some portion of that is due to the Avs offense, but he's also still just a 4th year player who is continuing to improve in all aspects of his game, so probably not nearly as much as you'd like to think.

 

[elitepete]

In his first 2 seasons (116 games), he was a career 0.95 P/60 at 5v5 while getting mostly 2nd pairing minutes on the 24th lowest scoring team in the NHL.

Since coming to Colorado, he's 1.4 P/60. I'm sure some portion of that is due to the Avs offense, but he's also still just a 4th year player who is continuing to improve in all aspects of his game, so probably not nearly as much as you'd like to think.

If you put Toews on the Canucks and Hughes on the Avs, Hughes points go up and Toews points go down.

 

[Tralfamadore]

If you put Toews on the Canucks and Hughes on the Avs, Hughes points go up and Toews points go down.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

If you put Toews on the Canucks and Hughes on the Avs, Hughes points go up and Toews points go down.

How would Hughes points go up if he's not getting PP1 time on the Avs? Is the Avs 2nd PP unit so much better than the Canucks first unit that he'd score more? Or do you think Hughes would somehow get paired with Makar on the Avs first pairing, and he'd be able to leech a ton of points from the superior player?

 

[elitepete]

How would Hughes points go up if he's not getting PP1 time on the Avs? Is the Avs 2nd PP unit so much better than the Canucks first unit that he'd score more? Or do you think Hughes would somehow get paired with Makar on the Avs first pairing, and he'd be able to leech a ton of points from the superior player?

Lmao so much salt.

He would be giving breakout passes to Mackinnon, Rantanen, Kadri. Do you disagree that he Avs have a much better group of forwards than the Canucks?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Lmao so much salt.

He would be giving breakout passes to Mackinnon, Rantanen, Kadri. Do you disagree that he Avs have a much better group of forwards than the Canucks?

Yes, the Avs top forwards are significantly better. But, Hughes still scores almost half of his points on the PP, where there's a very real chance that he wouldn't be playing with the Avs top unit and would instead be passing to guys like Compher and Nichushkin. Would any increase in ES scoring he might see due to the Avs top forwards actually surpass the decrease he might see from playing with a significantly worse PP unit?

 

[elitepete]

Yes, the Avs top forwards are significantly better. But, Hughes still scores almost half of his points on the PP, where there's a very real chance that he wouldn't be playing with the Avs top unit and would instead be passing to guys like Compher and Nichushkin. Would any increase in ES scoring he might see due to the Avs top forwards actually surpass the decrease he might see from playing with a significantly worse PP unit?

IMO it would. The Canucks as a team are really bad offensively at even strength. 4th worst in the league.

Avs: 1st in pp goals, 2nd in even strength goals
Canucks: 12th in pp goals, 29th in even strength goals

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

IMO it would. The Canucks as a team are really bad offensively at even strength. 4th worst in the league.

Avs: 1st in pp goals, 2nd in even strength goals
Canucks: 12th in pp goals, 29th in even strength goals

And IMO, Toews would drastically increase his PP scoring if he actually got PP1 time, even on a team like the Canucks, while I don't believe this ES scoring would suffer all that much based on his performance on the 2nd pairing for the Isles who aren't much better offensively than the Canucks (if at all).

I'd also point out that most of the Avs PP production comes from the top unit, where Makar is very clearly the QB. Unless Makar gets hurt, the PP goals the top unit scores aren't going to help Hughes pad his numbers.

 

[elitepete]

And IMO, Toews would drastically increase his PP scoring if he actually got PP1 time, even on a team like the Canucks, while I don't believe this ES scoring would suffer all that much based on his performance on the 2nd pairing for the Isles who aren't much better offensively than the Canucks (if at all).

I'd also point out that most of the Avs PP production comes from the top unit, where Makar is very clearly the QB. Unless Makar gets hurt, the PP goals the top unit scores aren't going to help Hughes pad his numbers.

I don't think you understand how bad the Canucks are at scoring even strength goals this season. Those Islanders teams scored a lot more at even strength than this years Canucks.

Canucks have 77 even strength goals, while Colorado has 128. Toews even strength production would see a gigantic drop if he played for the Canucks.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I don't think you understand how bad the Canucks are at scoring even strength goals this season. Those Islanders teams scored a lot more at even strength than this years Canucks.

Canucks have 77 even strength goals, while Colorado has 128. Toews even strength production would see a gigantic drop if he played for the Canucks.

Hughes has scored almost half (63 of 130) of his career points on the PP, so it's not just this season where Hughes has gotten a lot of his points on the PP, and I don't see how them being extra bad at ES this year changes much. Plus, he's playing 25 minutes per game on the Canucks team that is bad at scoring ES goals, so I don't see how he's completely blameless for the team's struggles. Shouldn't a great offensive force like Hughes be able to help his team score more?

 

[elitepete]

Hughes has scored almost half (63 of 130) of his career points on the PP, so it's not just this season where Hughes has gotten a lot of his points on the PP, and I don't see how them being extra bad at ES this year changes much. Plus, he's playing 25 minutes per game on the Canucks team that is bad at scoring ES goals, so I don't see how he's completely blameless for the team's struggles. Shouldn't a great offensive force like Hughes be able to help his team score more?

You can't blame Hughes at all for the Canucks inability to score at even strength, he's a workhorse and plays in every situation. Doesn't really have the freedom to make risky pinches or roam around. He pretty much does everything you could possibly ask for a defenseman when it comes to offensive contribution at even strength. The problem is that forwards like EP and Boeser, and to a lesser extent, Horvat, have not been scoring much this year. Hughes is basically a breakout machine for the Canucks, how is it his fault that the forwards don't do anything with it?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

You can't blame Hughes at all for the Canucks inability to score at even strength, he's a workhorse and plays in every situation. Doesn't really have the freedom to make risky pinches or roam around. He pretty much does everything you could possibly ask for a defenseman when it comes to offensive contribution at even strength. The problem is that forwards like EP and Boeser, and to a lesser extent, Horvat, have not been scoring much this year. Hughes is basically a breakout machine for the Canucks, how is it his fault that the forwards don't do anything with it?

So, just to confirm what you're saying, Hughes' point totals are a product of the forwards he plays with? Or do the forwards only get the blame for his shortcomings while he gets all the credit when the forwards actually score?

 

[tucker3434]

As of now, this shouldn't be close. Toews is better defensively and producing more offensively. Maybe Hughes will be better when he's 27. Maybe not.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Toews is better defensively than Hughes will ever become. Size, strength and reach advantage is clear. Hughes is more creative offensively, while Toews has better tools (slapper, wrister etc). Overall Toews.

 

[elitepete]

So, just to confirm what you're saying, Hughes' point totals are a product of the forwards he plays with? Or do the forwards only get the blame for his shortcomings while he gets all the credit when the forwards actually score?

Umm what?

The only thing that matters is that if Toews played on the Canucks in the same situations that Hughes played in, he'd have way less production. There's no way he would score a lot at even strength on the Canucks, and he's no where near as good on the pp as Hughes.

 

[Arto Kilponen]

This is a couple of days old, but you'll get the idea of the value:

 

[Hammman]

This is a couple of days old, but you'll get the idea of the value:

Not to argue your point at all, but those claims around a team's record when a specific player has a point always make me laugh, especially when it's a good team like the Avalanche. No shit they have a good record when he gets a point; without any other context, that essentially gives them a one goal advantage for each of those games.

 

[RapidKnight]

When it comes to defensemen: Less = More.
Toews makes quick simple plays, as he should on a great team. Toews’ on ice results far exceed Hughes’ no matter Toews’ partner, and he is also less turnover prone.

 

[Tweaky]

Right now, Toews. Career, toss up, too early to tell.

I do like Hughes, and being younger means that in 8 years, he is likely clearly better (barring injuries).

If they swapped teams, I think the P/GP evens out a bit, maybe slightly in Hughes favor. More like both end up around 0.88 or so. But Toews being better defensively would still give him the edge. For now.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Umm what?

The only thing that matters is that if Toews played on the Canucks in the same situations that Hughes played in, he'd have way less production. There's no way he would score a lot at even strength on the Canucks, and he's no where near as good on the pp as Hughes.

Continuing to make the same unsubstantiated claims doesn't mean they are true. So far, your claim that Hughes is significantly better than Toews offensively doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny very well, seeing how we're now in the "blame his teammates" portion of your argument, so I'm not convinced. Toews is a very good ES player, and has been everywhere he's played, so I think his ES numbers would likely be close enough to what they are now, that getting PP1 time would have a much larger impact on his overall production, and his overall production would go up. I also think Hughes' production on the PP would be reduced more by getting PP2 minutes than his ES production would increase because of having Mack/Rantanen/Landeskog on the ice for ~1/3 of his ES minutes.

 

[elitepete]

Continuing to make the same unsubstantiated claims doesn't mean they are true. So far, your claim that Hughes is significantly better than Toews offensively doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny very well, seeing how we're now in the "blame his teammates" portion of your argument, so I'm not convinced. Toews is a very good ES player, and has been everywhere he's played, so I think his ES numbers would likely be close enough to what they are now, that getting PP1 time would have a much larger impact on his overall production, and his overall production would go up. I also think Hughes' production on the PP would be reduced more by getting PP2 minutes than his ES production would increase because of having Mack/Rantanen/Landeskog on the ice for ~1/3 of his ES minutes.

Toews plays on a team that has Kadri on pace for a 120 points, Burakovsky on pace for 70, and Nichuskin close to a ppg. There's absolutely no way Toews would have anywhere near the same production if he was on the Canucks, even if he was on pp1.

 

[RapidKnight]

Toews plays on a team that has Kadri on pace for a 120 points, Burakovsky on pace for 70, and Nichuskin close to a ppg. There's absolutely no way Toews would have anywhere near the same production if he was on the Canucks, even if he was on pp1.

Toews is producing more than double Hughes’ amount at even strength. Toews is 5th on his team in even strength scoring and Hughes is also 5th on the Canucks. How would Toews’ production be no where near the same if he was on the Canucks.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Toews plays on a team that has Kadri on pace for a 120 points, Burakovsky on pace for 70, and Nichuskin close to a ppg. There's absolutely no way Toews would have anywhere near the same production if he was on the Canucks, even if he was on pp1.

0.95 P/60 at ES on the low scoring Isles' 2nd pairing as a 1st and 2nd year player would seem to suggest otherwise. I'd also point out that the Avs struggled to score this year until Toews came back, and I don't think that's just a coincidence. The guy is a dark horse Norris candidate for a reason.

 

[maroon 6]

This thread is comedy